any trends on the mix up in top 14 in the future?

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sangr
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any trends on the mix up in top 14 in the future?

Postby sangr » Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:28 pm

just wondering, are there any predictions or prospects for schools coming into the top 14, or going out, or anything like that?

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theadvancededit
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Re: any trends on the mix up in top 14 in the future?

Postby theadvancededit » Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:34 pm

If any change, UT would be in, GTown would be out.

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AntipodeanPhil
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Re: any trends on the mix up in top 14 in the future?

Postby AntipodeanPhil » Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:42 pm

Next 1-2 years: UT in; G-Town out.

Next 3-5 years: Vandy in; Cornell out,

Emory's demise will help Vandy in the Southern job market; it's size will help it beat Cornell and (especially) G-Town in numbers.

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bjsesq
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Re: any trends on the mix up in top 14 in the future?

Postby bjsesq » Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:44 pm

Northwestern plummets to somewhere in the 20's because of its inability to asses the character of the people it allows to attend.

WSJ_Law
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Re: any trends on the mix up in top 14 in the future?

Postby WSJ_Law » Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:52 pm

Subtle anti-DF trolling

HeavenWood
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Re: any trends on the mix up in top 14 in the future?

Postby HeavenWood » Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:35 pm

AntipodeanPhil wrote:Next 1-2 years: UT in; G-Town out.

Next 3-5 years: Vandy in; Cornell out,

Emory's demise will help Vandy in the Southern job market; it's size will help it beat Cornell and (especially) G-Town in numbers.

I think UT is far too regional to become a T14 mainstay, but I do see it sparring with Georgetown for the foreseeable future. I think Cornell and Vandy will be battling for the #13 slot for a while. Perhaps Vandy could even attach itself to (the low end of) MVPDN.

The REAL question is: will Penn overtake NYU? :twisted: :o :wink:

Schola
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Re: any trends on the mix up in top 14 in the future?

Postby Schola » Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:43 pm

I'm going to boldly sketch a possibility (I won't call it a prediction, b/c that would imply that I think it is likely to happen): Chicago moves up to 4, or even possibly 3 in the next 5 to 10 years. They already have the 3rd most influential faculty, and the Rubenstein is allowing them to cherry pick 20 students (or 10% of their class) from YHS. If, and this is a big if, the are able to continue or expand the Rubenstein after the initial $10mil runs out, then we could see the UofC GPA and LSAT scores continue to rise, and with them UofC's ranking.

And I expect this post to be met with incredulity, if not outrage.
Last edited by Schola on Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

HeavenWood
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Re: any trends on the mix up in top 14 in the future?

Postby HeavenWood » Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:46 pm

Schola wrote:I'm going to boldly sketch a possibility (I won't call it a prediction, but that would imply that I think it will likely happen): Chicago moves up to 4, or even possibly 3 in the next 5 to 10 years. They already have the 3rd most influential faculty, and the Rubenstein is allowing them to cherry pick 20 students (or 10% of their class) from YHS. If, and this is a big if, the are able to continue or expand the Rubenstein after the initial $10mil runs out, then we could see the UofC GPA and LSAT scores continue to rise, and with them UofC's ranking.

And I expect this post to be met with incredulity, if not outrage.

I think it would take a lot more than that to upset the YHS trifecta. The fact Stanford can consistently stay #3 with its MVPDN-level LSAT median speaks leaps and bounds about its peer review rating.

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: any trends on the mix up in top 14 in the future?

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:48 pm

IU-Bloomington money runs out, drops back into the 30's

Cooley adds 3 new campuses, propels self to #1 in the Cooley rankings

Illinois goes on a roller coaster

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omninode
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Re: any trends on the mix up in top 14 in the future?

Postby omninode » Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:58 pm

Mickey Quicknumbers wrote:IU-Bloomington money runs out, drops back into the 30's

Cooley adds 3 new campuses, propels self to #1 in the Cooley rankings

Illinois goes on a roller coaster


Cooley ends up with 15 campuses, sues 6 of them for publishing accurate employment data.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: any trends on the mix up in top 14 in the future?

Postby DoubleChecks » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:02 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
AntipodeanPhil wrote:Next 1-2 years: UT in; G-Town out.

Next 3-5 years: Vandy in; Cornell out,

Emory's demise will help Vandy in the Southern job market; it's size will help it beat Cornell and (especially) G-Town in numbers.

I think UT is far too regional to become a T14 mainstay, but I do see it sparring with Georgetown for the foreseeable future. I think Cornell and Vandy will be battling for the #13 slot for a while. Perhaps Vandy could even attach itself to (the low end of) MVPDN.

The REAL question is: will Penn overtake NYU? :twisted: :o :wink:


Ehhh I don't know about Vandy and Cornell battling over #13 for a while, though I can see them duking it out. UT being too regional to be a lower T14 mainstay is one possibility, but the nature of the TX legal market may make it much more prominent in the years to come, and there are other arguably "regional-focused" schools like Berkeley or even SLS that really just target CA and are T10s. Not too sure what the huge difference (relative to the regional argument) with that is...

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Re: any trends on the mix up in top 14 in the future?

Postby HeavenWood » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:07 pm

DoubleChecks wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
AntipodeanPhil wrote:Next 1-2 years: UT in; G-Town out.

Next 3-5 years: Vandy in; Cornell out,

Emory's demise will help Vandy in the Southern job market; it's size will help it beat Cornell and (especially) G-Town in numbers.

I think UT is far too regional to become a T14 mainstay, but I do see it sparring with Georgetown for the foreseeable future. I think Cornell and Vandy will be battling for the #13 slot for a while. Perhaps Vandy could even attach itself to (the low end of) MVPDN.

The REAL question is: will Penn overtake NYU? :twisted: :o :wink:


Ehhh I don't know about Vandy and Cornell battling over #13 for a while, though I can see them duking it out. UT being too regional to be a lower T14 mainstay is one possibility, but the nature of the TX legal market may make it much more prominent in the years to come, and there are other arguably "regional-focused" schools like Berkeley or even SLS that really just target CA and are T10s. Not too sure what the huge difference (relative to the regional argument) with that is...

I think it's a matter of self-selection with regard to Berkeley (and definitely a matter of self-selection with regard to Stanford). Berkeley focuses on Northern California, but a Berkeley degree + ties shouldn't pose much of an issue in most markets. I feel like UT grads would have a bit of a tougher time outside their home turf. tl;dr schools like Berkeley and Stanford have more potential portability.

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MobyDick
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Re: any trends on the mix up in top 14 in the future?

Postby MobyDick » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:12 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
Schola wrote:I'm going to boldly sketch a possibility (I won't call it a prediction, but that would imply that I think it will likely happen): Chicago moves up to 4, or even possibly 3 in the next 5 to 10 years. They already have the 3rd most influential faculty, and the Rubenstein is allowing them to cherry pick 20 students (or 10% of their class) from YHS. If, and this is a big if, the are able to continue or expand the Rubenstein after the initial $10mil runs out, then we could see the UofC GPA and LSAT scores continue to rise, and with them UofC's ranking.

And I expect this post to be met with incredulity, if not outrage.

I think it would take a lot more than that to upset the YHS trifecta. The fact Stanford can consistently stay #3 with its MVPDN-level LSAT median speaks leaps and bounds about its peer review rating.


I'm not so sure. Stanford's hold on #3 may have more to say about its high GPA median. CCN has had a slightly higher LSAT median for some time but Stanford has stayed close behind Harvard's GPA median. With Chicago's new GPA median, which is the same as Stanford's (3.87), they have a great shot at overtaking Stanford-- maybe even this year.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: any trends on the mix up in top 14 in the future?

Postby DoubleChecks » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:13 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
AntipodeanPhil wrote:Next 1-2 years: UT in; G-Town out.

Next 3-5 years: Vandy in; Cornell out,

Emory's demise will help Vandy in the Southern job market; it's size will help it beat Cornell and (especially) G-Town in numbers.

I think UT is far too regional to become a T14 mainstay, but I do see it sparring with Georgetown for the foreseeable future. I think Cornell and Vandy will be battling for the #13 slot for a while. Perhaps Vandy could even attach itself to (the low end of) MVPDN.

The REAL question is: will Penn overtake NYU? :twisted: :o :wink:


Ehhh I don't know about Vandy and Cornell battling over #13 for a while, though I can see them duking it out. UT being too regional to be a lower T14 mainstay is one possibility, but the nature of the TX legal market may make it much more prominent in the years to come, and there are other arguably "regional-focused" schools like Berkeley or even SLS that really just target CA and are T10s. Not too sure what the huge difference (relative to the regional argument) with that is...

I think it's a matter of self-selection with regard to Berkeley (and definitely a matter of self-selection with regard to Stanford). Berkeley focuses on Northern California, but a Berkeley degree + ties shouldn't pose much of an issue in most markets. I feel like UT grads would have a bit of a tougher time outside their home turf. tl;dr schools like Berkeley and Stanford have more potential portability.


Well of course those two schools have way more potential portability than UT does now, I wouldn't argue that. I'm not saying UT will be overtaking UC Berk or SLS lol. My point is a school that primarily focuses on one market can still be a T14 mainstay.

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Re: any trends on the mix up in top 14 in the future?

Postby HeavenWood » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:14 pm

MobyDick wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
Schola wrote:I'm going to boldly sketch a possibility (I won't call it a prediction, but that would imply that I think it will likely happen): Chicago moves up to 4, or even possibly 3 in the next 5 to 10 years. They already have the 3rd most influential faculty, and the Rubenstein is allowing them to cherry pick 20 students (or 10% of their class) from YHS. If, and this is a big if, the are able to continue or expand the Rubenstein after the initial $10mil runs out, then we could see the UofC GPA and LSAT scores continue to rise, and with them UofC's ranking.

And I expect this post to be met with incredulity, if not outrage.

I think it would take a lot more than that to upset the YHS trifecta. The fact Stanford can consistently stay #3 with its MVPDN-level LSAT median speaks leaps and bounds about its peer review rating.


I'm not so sure. Stanford's hold on #3 may have more to say about its high GPA median. CCN has had a slightly higher LSAT median for some time but Stanford has stayed close behind Harvard's GPA median. With Chicago's new GPA median, which is the same as Stanford's (3.87), they have a great shot at overtaking Stanford-- maybe even this year.

You are aware than GPA median matters much less than LSAT median (and both matter much less than peer rating) right?

HeavenWood
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Re: any trends on the mix up in top 14 in the future?

Postby HeavenWood » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:15 pm

DoubleChecks wrote:Well of course those two schools have way more potential portability than UT does now, I wouldn't argue that. I'm not saying UT will be overtaking UC Berk or SLS lol. My point is a school that primarily focuses on one market can still be a T14 mainstay.

I think the regional vs. national nature of a school would affect its peer review scores, but maybe Texas will set the new precedent.

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MobyDick
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Re: any trends on the mix up in top 14 in the future?

Postby MobyDick » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:20 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
MobyDick wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
Schola wrote:I'm going to boldly sketch a possibility (I won't call it a prediction, but that would imply that I think it will likely happen): Chicago moves up to 4, or even possibly 3 in the next 5 to 10 years. They already have the 3rd most influential faculty, and the Rubenstein is allowing them to cherry pick 20 students (or 10% of their class) from YHS. If, and this is a big if, the are able to continue or expand the Rubenstein after the initial $10mil runs out, then we could see the UofC GPA and LSAT scores continue to rise, and with them UofC's ranking.

And I expect this post to be met with incredulity, if not outrage.

I think it would take a lot more than that to upset the YHS trifecta. The fact Stanford can consistently stay #3 with its MVPDN-level LSAT median speaks leaps and bounds about its peer review rating.


I'm not so sure. Stanford's hold on #3 may have more to say about its high GPA median. CCN has had a slightly higher LSAT median for some time but Stanford has stayed close behind Harvard's GPA median. With Chicago's new GPA median, which is the same as Stanford's (3.87), they have a great shot at overtaking Stanford-- maybe even this year.

You are aware than GPA median matters much less than LSAT median (and both matter much less than peer rating) right?


I understand the importance of peer rating, but I imagine Chicago's is equal to or slightly below Stanford's. As OP mentioned, they already have the 3rd most influential faculty.

Regarding the LSAT, Chicago's LSAT median is higher than Stanford's.

LSAT: Chicago > Stanford
GPA: Chicago = Stanford
Peer Rating (Speculation): Chicago = Stanford
__________________
Chicago > Stanford

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bjsesq
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Re: any trends on the mix up in top 14 in the future?

Postby bjsesq » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:45 pm

MobyDick wrote:LSAT: Chicago > Stanford
GPA: Chicago = Stanford
Peer Rating (Speculation): Chicago = Stanford
__________________
Chicago > Stanford


At least you acknowledge the giant, festering turd you pulled out of your ass.

CanadianWolf
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Re: any trends on the mix up in top 14 in the future?

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:47 pm

Really depends upon how badly US News needs to increase its circulation. And where.

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2014
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Re: any trends on the mix up in top 14 in the future?

Postby 2014 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:49 pm

Cornell isn't going anywhere.

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kwais
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Re: any trends on the mix up in top 14 in the future?

Postby kwais » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:51 pm

2014 wrote:Cornell isn't going anywhere.

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rayiner
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Re: any trends on the mix up in top 14 in the future?

Postby rayiner » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:53 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
MobyDick wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
Schola wrote:I'm going to boldly sketch a possibility (I won't call it a prediction, but that would imply that I think it will likely happen): Chicago moves up to 4, or even possibly 3 in the next 5 to 10 years. They already have the 3rd most influential faculty, and the Rubenstein is allowing them to cherry pick 20 students (or 10% of their class) from YHS. If, and this is a big if, the are able to continue or expand the Rubenstein after the initial $10mil runs out, then we could see the UofC GPA and LSAT scores continue to rise, and with them UofC's ranking.

And I expect this post to be met with incredulity, if not outrage.

I think it would take a lot more than that to upset the YHS trifecta. The fact Stanford can consistently stay #3 with its MVPDN-level LSAT median speaks leaps and bounds about its peer review rating.


I'm not so sure. Stanford's hold on #3 may have more to say about its high GPA median. CCN has had a slightly higher LSAT median for some time but Stanford has stayed close behind Harvard's GPA median. With Chicago's new GPA median, which is the same as Stanford's (3.87), they have a great shot at overtaking Stanford-- maybe even this year.

You are aware than GPA median matters much less than LSAT median (and both matter much less than peer rating) right?


GPA median is weighted less than LSAT median, but because schools are so close together on LSAT median, and because of the way the LSAT is compared (as percentiles instead of as a linear score), the rankings are actually more sensitive to GPA median in the top 20 or so. The big thing that keeps YHS on top, especially Y, is actually spending/capita, an area in which Stanford still has a big edge over Chicago. It's not weighted very heavily, but because the top schools have a very wide range of scores in that category, the rankings are very sensitive to it. It's what keeps Y way ahead of Harvard despite the latter's identical medians and reputation scores.

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MobyDick
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Re: any trends on the mix up in top 14 in the future?

Postby MobyDick » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:55 pm

bjsesq wrote:
MobyDick wrote:LSAT: Chicago > Stanford
GPA: Chicago = Stanford
Peer Rating (Speculation): Chicago = Stanford
__________________
Chicago > Stanford


At least you acknowledge the giant, festering turd you pulled out of your ass.



But isn't any claim concerning Chicago's peer rating in relation to Stanford's speculation? We don't have the data-- at least I don't. Do you have access to this?

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Rotor
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Re: any trends on the mix up in top 14 in the future?

Postby Rotor » Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:14 pm

See, e.g., http://abovethelaw.com/2010/08/can-stan ... t-so-good/

tl;dr version: it's not about LSAT/GPA/Rep. It's all about the benjamins.

Edit to add: apologies for citing ATL as authoritative. I'm on my phone and can't find the analysis they quote.
Last edited by Rotor on Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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blazinswordofjustice
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Re: any trends on the mix up in top 14 in the future?

Postby blazinswordofjustice » Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:15 pm

Mickey Quicknumbers wrote: Cooley adds 3 new campuses, propels self to #1 in the Cooley rankings


better yet, Cooley decides it is better than #1, ranks itself #0 in rankings, slightly beating out pitiful Harvard at #1




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