U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

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birdlaw117
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby birdlaw117 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:40 pm

splittinghairs wrote:Frankly its quite easy for the ABA to fix this problem of misreporting the LSAT, all they have to do is ask LSAC to release the data for each law school.

The fact that the ABA wont do something so easy despite having two schools get caught already suggests that they are scared of just how widespread the problem is throughout the country. Imagine how hard the legal academic system's reputation would be affected if it turns out that say 10 schools did this. Frankly the ABA is deliberately ignoring the truth because of how much is at stake, this reminds me of willful blindness and the ostrich instruction.

They would have to match it with the matriculants. Since I don't think that is reported to the LSAC, it will still be somewhat in the hands of the schools. But yeah, there is definitely a way that it could happen without a huge additional burden.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby splittinghairs » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:46 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:
splittinghairs wrote:Frankly its quite easy for the ABA to fix this problem of misreporting the LSAT, all they have to do is ask LSAC to release the data for each law school.

The fact that the ABA wont do something so easy despite having two schools get caught already suggests that they are scared of just how widespread the problem is throughout the country. Imagine how hard the legal academic system's reputation would be affected if it turns out that say 10 schools did this. Frankly the ABA is deliberately ignoring the truth because of how much is at stake, this reminds me of willful blindness and the ostrich instruction.

They would have to match it with the matriculants. Since I don't think that is reported to the LSAC, it will still be somewhat in the hands of the schools. But yeah, there is definitely a way that it could happen without a huge additional burden.


I think ABA can just ask LSAC to request from the law schools all of the LSAC student#s for each class, then LSAC can easily compute the medians based off of the LSAC numbers.

You might think well what prevents the schools from providing false lsac numbers? Well i'd imagine its kinda hard to make up LSAC numbers but perhaps the adcoms may use LSAC numbers of students they accepted rather than the LSAC numbers of matriculants. But to solve that problem LSAC can ask for a list of names of matriculants and match to the LSAC numbers to make sure its legit.

Theres gotta be a way to make sure the list of matriculants are correct.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby sparty99 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:49 pm

OMG, get serious. This scandal will have almost no effect on hiring and I don't know why people are acting like it is a big deal. If anything, it is funny. Who cares if their ranking falls. The same employers who recruited last year, will be at Illini-Champaign this year. In two years this will all be forgotten. My undergrad had riots, did that change anything? No. It just made for good news for a few months.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby tmon » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:52 pm

sparty99 wrote:OMG, get serious. This scandal will have almost no effect on hiring and I don't know why people are acting like it is a big deal. If anything, it is funny. Who cares if their ranking falls. The same employers who recruited last year, will be at Illini-Champaign this year. In two years this will all be forgotten. My undergrad had riots, did that change anything? No. It just made for good news for a few months.

Students being retarded and the school's decision makers intentionally falsifying data are totally the same. Totally.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby birdlaw117 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:53 pm

sparty99 wrote:OMG, get serious. This scandal will have almost no effect on hiring and I don't know why people are acting like it is a big deal. If anything, it is funny. Who cares if their ranking falls. The same employers who recruited last year, will be at Illini-Champaign this year. In two years this will all be forgotten. My undergrad had riots, did that change anything? No. It just made for good news for a few months.

Clients care where the lawyers come from. Rankings play a role in that. Employers really only care about what their clients care about. Therefore, I think it will impact hiring.

I hate to say that though because, obviously, the students are the big victims in this whole situation.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby adammac17 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:03 pm

Clients care where the lawyers come from. Rankings play a role in that. [/quote]

WHOA WHOA WHOA, im with you but i have to object to the latter portion. Clients care about ranking?!? yeah they have some knowledge that NYC is a better school than UCLA and Duke is better than UNC but i dont think clients are AT ALL concerned with rankings outside of the T-14. Its completely untrue to suggest that a client in Chicago is going to know or care that someone from GW (or more likely after this W&M or UNC) is higher ranked than someone at UIUC. Scandal or no scandal.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby splittinghairs » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:05 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:
sparty99 wrote:OMG, get serious. This scandal will have almost no effect on hiring and I don't know why people are acting like it is a big deal. If anything, it is funny. Who cares if their ranking falls. The same employers who recruited last year, will be at Illini-Champaign this year. In two years this will all be forgotten. My undergrad had riots, did that change anything? No. It just made for good news for a few months.

Clients care where the lawyers come from. Rankings play a role in that. Employers really only care about what their clients care about. Therefore, I think it will impact hiring.

I hate to say that though because, obviously, the students are the big victims in this whole situation.


So i realize what im about to say may upset some Illinois ppl but oh well.
In one sense yes, the class of 2014 UIUC are "victims" esp compared to their situation before the scandal.

However, if you look at it beyond that. Median of 163 means that more than 50% of UIUC students scored 163 or less. Where would those ppl have ended up if they didnt chose illinois? probably a school ranked in the 30-50 range. But as it turned out they actually benefited from the law school's lies because by all rights they should never have been accepted into a top 20 school with their lsat scores anyways. So lets say UIUC drops to 30s or 40s, they are essentially at a school where they wouldve ended up anyways.

Now of course there are some students who scored > 167 who got screwed because they may have been able to turn down better schools for what they thought was a 20ish school. Yet the majority of the class however probably dont really have too much of a complaint. Thats also cause i doubt hiring will be affected that significantly that ppl with 163 lsat would bemoan that they couldve chosen a school with better hiring numbers even compared to a scandal-ridden illinois.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby birdlaw117 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:07 pm

adammac17 wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:Clients care where the lawyers come from. Rankings play a role in that.


WHOA WHOA WHOA, im with you but i have to object to the latter portion. Clients care about ranking?!? yeah they have some knowledge that NYC is a better school than UCLA and Duke is better than UNC but i dont think clients are AT ALL concerned with rankings outside of the T-14. Its completely untrue to suggest that a client in Chicago is going to know or care that someone from GW (or more likely after this W&M or UNC) is higher ranked than someone at UIUC. Scandal or no scandal.

If you don't think that rankings play a role in the most prestige-whorish profession around, you're kidding yourself. It applies to law school applicants and it still applies hiring partners. It obviously isn't the end-all-be-all, but it's a factor.

Edited to fix quotes
Last edited by birdlaw117 on Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby sparty99 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:09 pm

As someone who has worked in recruiting, at no point did I consult the U.S. News & World Report rankings to decide where I should recruit students. The only people who care about that are the dumb students applying to law school and the prestige-wh*re admissions officers who want the "highest number."

Illinois (not just the law program) is top notch. The law school has been around since the 1800's. The Illini have the largest alumni base in Chicago. Thus, many of the clients would have gone to the University of Illinois to study business, engineering, law, etc. Are they all of a sudden going to stop recruiting at their alma mater? DOUBT IT. Plus, law school rankings HARDLY change. The schools that are at the top are the same schools that were at the top 10 years ago....a little scandal isn't going to change the hiring perceptions of Illinois students.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:10 pm

splittinghairs wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:
sparty99 wrote:OMG, get serious. This scandal will have almost no effect on hiring and I don't know why people are acting like it is a big deal. If anything, it is funny. Who cares if their ranking falls. The same employers who recruited last year, will be at Illini-Champaign this year. In two years this will all be forgotten. My undergrad had riots, did that change anything? No. It just made for good news for a few months.

Clients care where the lawyers come from. Rankings play a role in that. Employers really only care about what their clients care about. Therefore, I think it will impact hiring.

I hate to say that though because, obviously, the students are the big victims in this whole situation.


So i realize what im about to say may upset some Illinois ppl but oh well.
In one sense yes, the class of 2014 UIUC are "victims" esp compared to their situation before the scandal.

However, if you look at it beyond that. Median of 163 means that more than 50% of UIUC students scored 163 or less. Where would those ppl have ended up if they didnt chose illinois? probably a school ranked in the 30-50 range. But as it turned out they actually benefited from the law school's lies because by all rights they should never have been accepted into a top 20 school with their lsat scores anyways. So lets say UIUC drops to 30s or 40s, they are essentially at a school where they wouldve ended up anyways.

Now of course there are some students who scored > 167 who got screwed because they may have been able to turn down better schools for what they thought was a 20ish school. Yet the majority of the class however probably dont really have too much of a complaint. Thats also cause i doubt hiring will be affected that significantly that ppl with 163 lsat would bemoan that they couldve chosen a school with better hiring numbers even compared to a scandal-ridden illinois.

If Illinois lied so dramatically to cover up some sort of yield failure, then it could be a matter of <10% not getting screwed by this.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Bildungsroman » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:12 pm

sparty99 wrote:As someone who has worked in recruiting, at no point did I consult the U.S. News & World Report rankings to decide where I should recruit students. The only people who care about that are the dumb students applying to law school and the prestige-wh*re admissions officers who want the "highest number."

Illinois (not just the law program) is top notch. The law school has been around since the 1800's. The Illini have the largest alumni base in Chicago. Thus, many of the clients would have gone to the University of Illinois to study business, engineering, law, etc. Are they all of a sudden going to stop recruiting at their alma mater? DOUBT IT. Plus, law school rankings HARDLY change. The schools that are at the top are the same schools that were at the top 10 years ago....a little scandal isn't going to change the hiring perceptions of Illinois students.

Totally, bro. A scandal mixed with a sharp decline in student quality and a history of lying by the institution will in no way affect who comes to UIUC for recruiting and who hires from there.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Helmholtz » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:12 pm

adammac17 wrote:WHOA WHOA WHOA, im with you but i have to object to the latter portion. Clients care about ranking?!? yeah they have some knowledge that NYC is a better school than UCLA and Duke is better than UNC but i dont think clients are AT ALL concerned with rankings outside of the T-14. Its completely untrue to suggest that a client in Chicago is going to know or care that someone from GW (or more likely after this W&M or UNC) is higher ranked than someone at UIUC. Scandal or no scandal.


Yeah, if anything, what UIUC has to worry about is its newfound low ranking and the stench of years and years of fraud in the administration scaring off some of the better students. If that's the case, it might end up being a vicious cycle: ranking plummets, well-qualified students choose other schools, rankings drop even farther, even more of the well-qualified students choose other schools, etc., etc. I think law firms would take notice when more and more of the better students (people with options) start choosing schools whose name is not the University of Illinois. I don't think it's completely out of the question that law students may eventually see UIUC as the Cardozo of Chicagoland (in terms of reputation and student numbers) instead of the Fordham.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Helmholtz » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:13 pm

sparty99 wrote:Illinois (not just the law program) is top notch.


Illinois's law program is not "top notch," bro.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby birdlaw117 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:15 pm

sparty99 wrote:As someone who has worked in recruiting, at no point did I consult the U.S. News & World Report rankings to decide where I should recruit students. The only people who care about that are the dumb students applying to law school and the prestige-wh*re admissions officers who want the "highest number."

Illinois (not just the law program) is top notch. The law school has been around since the 1800's. The Illini have the largest alumni base in Chicago. Thus, many of the clients would have gone to the University of Illinois to study business, engineering, law, etc. Are they all of a sudden going to stop recruiting at their alma mater? DOUBT IT. Plus, law school rankings HARDLY change. The schools that are at the top are the same schools that were at the top 10 years ago....a little scandal isn't going to change the hiring perceptions of Illinois students.

Unfortunately, not all hiring for every job is done by UIUC alumni. Those people will probably hire at roughly the same rate. However, what about people without any allegiance to the school? Why would they hire at the same rate? Also, rankings impact the caliber of student schools attract (somewhat). So I think employers would look at the school with that in mind. It's obvious that employers take this into account because grade cut-offs by firms at various schools have a pretty strong correlation with ranking.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby sparty99 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:31 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:
sparty99 wrote:As someone who has worked in recruiting, at no point did I consult the U.S. News & World Report rankings to decide where I should recruit students. The only people who care about that are the dumb students applying to law school and the prestige-wh*re admissions officers who want the "highest number."

Illinois (not just the law program) is top notch. The law school has been around since the 1800's. The Illini have the largest alumni base in Chicago. Thus, many of the clients would have gone to the University of Illinois to study business, engineering, law, etc. Are they all of a sudden going to stop recruiting at their alma mater? DOUBT IT. Plus, law school rankings HARDLY change. The schools that are at the top are the same schools that were at the top 10 years ago....a little scandal isn't going to change the hiring perceptions of Illinois students.

Unfortunately, not all hiring for every job is done by UIUC alumni. Those people will probably hire at roughly the same rate. However, what about people without any allegiance to the school? Why would they hire at the same rate? Also, rankings impact the caliber of student schools attract (somewhat). So I think employers would look at the school with that in mind. It's obvious that employers take this into account because grade cut-offs by firms at various schools have a pretty strong correlation with ranking.


Illinois has a 97% bar passage rate and is the largest university in the state. Sidley Austin, Kirkland & Ellis, and The City of Chicago public defender's office will ALL be on campus this YEAR, NEXT YEAR, AND THE YEAR AFTER THAT. Illinois lied about their admissions stats. That doesn't change the fact that these companies have been hiring these students and they have been performing for these companies for the past four years. If a company stops recruiting at a school, it will be because a) they are not hiring, b) students from that school have a bad track record at that company, c) students at that school renig too many offers, d) students at that school come to interviews wearing Khaki's, e) students at that school are too stuck up. It will not be because some jacka$$ in admissions LIED about some admissions numbers.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby birdlaw117 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:36 pm

sparty99 wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:
sparty99 wrote:As someone who has worked in recruiting, at no point did I consult the U.S. News & World Report rankings to decide where I should recruit students. The only people who care about that are the dumb students applying to law school and the prestige-wh*re admissions officers who want the "highest number."

Illinois (not just the law program) is top notch. The law school has been around since the 1800's. The Illini have the largest alumni base in Chicago. Thus, many of the clients would have gone to the University of Illinois to study business, engineering, law, etc. Are they all of a sudden going to stop recruiting at their alma mater? DOUBT IT. Plus, law school rankings HARDLY change. The schools that are at the top are the same schools that were at the top 10 years ago....a little scandal isn't going to change the hiring perceptions of Illinois students.

Unfortunately, not all hiring for every job is done by UIUC alumni. Those people will probably hire at roughly the same rate. However, what about people without any allegiance to the school? Why would they hire at the same rate? Also, rankings impact the caliber of student schools attract (somewhat). So I think employers would look at the school with that in mind. It's obvious that employers take this into account because grade cut-offs by firms at various schools have a pretty strong correlation with ranking.


Illinois has a 97% bar passage rate and is the largest university in the state. Sidley Austin, Kirkland & Ellis, and The City of Chicago public defender's office will ALL be on campus this YEAR, NEXT YEAR, AND THE YEAR AFTER THAT. Illinois lied about their admissions stats. That doesn't change the fact that these companies have been hiring these students and they have been performing for these companies for the past four years. If a company stops recruiting at a school, it will be because a) they are not hiring, b) students from that school have a bad track record at that company, c) students at that school renig too many offers, d) students at that school come to interviews wearing Khaki's, e) students at that school are too stuck up. It will not be because some jacka$$ in admissions LIED about some admissions numbers.

f) the quality of student has dropped, g) their client's don't like being represented by lawyer's with an Illinois degree

Look, I don't like this situation. The current students are definitely getting screwed here. But to think this will have zero impact is being naive.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Helmholtz » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:38 pm

sparty99 is perhaps one of the most hilarious pro-UIUC trolls to ever grace this site

Hey, but it's the largest university in the state. I guess that's pretty cool. Sort of like how Cooley is the largest law school in the country.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby splittinghairs » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:39 pm

sparty99 wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:
sparty99 wrote:As someone who has worked in recruiting, at no point did I consult the U.S. News & World Report rankings to decide where I should recruit students. The only people who care about that are the dumb students applying to law school and the prestige-wh*re admissions officers who want the "highest number."

Illinois (not just the law program) is top notch. The law school has been around since the 1800's. The Illini have the largest alumni base in Chicago. Thus, many of the clients would have gone to the University of Illinois to study business, engineering, law, etc. Are they all of a sudden going to stop recruiting at their alma mater? DOUBT IT. Plus, law school rankings HARDLY change. The schools that are at the top are the same schools that were at the top 10 years ago....a little scandal isn't going to change the hiring perceptions of Illinois students.

Unfortunately, not all hiring for every job is done by UIUC alumni. Those people will probably hire at roughly the same rate. However, what about people without any allegiance to the school? Why would they hire at the same rate? Also, rankings impact the caliber of student schools attract (somewhat). So I think employers would look at the school with that in mind. It's obvious that employers take this into account because grade cut-offs by firms at various schools have a pretty strong correlation with ranking.


Illinois has a 97% bar passage rate and is the largest university in the state. Sidley Austin, Kirkland & Ellis, and The City of Chicago public defender's office will ALL be on campus this YEAR, NEXT YEAR, AND THE YEAR AFTER THAT. Illinois lied about their admissions stats. That doesn't change the fact that these companies have been hiring these students and they have been performing for these companies for the past four years. If a company stops recruiting at a school, it will be because a) they are not hiring, b) students from that school have a bad track record at that company, c) students at that school renig too many offers, d) students at that school come to interviews wearing Khaki's, e) students at that school are too stuck up. It will not be because some jacka$$ in admissions LIED about some admissions numbers.


I think you miss the point. Some "jacka$$ in admissions lying about admissions numbers can directly affect b) students from that school having a bad track record in more one way.

Rankings drop lead to less academically qualified students, you have to think that certain professors may be dissuaded to go to illinois due to this scandal at least initially. Of course this may easily blowover and not affect the long term hiring of Illinois at all in say 5-10 years.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby romothesavior » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:40 pm

sparty99 wrote:Illinois has a 97% bar passage rate and is the largest university in the state. Sidley Austin, Kirkland & Ellis, and The City of Chicago public defender's office will ALL be on campus this YEAR, NEXT YEAR, AND THE YEAR AFTER THAT. Illinois lied about their admissions stats. That doesn't change the fact that these companies have been hiring these students and they have been performing for these companies for the past four years. If a company stops recruiting at a school, it will be because a) they are not hiring, b) students from that school have a bad track record at that company, c) students at that school renig too many offers, d) students at that school come to interviews wearing Khaki's, e) students at that school are too stuck up. It will not be because some jacka$$ in admissions LIED about some admissions numbers.

OKAY, thank you for your OPINION. Is there ANYTHING ELSE that you NEED TO SHOUT AT US???

OH, and ONE MORE THING. Sidley Austin and Kirkland & Ellis are generally known as FIRMS, and the CITY of CHICAGO is a GOVERNMENT ENTITY. They are not COMPANIES.

HTH

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Helmholtz » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:41 pm

Has anybody addressed the question of whether or not sparty99 happens, in fact, to be mad?

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby splittinghairs » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:43 pm

Helmholtz wrote:Has anybody addressed the question of whether or not sparty99 happens, in fact, to be mad?


Dude is naive about what potential fallout might come out of this scandal, so no I dont think hell consider himself to be mad.
but your question was he in fact mad thats another story.
Last edited by splittinghairs on Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby 071816 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:44 pm

Helmholtz wrote:Has anybody addressed the question of whether or not sparty99 happens, in fact, to be mad an employee of Illinois Law?

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby 071816 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:44 pm

chimp wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:Has anybody addressed the question of whether or not sparty99 happens, in fact, to be mad an employee or alumnus of Illinois Law who is batshit crazy?

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby birdlaw117 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:46 pm

splittinghairs wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:Has anybody addressed the question of whether or not sparty99 happens, in fact, to be mad?


Dude is naive about what potential fallout might come out of this scandal, so no I dont think hell consider himself to be mad.
but your question was he in fact mad thats another story.

I think you're splitting hairs there...

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby bjsesq » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:46 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:
splittinghairs wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:Has anybody addressed the question of whether or not sparty99 happens, in fact, to be mad?


Dude is naive about what potential fallout might come out of this scandal, so no I dont think hell consider himself to be mad.
but your question was he in fact mad thats another story.

I think you're splitting hairs there...



121. Goddamn.




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