Overriding the 3x in 2 years LSAT

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Re: Overriding the 3x in 2 years LSAT

Postby LSAT Blog » Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:01 pm

bp shinners wrote:You should definitely ask, but you should also operate under the assumption that you'll get a firm 'No' from LSAC.


+1

When LSAC says "significant extenuating circumstances," they really mean it.

OP, you may end up just having to wait until the 2 years are up before taking it again. It's unlucky timing that LSAC made the policy change this year.

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Re: Overriding the 3x in 2 years LSAT

Postby sandwiches5000 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:07 pm

LSAT Blog wrote:
bp shinners wrote:You should definitely ask, but you should also operate under the assumption that you'll get a firm 'No' from LSAC.


+1

When LSAC says "significant extenuating circumstances," they really mean it.

OP, you may end up just having to wait until the 2 years are up before taking it again. It's unlucky timing that LSAC made the policy change this year.


Yeah. I'm sending in my doctor's note and letter but I understand I will probably be denied. I don't want to wait a year as I've already waited an extra year due to the LSAT. I think I might just suck up the 167 and go to a lower-ranked school than hoped at sticker price.

But I'll be damned if I'm not the top of my class at that lower-ranked school.

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Re: Overriding the 3x in 2 years LSAT

Postby paratactical » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:10 pm

Not retaking when you know you can score better is not just sucking up going to a lower school at sticker, it's also sucking up to the fact that you're putting yourself in a more dangerous position with regards to your job prospects and lifetime earning potential.

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Re: Overriding the 3x in 2 years LSAT

Postby sandwiches5000 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:20 pm

paratactical wrote:Not retaking when you know you can score better is not just sucking up going to a lower school at sticker, it's also sucking up to the fact that you're putting yourself in a more dangerous position with regards to your job prospects and lifetime earning potential.


I understand but I can't wait another year. I've stayed an additional year at a job I am sick of. My only hope is that if they don't approve my retake request I can be work hard and be at the top of a lower-ranked school and perhaps transfer.

I mean, I know I don't have a GREAT shot at the lower-t14 but that's what I'm aiming for, if not something along the lines of GW or USC. It's not like I'm planning on going to the University of Phoenix Law or some crap.

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Re: Overriding the 3x in 2 years LSAT

Postby paratactical » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:26 pm

As long as you realize that you're shooting yourself in the foot because you can't stand your job for the chance to be unemployed in the future.

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Re: Overriding the 3x in 2 years LSAT

Postby Bildungsroman » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:32 pm

Would it dampen your defeatist confidence to point out that 1) everyone you go to school with thinks they're going to be top 10% and 90% of them will be wrong; and 2) There's been no demonstrated correlation between LSAT practice test scores and law school performance, so you'll be going to a school where everyone has academic credentials similar to or better than yours? I understand nobody (except myself) goes into law school expecting to be below median, but you shouldn't go to a law school unless you're willing to graduate from that particular school at the middle of the pack since that's most likely where you'll be.

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Re: Overriding the 3x in 2 years LSAT

Postby Icculus » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:32 pm

sandwiches5000 wrote:
paratactical wrote:Not retaking when you know you can score better is not just sucking up going to a lower school at sticker, it's also sucking up to the fact that you're putting yourself in a more dangerous position with regards to your job prospects and lifetime earning potential.


I understand but I can't wait another year. I've stayed an additional year at a job I am sick of. My only hope is that if they don't approve my retake request I can be work hard and be at the top of a lower-ranked school and perhaps transfer.

I mean, I know I don't have a GREAT shot at the lower-t14 but that's what I'm aiming for, if not something along the lines of GW or USC. It's not like I'm planning on going to the University of Phoenix Law or some crap.


Why can't you wait another year? I never got this logic. You are about to invest $200,000+ and three years of your life on this decision. I would think that you would want to give yourself every possible advantage. This is not a decision you get to do over. What's worse? spending a year at a job you're sick of (doesn't even sound like you hate it) or applying now and not placing yourself into the best possible situation to succeed? You can always wait, you always have a choice, especially since you're not unemployed. /unsolicited advice.

Edited:punctuation
Last edited by Icculus on Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Overriding the 3x in 2 years LSAT

Postby Icculus » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:35 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:but you shouldn't go to a law school unless you're willing to graduate from that particular school at the middle of the pack since that's most likely where you'll be.


This is credited, and was the best advice I got when I first found TLS. Plus OP, how old are you? I always find it funny when people in their early 20s are absolutely adamant they cannot wait, as if law school is going to disappear on them.

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Re: Overriding the 3x in 2 years LSAT

Postby paratactical » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:38 pm

Icculus wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:but you shouldn't go to a law school unless you're willing to graduate from that particular school at the middle of the pack since that's most likely where you'll be.


This is credited, and was the best advice I got when I first found TLS. Plus OP, how old are you? I always find it funny when people in their early 20s are absolutely adamant they cannot wait, as if law school is going to disappear on them.

It makes me wonder as well. Especially about how someone can handle a legal job if waiting another year at a shit job is so daunting and impossible.

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Re: Overriding the 3x in 2 years LSAT

Postby sandwiches5000 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:40 pm

Icculus wrote:
sandwiches5000 wrote:
paratactical wrote:Not retaking when you know you can score better is not just sucking up going to a lower school at sticker, it's also sucking up to the fact that you're putting yourself in a more dangerous position with regards to your job prospects and lifetime earning potential.


I understand but I can't wait another year. I've stayed an additional year at a job I am sick of. My only hope is that if they don't approve my retake request I can be work hard and be at the top of a lower-ranked school and perhaps transfer.

I mean, I know I don't have a GREAT shot at the lower-t14 but that's what I'm aiming for, if not something along the lines of GW or USC. It's not like I'm planning on going to the University of Phoenix Law or some crap.


Why can't you wait another year? I never got this logic. You are about to invest $200,000+ and three years of your life on this decision. I would think that you would want to give yourself every possible advantage. This is not a decision you get to do over. What's worse, spending a year at a job you're sick of (doesn't even sound like you hate it) or applying now and not placing yourself into the best possible situation to succeed. You can always wait, you always have a choice, especially since you're not unemployed. /unsolicited advice.


You are right. I don't want to settle. I'll see what happens with my request for another sitting/my cycle. I put so much of my time and effort into this LSAT studying for this time around and I really felt like I had it this time. It's a big shift going from where I thought I'd be for sure in at schools like Michigan with possible $ to where they are my far-off reaches.

I just turned 24.

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Re: Overriding the 3x in 2 years LSAT

Postby Icculus » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:50 pm

sandwiches5000 wrote:I just turned 24.


Dude, you have plenty of time, trust me. Wait and get to where you really want to be. On a side note, there are days you will sick of any job you have, even if it's your dream job.

sandwiches5000 wrote:It's a big shift going from where I thought I'd be for sure in at schools like Michigan with possible $ to where they are my far-off reaches.


Think about that, are you ready to just accept GW or USC? Good luck.

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Re: Overriding the 3x in 2 years LSAT

Postby paratactical » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:53 pm

Trust me. I know how much it blows. But not giving in to my LSAT rape is one of the best decisions I've ever made.

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Re: Overriding the 3x in 2 years LSAT

Postby sandwiches5000 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:04 pm

paratactical wrote:Trust me. I know how much it blows. But not giving in to my LSAT rape is one of the best decisions I've ever made.


I should've just worn a damn diaper to the test.

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Re: Overriding the 3x in 2 years LSAT

Postby Icculus » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:12 pm

sandwiches5000 wrote:
paratactical wrote:Trust me. I know how much it blows. But not giving in to my LSAT rape is one of the best decisions I've ever made.


I should've just worn a damn diaper to the test.


And now you know what to do next time...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pele5vptVgc

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Re: Overriding the 3x in 2 years LSAT

Postby sandwiches5000 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:22 pm

Icculus wrote:
sandwiches5000 wrote:
paratactical wrote:Trust me. I know how much it blows. But not giving in to my LSAT rape is one of the best decisions I've ever made.


I should've just worn a damn diaper to the test.


And now you know what to do next time...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pele5vptVgc


LOL. I actually have been diagnosed with a stomach condition though. I wonder if that will help my case with LSAC. I was diagnosed in 2007 and was hospitalized and it rarely flares up. I thought it was a parasite but the doctor told me it was likely stress exaggerating it.

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Re: Overriding the 3x in 2 years LSAT

Postby 99.9luft » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:22 pm

OP, take another year, trust me. I was in your shoes re taking the LSAT when i wasn't ready/taking it with 5hr energy and messing up/wanting to pee myself and messing up. On top of all that, I was denied the retake permission earlier this summer. Was lost at first, but then got an amazing, career-changing job and now laugh at my own worries and how unimportant the LSAT is in the large scheme of things (i am a couple of years older than you, too). I am allowed to take the June 2012 administration. It is so much better going into it now knowing that if i get the same crappy score, I can always keep my current job and this non-LS plan B gives me a certain level of confidence to perform well under pressure of the June test. That's the pessimist. Meanwhile, the optimist in me is thinking of that long-coveted 175 that would send me to a good school. The point is - evaluate your options well and be mindful of the opportunity cost.

Also, don't double-down on the LSAT. Get an interesting job, go to the gym, don't make the LSAT the bane of your existence or the only thing on your mind 24/7 for the next year. I am glad you are now thinking of taking a year off and retaking. It is now up to you to make it a great year. I remember being slightly depressed about the prospect of delaying LS for another year, but now I think it is the best decision I have made this year.

PM me if you have questions.

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Re: Overriding the 3x in 2 years LSAT

Postby sandwiches5000 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:26 pm

99.9luft wrote:OP, take another year, trust me. I was in your shoes re taking the LSAT when i wasn't ready/taking it with 5hr energy and messing up/wanting to pee myself and messing up. On top of all that, I was denied the retake permission earlier this summer. Was lost at first, but then got an amazing, career-changing job and now laugh at my own worries and how unimportant the LSAT is in the large scheme of things (i am a couple of years older than you, too). I am allowed to take the June 2012 administration. It is so much better going into it now knowing that if i get the same crappy score, I can always keep my current job and this non-LS plan B gives me a certain level of confidence to perform well under pressure of the June test. That's the pessimist. Meanwhile, the optimist in me is thinking of that long-coveted 175 that would send me to a good school. The point is - evaluate your options well and be mindful of the opportunity cost.

Also, don't double-down on the LSAT. Get an interesting job, go to the gym, don't make the LSAT the bane of your existence or the only thing on your mind 24/7 for the next year. I am glad you are now thinking of taking a year off and retaking. It is now up to you to make it a great year. I remember being slightly depressed about the prospect of delaying LS for another year, but now I think it is the best decision I have made this year.

PM me if you have questions.


Wow. Yeah. I think the fact that I obsessed about the LSAT for months and months on end (before June, then after getting my score before my Oct retake) really played a factor in the level of stress that led me to my demise. It was all I thought about and I would freak out when I would get less than perfect on any section. Nothing else mattered in my life aside from getting that score. I saw friends but I didn't really care about anything else aside from the LSAT.

Thanks a lot for your insight, I'll let you know if I have any qs.

EDIT: If you don't get 175 in June, are you not going to go to LS?

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Re: Overriding the 3x in 2 years LSAT

Postby Icculus » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:28 pm

sandwiches5000 wrote:
Icculus wrote:
sandwiches5000 wrote:
paratactical wrote:Trust me. I know how much it blows. But not giving in to my LSAT rape is one of the best decisions I've ever made.


I should've just worn a damn diaper to the test.


And now you know what to do next time...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pele5vptVgc


LOL. I actually have been diagnosed with a stomach condition though. I wonder if that will help my case with LSAC. I was diagnosed in 2007 and was hospitalized and it rarely flares up. I thought it was a parasite but the doctor told me it was likely stress exaggerating it.

OP, I'm all for you attempting to get the waiver, if it works out, great, let us know. My advice is only if LSAC denies you. In all seriousness, good luck.

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Re: Overriding the 3x in 2 years LSAT

Postby 99.9luft » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:37 pm

I know exactly what you mean. I was too obsessed with the LSAT in the past year. I was averaging 171 in the spring on 25 or so PTs. Considering my GPA, if I get 170+ in June, I will go to LS. A 175, though, would send me to my dream school, while a 170 to a local (but still T15) school.

As far as not going to LS period...sometimes I think that an 80-100k job with a great lifestyle (9-5, weekends, vacations, being there for your gf/bf, etc) sounds better than ~200k in law school debt that forces you into a 160k biglaw job that makes you a neurotic, bitter slave with a shitty lifestyle. On weekends, I like the former. On weekdays, the latter. C'est la vie.

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Re: Overriding the 3x in 2 years LSAT

Postby Icculus » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:44 pm

99.9luft wrote:I think that an 80-100k job with a great lifestyle (9-5, weekends, vacations, being there for your gf/bf, etc) sounds better than ~200k in law school debt that forces you into a 160k biglaw job that makes you a neurotic, bitter slave with a shitty lifestyle. On weekends, I like the former. On weekdays, the latter. C'est la vie.


If you have that job, you should keep it. I know very few $50K jobs that are 9-5 w/weekends, vacations, and benefits. These 80K-100K dream jobs that you just described are very rare. In fact, I don't think I know anyone who has what you describe. If you find it, keep it.

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Re: Overriding the 3x in 2 years LSAT

Postby nelaw2010 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:44 pm

That's what you get for not wearing an adult diapers.

All jokes aside, can you get a doctor to corroborate your story? I think it is compelling to tell them that you had a severe viral infection that resulted in you losing control of your bowels. Surely the LSAC doesn't want people literally shitting themselves during the test.

What if this is not deemed a "substantial" reason? Then next time this happens to a student, they should shit themselves and continue taking the test as if nothing happened? Wouldn't then the other students in the room then be able to claim that a substantial reason prevented them from taking the exam?

I think if you can get proof: 1) airline ticket where you travelled to, 2) doctor's note, 3) friends who you traveled with that also got sick, then the LSAC might let you take it again.

Let us know what they say.

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Re: Overriding the 3x in 2 years LSAT

Postby 99.9luft » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:49 pm

Icculus wrote:
99.9luft wrote:I think that an 80-100k job with a great lifestyle (9-5, weekends, vacations, being there for your gf/bf, etc) sounds better than ~200k in law school debt that forces you into a 160k biglaw job that makes you a neurotic, bitter slave with a shitty lifestyle. On weekends, I like the former. On weekdays, the latter. C'est la vie.


If you have that job, you should keep it. I know very few $50K jobs that are 9-5 w/weekends, vacations, and benefits. These 80K-100K dream jobs that you just described are very rare. In fact, I don't think I know anyone who has what you describe. If you find it, keep it.


TBF, no, I don't have this job now, but if i stay with my company for 5 years, I will. It may be even more if I do a part-time MBA. I don't know, i still like the prestige of being a lawyer....but not its biglaw reality (i guess going in-house or private practice is better, but you still have to slave for several years in Biglaw to even get those). I'm still undecided, but yes, I agree with you...if i had THAT kind of salary now, i would not go to LS at all. The problem is that it's all in the long-run.

P.S. Sorry for stealing this thread, OP. Didn't mean to do that.

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Re: Overriding the 3x in 2 years LSAT

Postby sandwiches5000 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:59 pm

99.9luft wrote:
Icculus wrote:
99.9luft wrote:I think that an 80-100k job with a great lifestyle (9-5, weekends, vacations, being there for your gf/bf, etc) sounds better than ~200k in law school debt that forces you into a 160k biglaw job that makes you a neurotic, bitter slave with a shitty lifestyle. On weekends, I like the former. On weekdays, the latter. C'est la vie.


If you have that job, you should keep it. I know very few $50K jobs that are 9-5 w/weekends, vacations, and benefits. These 80K-100K dream jobs that you just described are very rare. In fact, I don't think I know anyone who has what you describe. If you find it, keep it.


TBF, no, I don't have this job now, but if i stay with my company for 5 years, I will. It may be even more if I do a part-time MBA. I don't know, i still like the prestige of being a lawyer....but not its biglaw reality (i guess going in-house or private practice is better, but you still have to slave for several years in Biglaw to even get those). I'm still undecided, but yes, I agree with you...if i had THAT kind of salary now, i would not go to LS at all. The problem is that it's all in the long-run.

P.S. Sorry for stealing this thread, OP. Didn't mean to do that.


No worries, I appreciate hearing about your experiences. I love your username, btw. Totally rocked out to that song (German and all!) on karaoke the day before my test. :P

As for my stomach problems. Well, I'm living in South Korea and I have IBS. Not a huge deal but it can be a big problem and I was hospitalized as I mentioned earlier. It can flare up from time to time and it hasn't been this bad in years. Since it gets bad under stress, I was taking medication to control it but it made me super sleepy during my first LSAT administration. I had no problems the second time but then messed up somehow, forcing me to sit again. :(

I have a doctor's note for the first exam in which she attests to the medication making me sleepy but I don't know if I should use that because she says I'm on new medication but "okay" now. Clearly, I'm not.

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Re: Overriding the 3x in 2 years LSAT

Postby sandwiches5000 » Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:23 am

Bildungsroman wrote:Would it dampen your defeatist confidence to point out that 1) everyone you go to school with thinks they're going to be top 10% and 90% of them will be wrong; and 2) There's been no demonstrated correlation between LSAT practice test scores and law school performance, so you'll be going to a school where everyone has academic credentials similar to or better than yours? I understand nobody (except myself) goes into law school expecting to be below median, but you shouldn't go to a law school unless you're willing to graduate from that particular school at the middle of the pack since that's most likely where you'll be.


I just checked out your profile... Do you regret your decision not to retake?

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Re: Overriding the 3x in 2 years LSAT

Postby Bildungsroman » Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:01 pm

sandwiches5000 wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:Would it dampen your defeatist confidence to point out that 1) everyone you go to school with thinks they're going to be top 10% and 90% of them will be wrong; and 2) There's been no demonstrated correlation between LSAT practice test scores and law school performance, so you'll be going to a school where everyone has academic credentials similar to or better than yours? I understand nobody (except myself) goes into law school expecting to be below median, but you shouldn't go to a law school unless you're willing to graduate from that particular school at the middle of the pack since that's most likely where you'll be.


I just checked out your profile... Do you regret your decision not to retake?

Not at all, but then, my test day score was totally in line with my practice tests. If I were in your position and had consistently scored significantly above my actual performance on PTs, I would have retaken. I know I wouldn't be happy in law school if my heart were somewhere else and I felt cheated by where I was attending, and it sounds like you've got big ambitions so I think "settling" would be a bad idea.




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