U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

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anthropologieaddict
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby anthropologieaddict » Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:54 pm

what's the point?
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scammedhard
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby scammedhard » Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:56 pm

NiccoloA wrote:Anyone think that the ABA will try to use this to send a message? Or do they really just only care when you get caught?


Tier 2 seems like a possibility to me. Damn.

I think the ABA should act harshly against these "mistakes." I doubt it will. Even if it wants to act harshly, its very own Villanova precedent is tying its hands. Why punish Illinois harshly when Villanova got a slap on the wrist for the exact same "mistake"?

sparty99
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby sparty99 » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:06 pm

danquayle wrote:
sparty99 wrote:My stats are the following:

(1) 3.6 GPA and was a member of my school's honors college program
(2) 140 - 145 LSAT
(3) Graduated from a well known, Big 10 University - Business Major
(4) African American Male
(5) Worked in strategy consulting at Accenture
(6) Studied abroad

My LSAT does not represent my academic ability as I scored a 950 out of 1600 on the SAT.
I recently took the December test and will take the February test. I am applying for Fall 2011, both full time and part time programs.


This guy has to be one of the greatest flames of all time. I don't believe this person can actually exist.


No flame here, bro. It's called an LSAT addendum. Deal. Out.

sparty99
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby sparty99 » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:12 pm

Illinois should start worrying about their Big 10 football team....Not a lawschool scandal. The loses are imminent.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Bildungsroman » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:21 pm

I think the tepid response of some people to this scandal because "schools all lie about their employment numbers anyway" is misguided and shows how law students in this country are just bending over and taking it. Maybe a couple more schools will get caught up in flagrant fabrications and we'll finally have enough pressure on the ABA (and the state governments, at least in the case of public law schools) to make law school reporting more comprehensive and subject to significantly more oversight. Until schools start seeing some real penalties (and not the ABA's "tell everyone you're very sorry" approach they took with Villanova) for their lies, they're going to keep fucking us.


ALSO, HAS ANYONE POINTED OUT YET THAT SPARTY IS DUMB?

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zozin
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby zozin » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:24 pm

soj wrote:Just getting back on topic, though, since medians changed from 167/3.6 last year to 163/3.7 this year, I'm guessing it's true that too many reverse splitters and too few splitters matriculated. Obviously not a good trade-off in medians, but it's not too unreasonable. I guess this kind of big fluctuation can happen if you play the numbers game as many schools do.


Honestly, I think IU played a huge part in this whole thing. When you start throwing $120K at everyone with a LSAT over 167, and your ranking is higher than UIUC's, you're going to steal a bunch of people away.

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Thirteen
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Thirteen » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:34 pm

zozin wrote:
soj wrote:Just getting back on topic, though, since medians changed from 167/3.6 last year to 163/3.7 this year, I'm guessing it's true that too many reverse splitters and too few splitters matriculated. Obviously not a good trade-off in medians, but it's not too unreasonable. I guess this kind of big fluctuation can happen if you play the numbers game as many schools do.


Honestly, I think IU played a huge part in this whole thing. When you start throwing $120K at everyone with a LSAT over 167, and your ranking is higher than UIUC's, you're going to steal a bunch of people away.


Shit, I should have applied there.

I talked to a few 3L friends that go to Illinois, and they are all PISSED. I don't know if they would have a cause of action, but a few were starting to kick around the idea of a lawsuit.

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masochist
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby masochist » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:29 pm

Everybody here is worried about whether or not UIUC's recruitment and placement of students. Long-term, I think the bigger worry is recruitment and retention of professors. If they fire the dean (and I don't think they will if there is any possible way to avoid it), then they will have removed two deans in two years (or is it three years, I can't remember exactly). What dean from another school is going to be willing to take the next turn on the chopping block? The trustee's are left with a Hobson's choice: take a dean from a much lower ranked school or continue with an interim dean for an indefinite period of time. A dean that is perceived as a step down will freak out the faculty who depend upon the prestige of U of I to give them the ability to make a lateral transfer or step up to the next tier. If the academic prestige of U of I falls one tier, it is effectively a demotion for their faculty. They will have to compete as if they were taking a step up in order to secure a position equivalent to the one they occupied at U of I circa 2010.

No dean is just as bad. No dean means that nobody has any idea what the direction and priorities of the school will be long term. Stability in institutional support is important for faculty scholarship, and this is impossible to achieve with an interim dean.

Once one star prof gets skittish and bolts, the other start looking. If a few leave, the exodus will begin.

Faculty has been one of the strengths of U of I. If they lose their faculty, the actual quality of U of I's law school (which is imperfectly reflected in USNWR if it is reflected at all) could be permanently impaired. In the long-term, quality schools produce quality lawyers who are hired by quality firms that impress quality applicants. Compromising the actual quality of U of I is likely to be more devastating in the end than a temporary dip in USNWR.


TL;DR version: I hope they can find a way to keep the dean and retain faculty. If they can, they will recover sooner or later. That might not help students this year or next, but it will be of benefit to them for the rest of their careers.

HyeMart
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby HyeMart » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:30 pm

did this come out in the threat? http://www.uillinois.edu/our/news/2011/Sept28.Law.cfm

edit: it did, but ill leave here for anybody who missed it

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Helmholtz
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Helmholtz » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:48 pm

Nightrunner wrote:
HyeMart wrote:did this come out in the threat? http://www.uillinois.edu/our/news/2011/Sept28.Law.cfm

Forensic analysis was conducted on the original LSAT and GPA data that had been provided by the Law School Admissions Council (LSAC), the national clearinghouse for law school admissions, to determine and verify the accurate profile data.

Translation: We're going to call this "Forensic analysis," because that makes it seem somewhat complicated. We're really just doing 4th grade math, but if you think it takes "forensic analysis" to figure it out, you might be willing to buy that it wasn't on purpose.


Image

"We were all in shock when we got the results back. It turns out that 163 is the median of 161, 163, and 164—not the 182 Dean Pless was insisting was correct."

HyeMart
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby HyeMart » Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:05 pm

no matter all the positive you think of pless, he's just a manipulative dick. I hope everybody at UI gets a class action going against the school. get your fucking tuition paid for

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birdlaw117
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby birdlaw117 » Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:46 pm

How come they haven't released the GPA data to the 1/100th? Rounding it to the 1/10th leaves a big margin, so we don't know how big the GPA misrepresentations were...

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tennisballs
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby tennisballs » Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:53 pm

sparty99 wrote:Illinois should start worrying about their Big 10 football team....Not a lawschool scandal. The loses are imminent.


.
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Wart
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Wart » Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:36 pm

Was at the fields tonight for softball league. Saw "Team Pless" (the faculty team) playing. Wasn't suprised to find out that their team is actually 2-3, not 5-0 like it said in the standings.

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romothesavior
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby romothesavior » Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:37 pm

Wart wrote:Was at the fields tonight for softball league. Saw "Team Pless" (the faculty team) playing. Wasn't suprised to find out that their team is actually 2-3, not 5-0 like it said in the standings.

LOL

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BackToTheOldHouse
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby BackToTheOldHouse » Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:06 pm

Wart wrote:Was at the fields tonight for softball league. Saw "Team Pless" (the faculty team) playing. Wasn't suprised to find out that their team is actually 2-3, not 5-0 like it said in the standings.

Hahahahaha!

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YourCaptain
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby YourCaptain » Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:27 pm

Wart wrote:Was at the fields tonight for softball league. Saw "Team Pless" (the faculty team) playing. Wasn't suprised to find out that their team is actually 2-3, not 5-0 like it said in the standings.


I lol'd hard

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mattviphky
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby mattviphky » Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:04 am

sparty99 wrote:http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=140660&p=4034776#p4034776

So uh, 140?

Lol wow, pathetic. No wonder this yahoo can't structure a coherent argument. He obviously sucks at logic.[/quote]

Don't be trying to make me feel inferior, bro. My school is paid for and that's all you need to be concerned about.[/quote]


I don't think anyone actually believes your story, bro.[/quote]


That is none of my concern. My bank account believes my story.[/quote]


I didn't know they let 12 year olds into law school, that's awesome. Well I guess I should have realized since the only way to explain your lsat score is a 6th grade reading level.

I feel really bad for these students, although I don't know if the scandal will effect the students as much as some people say it will. I mean, it's not their fault. However, the faculty will probably suffer a great deal. I don't know how faculty hiring works, but i think the prestige of your school would play a significant role.

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Indifferent
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Indifferent » Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:39 am

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... _rankings/

At this point, Morse sees no need for U.S. News to change its procedures. But, he says, if any change is needed, the ABA is in the better position to audit, spot-check or otherwise review the accuracy of the information provided by the law schools it accredits.

The question for the ABA, he suggests, is "Do they feel these [data reporting errors] are serious enough … that they need to take more steps than they’re taking now to ensure data integrity?”

A representative of the ABA's Section of Legal Education and Admissions to the Bar is traveling and could not immediately be reached for comment.


Will they act? Doubtful.

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Fri Sep 30, 2011 1:16 am

I'm sure I'm missing something, but I can't for the life of me figure out the hesitancy for auditing medians. If the ABA gave me a thousand bucks and a 24 pack of mountain dew I could probably do all 200+ schools for the last three years in a week.

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BackToTheOldHouse
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby BackToTheOldHouse » Fri Sep 30, 2011 1:26 am

Mickey Quicknumbers wrote:I'm sure I'm missing something, but I can't for the life of me figure out the hesitancy for auditing medians. If the ABA gave me a thousand bucks and a 24 pack of mountain dew dr. pepper I could probably do all 200+ schools for the last three years in a week.

+1: ftfy

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Fri Sep 30, 2011 1:30 am

BackToTheOldHouse wrote:
Mickey Quicknumbers wrote:I'm sure I'm missing something, but I can't for the life of me figure out the hesitancy for auditing medians. If the ABA gave me a thousand bucks and a 24 pack of mountain dew dr. pepper I could probably do all 200+ schools for the last three years in a week.

+1: ftfy

No, you've broken it. Now the audits will never ever happen. This is the worst thing.

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edgarfigaro
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby edgarfigaro » Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:43 am

f7 wrote:
Mickey Quicknumbers wrote:I'm sure I'm missing something, but I can't for the life of me figure out the hesitancy for auditing medians. If the ABA gave me a thousand bucks and a 24 pack of mountain dew I could probably do all 200+ schools for the last three years in a week.

Not sure if srs.


it's not that hard...if the LSAC has the average of every undergrad institution, surely they can quickly figure out the medians for each law school. Hell, why isn't the LSAC in charge of putting out the LSAT/GPA medians already? Seems like that'd end all the controversies immediately.

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Unitas
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Unitas » Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:53 am

edgarfigaro wrote:
f7 wrote:
Mickey Quicknumbers wrote:I'm sure I'm missing something, but I can't for the life of me figure out the hesitancy for auditing medians. If the ABA gave me a thousand bucks and a 24 pack of mountain dew I could probably do all 200+ schools for the last three years in a week.

Not sure if srs.


it's not that hard...if the LSAC has the average of every undergrad institution, surely they can quickly figure out the medians for each law school. Hell, why isn't the LSAC in charge of putting out the LSAT/GPA medians already? Seems like that'd end all the controversies immediately.


Re: hesitancy to audit medians: if they find out many schools are lying it looks bad. It is entirely possible many schools are lying, therefore the ABA does not want to know. Ignorance is bliss, see new ABA policy on job reporting.

I could see them stating that going forward they must verify all medians through LSAC without doing any previous audits to ensure future compliance without digging into the past. It's what I'd do. It would suck for Villanova and Illinois, but would soften the blow for students everywhere else where the school may have been cheating.

nucky thompson
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby nucky thompson » Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:26 am

Unitas wrote:
edgarfigaro wrote:
f7 wrote:
Mickey Quicknumbers wrote:I'm sure I'm missing something, but I can't for the life of me figure out the hesitancy for auditing medians. If the ABA gave me a thousand bucks and a 24 pack of mountain dew I could probably do all 200+ schools for the last three years in a week.

Not sure if srs.


it's not that hard...if the LSAC has the average of every undergrad institution, surely they can quickly figure out the medians for each law school. Hell, why isn't the LSAC in charge of putting out the LSAT/GPA medians already? Seems like that'd end all the controversies immediately.


Re: hesitancy to audit medians: if they find out many schools are lying it looks bad. It is entirely possible many schools are lying, therefore the ABA does not want to know. Ignorance is bliss, see new ABA policy on job reporting.

I could see them stating that going forward they must verify all medians through LSAC without doing any previous audits to ensure future compliance without digging into the past. It's what I'd do. It would suck for Villanova and Illinois, but would soften the blow for students everywhere else where the school may have been cheating.




Self interest, for individuals and institutions, typically guides behavior. As others have mentioned, uncovering widespread data manipulation looks even worse for the ABA than the individual school IMO - These reported numbers have great influence over the success/failure of a given law school, but there is very little oversight. Not sure how many schools are guilty of this, but given the current incentive/low risk of getting caught and or little punishment it almost seems intuitive schools would change data - yet the ABA essentially uses a "good-faith" policy regarding number reporting.



The ABA would look foolish if audits were conducted because it would expose extremely weak oversight mechanisms - It is not hard to see how the reporting procedures coupled with how US News Rankings work would create a ripe environment for deception/fraud




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