U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

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tennisking88
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby tennisking88 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:10 pm

illini22 wrote:I do think the hiring might be slightly affected. However 1) many schools are likely doing the same thing, they just didnt get caught. 2) the difference would be so little that I dont think people would choose a school because perhaps 1 firm that would have otherwise is not coming to OCI. Most firms come to OCI because they have lots of alumni at the firm that push their recruiters to come to the school, that is not going to change because of this.

Also, the career service office fired the lazy (but really nice guy) we had and hired (3) + one more that is coming to replace him. All the new people are pretty good. In the 6 months that the new dean of career service was here, he introduced to new recruiting schedules (new york/ L.A) plus many new programs for people to attend their own fairs.

We are yet to see the final results, but this year's OCI went substantially better than last year's, and from talking to my friends at similar schools, better than other schools that feed into Chicago. Also, OCI is not that big of a deal anyhow, half of the people with "big law" jobs dont get them through OCI anyways.



Why would anyone bet a full year's tuition hoping you're right?

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tmon
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby tmon » Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:14 pm

tennisking88 wrote:
illini22 wrote:I do think the hiring might be slightly affected. However 1) many schools are likely doing the same thing, they just didnt get caught. 2) the difference would be so little that I dont think people would choose a school because perhaps 1 firm that would have otherwise is not coming to OCI. Most firms come to OCI because they have lots of alumni at the firm that push their recruiters to come to the school, that is not going to change because of this.

Also, the career service office fired the lazy (but really nice guy) we had and hired (3) + one more that is coming to replace him. All the new people are pretty good. In the 6 months that the new dean of career service was here, he introduced to new recruiting schedules (new york/ L.A) plus many new programs for people to attend their own fairs.

We are yet to see the final results, but this year's OCI went substantially better than last year's, and from talking to my friends at similar schools, better than other schools that feed into Chicago. Also, OCI is not that big of a deal anyhow, half of the people with "big law" jobs dont get them through OCI anyways.



Why would anyone bet a full year's tuition hoping you're right?

+1
I hope you're right, illini22, but I don't know if much of anything can convince me to go after this cycle. I can't really think of any news from UIUC that could be released in the coming monhs and would seriously reassure me.

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Kilpatrick
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Kilpatrick » Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:38 pm

illini22 wrote:I do think the hiring might be slightly affected. However 1) many schools are likely doing the same thing, they just didnt get caught. 2) the difference would be so little that I dont think people would choose a school because perhaps 1 firm that would have otherwise is not coming to OCI. Most firms come to OCI because they have lots of alumni at the firm that push their recruiters to come to the school, that is not going to change because of this.

Also, the career service office fired the lazy (but really nice guy) we had and hired (3) + one more that is coming to replace him. All the new people are pretty good. In the 6 months that the new dean of career service was here, he introduced to new recruiting schedules (new york/ L.A) plus many new programs for people to attend their own fairs.

We are yet to see the final results, but this year's OCI went substantially better than last year's, and from talking to my friends at similar schools, better than other schools that feed into Chicago. Also, OCI is not that big of a deal anyhow, half of the people with "big law" jobs dont get them through OCI anyways.


I wasn't that shocked by the admissions scandal but I'm shocked that someone has anything good to say about career services.

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Helmholtz
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Helmholtz » Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:52 pm

Nightrunner wrote:We have to keep in mind that we're having two different hiring discussions right now. One is hiring in and of itself (or, "how bad will this be for Illinois students?"), and one is hiring relative to peer schools applicants are likely considering (or, "when a 5% drop in Chicago placement can move you from first to fourth"). I suspect the impact of the latter will be much worse than the former.


Latest NLJ250 stats have: Notre Dame >>>>> WUSTL > UIUC >>>>>> Iowa = Minnesota = Ohio State

Will this latest scandal make Midwest-to-the-death-but-dreams-of-biglaw people pass over UIUC for Iowa, Minnesota, or Ohio State? I doubt it. But IMO, this is making ND and WUSTL looking like much easier alternatives than they might have been in the past.

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romothesavior
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby romothesavior » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:12 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
Nightrunner wrote:We have to keep in mind that we're having two different hiring discussions right now. One is hiring in and of itself (or, "how bad will this be for Illinois students?"), and one is hiring relative to peer schools applicants are likely considering (or, "when a 5% drop in Chicago placement can move you from first to fourth"). I suspect the impact of the latter will be much worse than the former.


Latest NLJ250 stats have: Notre Dame >>>>> WUSTL > UIUC >>>>>> Iowa = Minnesota = Ohio State

Will this latest scandal make Midwest-to-the-death-but-dreams-of-biglaw people pass over UIUC for Iowa, Minnesota, or Ohio State? I doubt it. But IMO, this is making ND and WUSTL looking like much easier alternatives than they might have been in the past.

Latest NLJ stats, not latest Chicago placement. WUSTL may edge out UIUC barely for biglaw, but given the way my class (and the previous class) fared in Chicago, I highly doubt we're beating them in that market. Almost every person I know with an NLJ250 offer is non-Chicago.

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romothesavior
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby romothesavior » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:23 pm

illini22 wrote:I do think the hiring might be slightly affected. However 1) many schools are likely doing the same thing, they just didnt get caught.

Why do people keep saying this? I know you U of I students have an incentive to do so, but where is this evidence of widespread median fudging coming from? No doubt that schools play games to raise their medians, and no doubt that career services data is sketchy as hell. But I really doubt that most law schools, or even many, are blatantly lying about their LSAT/GPA medians.

Its not because I'm naive and think that law schools are beacons of integrity; its because it would be so damn easy to get caught. It isn't at all like employment data. Employment data is usually "honest," meaning it is achieved through some fancy gymnastics (like by counting baristas at Starbucks in your "Employed at 9 Months" data or only using a tiny sliver of the class when showing your salary statistics), and generally is is within the guidelines of USNWR and the ABA*. Figuring out the medians of your incoming class is so simple and so straightforward that any whistleblower with a high school diploma could call you out on it real quickly. Could it be going on at lots of schools? Maybe. But it seems like an awfully baseless assumption to make.

(*Note: I'm not defending employment data reporting, and I think it is highly unethical and dishonest, but it is different than straight up lying about your LSAT median/mean, and I don't think we can say that just because schools are shady about CSO data means they all must be blatantly fudging admissions medians.)

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YourCaptain
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby YourCaptain » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:48 pm

romothesavior wrote:
illini22 wrote:I do think the hiring might be slightly affected. However 1) many schools are likely doing the same thing, they just didnt get caught.

Why do people keep saying this? I know you U of I students have an incentive to do so, but where is this evidence of widespread median fudging coming from? No doubt that schools play games to raise their medians, and no doubt that career services data is sketchy as hell. But I really doubt that most law schools, or even many, are blatantly lying about their LSAT/GPA medians.

Its not because I'm naive and think that law schools are beacons of integrity; its because it would be so damn easy to get caught. It isn't at all like employment data. Employment data is usually "honest," meaning it is achieved through some fancy gymnastics (like by counting baristas at Starbucks in your "Employed at 9 Months" data or only using a tiny sliver of the class when showing your salary statistics), and generally is is within the guidelines of USNWR and the ABA*. Figuring out the medians of your incoming class is so simple and so straightforward that any whistleblower with a high school diploma could call you out on it real quickly. Could it be going on at lots of schools? Maybe. But it seems like an awfully baseless assumption to make.

(*Note: I'm not defending employment data reporting, and I think it is highly unethical and dishonest, but it is different than straight up lying about your LSAT median/mean, and I don't think we can say that just because schools are shady about CSO data means they all must be blatantly fudging admissions medians.)


+1

Look, I hate to say "I told you so," but for those of you who think this is a 'mistake,' stop kidding yourselves.

This will severely impact UIUC's credibility.

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Jah'rakal
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Jah'rakal » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:21 pm

does this mean UIUC's ranking will drop next year?

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Kabuo
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Kabuo » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:22 pm

Jah'rakal wrote:does this mean UIUC's ranking will drop next year?


Yes, significantly.

jml8756
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby jml8756 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:30 pm

Jah'rakal wrote:does this mean UIUC's ranking will drop next year?


168 --> 163 is a big difference.

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Helmholtz
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Helmholtz » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:35 pm

Kabuo wrote:
Jah'rakal wrote:does this mean UIUC's ranking will drop next year?


Yes, significantly.


I'm guessing they'll be somewhere in the 35-40 range.

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:39 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
Kabuo wrote:
Jah'rakal wrote:does this mean UIUC's ranking will drop next year?


Yes, significantly.


I'm guessing they'll be somewhere in the 35-40 range.

Even aside from the GPA/LSAT weight, I wonder if this could adversely affect their peer/judge ratings? I'm sure this has or is going to get around acadamia, and I think even a minor drop in that department could kill them.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:41 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
Kabuo wrote:
Jah'rakal wrote:does this mean UIUC's ranking will drop next year?


Yes, significantly.


I'm guessing they'll be somewhere in the 35-40 range.


And possibly worse depending on how much their medians impacted their rank. As mentioned earlier, minor fluctuations in variables have huge repercussions in the T18-T50 range.

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Helmholtz
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Helmholtz » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:43 pm

Mickey Quicknumbers wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
Kabuo wrote:
Jah'rakal wrote:does this mean UIUC's ranking will drop next year?


Yes, significantly.


I'm guessing they'll be somewhere in the 35-40 range.

Even aside from the GPA/LSAT weight, I wonder if this could adversely affect their peer/judge ratings? I'm sure this has or is going to get around acadamia, and I think even a minor drop in that department could kill them.


I'm not sure when those surveys are done, but yeah, there is a lot of weight put on those scores. There is a pretty small difference in reputation scores that separate the schools in the T40-50 range from the schools in the T20-25 range. A drop of 0.1 (essentially, the smallest possible drop) could hurt a lot coupled with the massive numbers drop.

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tttlllsss
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby tttlllsss » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:51 pm

Jah'rakal wrote:does this mean UIUC's ranking will drop next year?


UIUC's ranking will absolutely drop next year. They'll be shut out of T25 and probably T30. I would be very, very, very surprised if UIUC is a T30 come April. The question is whether they will fall to 30-40 range w/ all the publics like Wisc, UW, OSU, ASU, etc, or to 40-50 range (or lower?). My best guess is that UIUC will fall squarely in the 30-40 range, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're in the low 40s. I don't think they will drop to T2, but who knows.

On a side note, I also attended UIUC for undergrad and this sort of thing is basically par for the course there and not really too shocking. When a new scandal is uncovered there, students' attitude is, "What else is new?" Prime example of a public school going down w/ the state.

I sympathize for current students there, but I'm really glad I did not end up there. Frankly, I think any prospective T30 student should stay far away from UIUC for at least this cycle. Yes, even those who attended UIUC for undergrad and wish to work in-state.
Last edited by tttlllsss on Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:04 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Sapientia
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Sapientia » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:55 pm

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Last edited by Sapientia on Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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TCScrutinizer
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby TCScrutinizer » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:11 pm

Sapientia wrote:Well, fuck me. I guess I'll just have to make top 1% so I can transfer to Harvard next year.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Drop out and reapply.

(srs)

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Thirteen
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Thirteen » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:14 pm

TCScrutinizer wrote:
Sapientia wrote:Well, fuck me. I guess I'll just have to make top 1% so I can transfer to Harvard next year.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Drop out and reapply.

(srs)


I forgot to creep y'all via PM when I was in town this weekend. We hit Firehaus both nights.

splittinghairs
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby splittinghairs » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:15 pm

romothesavior wrote:
illini22 wrote:I do think the hiring might be slightly affected. However 1) many schools are likely doing the same thing, they just didnt get caught.

Why do people keep saying this? I know you U of I students have an incentive to do so, but where is this evidence of widespread median fudging coming from? No doubt that schools play games to raise their medians, and no doubt that career services data is sketchy as hell. But I really doubt that most law schools, or even many, are blatantly lying about their LSAT/GPA medians.

Its not because I'm naive and think that law schools are beacons of integrity; its because it would be so damn easy to get caught. It isn't at all like employment data. Employment data is usually "honest," meaning it is achieved through some fancy gymnastics (like by counting baristas at Starbucks in your "Employed at 9 Months" data or only using a tiny sliver of the class when showing your salary statistics), and generally is is within the guidelines of USNWR and the ABA*. Figuring out the medians of your incoming class is so simple and so straightforward that any whistleblower with a high school diploma could call you out on it real quickly. Could it be going on at lots of schools? Maybe. But it seems like an awfully baseless assumption to make.

(*Note: I'm not defending employment data reporting, and I think it is highly unethical and dishonest, but it is different than straight up lying about your LSAT median/mean, and I don't think we can say that just because schools are shady about CSO data means they all must be blatantly fudging admissions medians.)


If its so damn easy to get caught how come it took 4 years for UIUC to get caught? not to mention that it took one really egregious year(5 point diff in LSAT) of fudging for them to even get caught at all. If I were in admissions I may look at illinois and say oh as long as we lie by like 1 lsat point or .02 GPA we wont get caught, because its so small no one will notice. In addition, I may look at Villanova and say oh I guess ABA wont really do anything to us even if we do get caught as long as we "self report" the mistake. But in the meantime before we self report, lets reap the benefits and inflate our medians year after year after year then entice unweary applicants who think our median is higher it is actually is.

Also it would be extremely easy and makes alot of sense for a school to stealthily misrepresent the median by 1 point every say 2 or 3 years, and by lying you can more easily attract more applicants at the artificial lsat median next year and actually keep that median for that cycle, which means in the subsequent years they wouldnt even be lying at all anymore but they still benefited from a prior lie.

I feel like this has been said many times before, but the real problem probably lies with the lack of teeth and the ineptitude of the ABA. When the opportunity and incentives are for schools to lie and when theres essentially not going to be any meaningful punishment, then why wouldnt schools report the wrong medians?

Obviously absent any actual proof i dont know exactly how many schools do this, but it certainly seems very likely that other schools are "misreporting."
Last edited by splittinghairs on Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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TCScrutinizer
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby TCScrutinizer » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:26 pm

splittinghairs wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
illini22 wrote:I do think the hiring might be slightly affected. However 1) many schools are likely doing the same thing, they just didnt get caught.

Why do people keep saying this? I know you U of I students have an incentive to do so, but where is this evidence of widespread median fudging coming from? No doubt that schools play games to raise their medians, and no doubt that career services data is sketchy as hell. But I really doubt that most law schools, or even many, are blatantly lying about their LSAT/GPA medians.

Its not because I'm naive and think that law schools are beacons of integrity; its because it would be so damn easy to get caught. It isn't at all like employment data. Employment data is usually "honest," meaning it is achieved through some fancy gymnastics (like by counting baristas at Starbucks in your "Employed at 9 Months" data or only using a tiny sliver of the class when showing your salary statistics), and generally is is within the guidelines of USNWR and the ABA*. Figuring out the medians of your incoming class is so simple and so straightforward that any whistleblower with a high school diploma could call you out on it real quickly. Could it be going on at lots of schools? Maybe. But it seems like an awfully baseless assumption to make.

(*Note: I'm not defending employment data reporting, and I think it is highly unethical and dishonest, but it is different than straight up lying about your LSAT median/mean, and I don't think we can say that just because schools are shady about CSO data means they all must be blatantly fudging admissions medians.)


If its so damn easy to get caught how come it took 4 years for UIUC to get caught? not to mention that it took one really egregious year(5 point diff in LSAT) of fudging for them to even get caught at all. If I were in admissions I may look at illinois and say oh as long as we lie by like 1 lsat point or .02 GPA we wont get caught, because its so small no one will notice. In addition, I may look at Villanova and say oh I guess ABA wont really do anything to us even if we do get caught as long as we "self report" the mistake. But in the meantime before we self report, lets reap the benefits and inflate our medians year after year after year then entice unweary applicants who think our median is higher it is actually is.

I feel like this has been said many times before, but the real problem probably lies with the lack of teeth and the ineptitude of the ABA. When the opportunity and incentives are for schools to lie and when theres essentially not going to be any meaningful punishment, then why wouldnt schools report the wrong medians?

Obviously absent any actual prove i dont know how many schools do this, but it certainly seems very likely that other schools are "misreporting."


There is a 100% chance that UIUC is not alone in misreporting admissions data. No one with two brain cells to rub together thinks otherwise. I wouldn't be surprised if half of the schools between 50 and 10 are fudging numbers.

That doesn't excuse the administration of UIUC or any other law school that is fudging of all wrongdoing, of course. But it does make you wonder if the system is creating the wrong incentives. (As Dean Smith might be willing to point out in one of his lectures.)

Obviously, Pless has to go, but I would love to see Smith stay. Maybe if he's not dean anymore, he could teach more classes.

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Sapientia
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Sapientia » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:29 pm

.
Last edited by Sapientia on Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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romothesavior
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby romothesavior » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:31 pm

TCScrutinizer wrote:There is a 100% chance that UIUC is not alone in misreporting admissions data. No one with two brain cells to rub together thinks otherwise.

Yes, with you so far.

TCScrutinizer wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if half of the schools between 50 and 10 are fudging numbers.

Uh... pulled out of your ass?

I agree that it is likely that other schools are doing it. But to suggest that every school, most schools, or even "many" schools are doing it is just conjecture, and in your case, based on nothing more than your own desire to see other schools shamed like yours was. I don't doubt that other schools are fudging, but I highly doubt it is as pervasive as you seem to think it is. It is really unfair for people to be broadly condemning everyone, especially any UIUC peers.

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romothesavior
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby romothesavior » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:33 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
Kabuo wrote:
Jah'rakal wrote:does this mean UIUC's ranking will drop next year?


Yes, significantly.


I'm guessing they'll be somewhere in the 35-40 range.

I think somewhere in the 40s. A 4 point LSAT drop, a .1 GPA drop, and likely a few tenths off of their reputational score will be a huge blow to their USNWR ranking.

splittinghairs
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby splittinghairs » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:36 pm

Frankly its quite easy for the ABA to fix this problem of misreporting the LSAT, all they have to do is ask LSAC to release the data for each law school.

The fact that the ABA wont do something so easy despite having two schools get caught already suggests that they are scared of just how widespread the problem is throughout the country. Imagine how hard the legal academic system's reputation would be affected if it turns out that say 10 schools did this. Frankly the ABA is deliberately ignoring the truth because of how much is at stake, this reminds me of willful blindness and the ostrich instruction.

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YourCaptain
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby YourCaptain » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:36 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
Kabuo wrote:
Jah'rakal wrote:does this mean UIUC's ranking will drop next year?


Yes, significantly.


I'm guessing they'll be somewhere in the 35-40 range.

I think somewhere in the 40s. A 4 point LSAT drop, a .1 GPA drop, and likely a few tenths off of their reputational score will be a huge blow to their USNWR ranking.


It's not even the usnwr rankings; 4 years of misrepresentation has an awful effect on your reputation. Chicago is a very tight-knit and tough market - despite the fact that UIUC had it as its home market there's definitely a possibility of this have an effect on Chicago hiring for uiuc c/o 2014




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