U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

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Thirteen
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Thirteen » Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:07 pm

Kilpatrick wrote:
Thirteen wrote:
adammac17 wrote:FYI, around the halls here at UIUC, the early betting line is an announcement of Dean Pless' resignation by the end of the week and Dean Smith heading out the door soon after. This release on the same day the ABA came to start an investigation is not a coincidence - the administration was sitting on these numbers, debating whether or not to release them, and the ABA coming called their hand.


Image


Do you not like Smith? I've never heard anyone say anything bad about him so I'm just curious. He was my favorite professor ever.


Let's just say that Smith and Dean Meyer won't be on my Christmas card list in the foreseeable future.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby adammac17 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:09 pm

deleted repeated post
Last edited by adammac17 on Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby adammac17 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:09 pm

Kilpatrick wrote:
Thirteen wrote:
adammac17 wrote:FYI, around the halls here at UIUC, the early betting line is an announcement of Dean Pless' resignation by the end of the week and Dean Smith heading out the door soon after. This release on the same day the ABA came to start an investigation is not a coincidence - the administration was sitting on these numbers, debating whether or not to release them, and the ABA coming called their hand.


Do you not like Smith? I've never heard anyone say anything bad about him so I'm just curious. He was my favorite professor ever.


1L here who has never had smith before. I've only had a handful of conversations with him (and he did our mock class at the open house) but i thought he was a cool guy. I'm not making a personal judgment about him, I just don't see how he isn't (or shouldn't) ultimately going to lose his job over this. He was the dean brought in to clean up after Hurd. Do you honestly think he didn't know or sign off on this kilpatrick? This thread was "depend Pless" a few pages back, I don't think we need to start up the same thing for Smith.

But....1L like i said........

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Holly Golightly
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Holly Golightly » Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:10 pm

This is insane. Gotta love my state.

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anthropologieaddict
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby anthropologieaddict » Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:12 pm

I'm actually glad that at least I'm not a 3L...at least I have a very minor and unforeseeable chance at this point of abandoning ship through transfer. I was the first one to defend the school and Pless until we had this information, but after this not so much. Best to keep my head down in hopes of seizing that minor and unforeseeable chance. I really do feel badly for everyone affected by this. Makes you wonder why they thought they could get away with this.

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masochist
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby masochist » Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:14 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:The State of Illinois, taxpayers & consumers were "made fools of". Consumer fraud, racketeering & conspiracy.


Yeah, I'd bet the AG is going to keep pretty quiet about this. The four-year time frame means that the classes involved in the last issue are also involved in this one.

Remember that Lisa Madigan's father was the worst offender in the last U of I controversy. Unlike Blago, who only traded UIUC admissions for political favors, Mike Madigan may have sold them through his law firm. He refused to testify in front of the special commision last time, and his daughter (shockingly) did nothing.

There is nobody less excited by the prospect of someone taking a close look at UIUC admission than Mike Madigan, and lucky for him, his daughter is the AG.

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masochist
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby masochist » Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:15 pm

bjsesq wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:Nevertheless, we don't know who, if anyone, applied pressure to inflate results. Can't just blame one individual when superiors left 4 consecutive years of misreporting unreported.


I'm not. I'm certainly not defending him anymore, though.



Unfortunately +1

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crumpetsandtea
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby crumpetsandtea » Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:16 pm

My god. 4 years... o_o

Sorry to all the UIUC kids who have to deal with this. <3 ):

09042014
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby 09042014 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:19 pm

As an Illinois resident and UIUC alum I am more concerned their cheating was discovered.

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Cornelius
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Cornelius » Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:24 pm

romothesavior wrote:
MrAnon wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:The State of Illinois, taxpayers & consumers were "made fools of". Consumer fraud, racketeering & conspiracy.


I get your point, but really this is overblowing it. The students will still come to the school no matter what numbers are published. Students opinions of the school have changed overnight as result of this? Or because of a perceived drop in ranking in a magazine? I always thought this sort of chicanery was going on. Its been talked about for years that the employment numbers are made up at law schools. Why would they be honest about these numbers?

If you really don't think this information won't have any impact on the quality of students who matriculate, you're nuts. There are tons of people on TLS who have already openly wondered whether or not UIUC is a good choice at this time. I can tell you that I certainly don't regret turning them down, and I'm glad I'm not there now.

+1. I can tell you that, up until this all came out, Illinois was near the top of my list if I either 1. didn't get into any T14 or 2. decided to go with the money. Now, I probably won't even apply.

Really sucks for the students already there. You almost want to see the ABA make an example out of the school to discourage this kind of behavior, but at the same time you don't, because the students will be the ones getting royally screwed.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby rayiner » Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:30 pm

Toughquestions wrote:Update from the administration:

I have previously reported to you that profile data (median LSAT and median GPA) for the class of 2014 disseminated by the College of Law were inaccurate, and that the College has since posted accurate, verified data on its website. Ten years of profiles have been rigorously reviewed, and the inquiry has now determined that student profile data for the classes of 2011, 2012, and 2013 were also inaccurate. The accurate, verified data for these classes (and the previously reported data, indicated in parentheses) are as follows: Class of 2011: LSAT 165 (166) and GPA 3.6 (3.6); Class of 2012: LSAT 165 (166) and GPA 3.7 (3.8); and Class of 2013: LSAT 167 (167) and GPA 3.6 (3.8).


So it looks like they really did just fuck things up this year.


Those are huge misrepresentations. Remember that in the UIUC range of schools, the USNWR rankings are actually more sensitive to median GPA than they are to median LSAT, even though the latter is weighted more, because all the schools are so close to each other in median LSAT. So a 3.6/3.7 versus a reported 3.8 is a huge difference.

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Holly Golightly
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Holly Golightly » Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:31 pm

Desert Fox wrote:As an Illinois resident and UIUC alum I am more concerned their cheating was discovered.

It really is an embarrassment to our state.

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Kilpatrick
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Kilpatrick » Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:46 pm

adammac17 wrote:
Kilpatrick wrote:
Thirteen wrote:
adammac17 wrote:FYI, around the halls here at UIUC, the early betting line is an announcement of Dean Pless' resignation by the end of the week and Dean Smith heading out the door soon after. This release on the same day the ABA came to start an investigation is not a coincidence - the administration was sitting on these numbers, debating whether or not to release them, and the ABA coming called their hand.


Do you not like Smith? I've never heard anyone say anything bad about him so I'm just curious. He was my favorite professor ever.


1L here who has never had smith before. I've only had a handful of conversations with him (and he did our mock class at the open house) but i thought he was a cool guy. I'm not making a personal judgment about him, I just don't see how he isn't (or shouldn't) ultimately going to lose his job over this. He was the dean brought in to clean up after Hurd. Do you honestly think he didn't know or sign off on this kilpatrick? This thread was "depend Pless" a few pages back, I don't think we need to start up the same thing for Smith.

But....1L like i said........


Oh I'm not defending Smith saying he didn't know. I just think he is an amazing professor and was always an awesome guy in my personal conversations with him. He probably knew. I don't care, I still like him.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby NancyBotwin » Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:56 pm

Kilpatrick wrote:Oh I'm not defending Smith saying he didn't know. I just think he is an amazing professor and was always an awesome guy in my personal conversations with him. He probably knew. I don't care, I still like him.


This. He's the fucking man.

Though maybe I should stop using him as a reference.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby romothesavior » Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:02 pm

There are a lot of folks I respect and admire a great deal at WUSTL, but if any of them had a hand in embroiling all of us in a major scandal that involved outright lying about our job prospects, I don't think I would still refer to him (or her?) as "the man."

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tmon
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby tmon » Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:06 pm

Wow. This is seriously disappointing. Still going to apply, but only as a last case scenario. Don't see any reason to pick them over some regional similar schools at this point, even if I want Chicago.

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crumpetsandtea
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby crumpetsandtea » Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:07 pm

tmon wrote:Wow. This is seriously disappointing. Still going to apply, but only as a last case scenario. Don't see any reason to pick them over some regional similar schools at this point, even if I want Chicago.

+1. ):

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby HeavenWood » Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:12 pm

crumpetsandtea wrote:
tmon wrote:Wow. This is seriously disappointing. Still going to apply, but only as a last case scenario. Don't see any reason to pick them over some regional similar schools at this point, even if I want Chicago.

+1. ):

I do wonder how much of an issue this will be come OCI-time. Villanova's scandal hasn't really made a difference, but Philly is also unusually insular. How national is the Chicago market?

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby tmon » Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:16 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
crumpetsandtea wrote:
tmon wrote:Wow. This is seriously disappointing. Still going to apply, but only as a last case scenario. Don't see any reason to pick them over some regional similar schools at this point, even if I want Chicago.

+1. ):

I do wonder how much of an issue this will be come OCI-time. Villanova's scandal hasn't really made a difference, but Philly is also unusually insular. How national is the Chicago market?

It's seemed like UIUC's direct competitors have been schools like ND and IU and the differences in employment options have never seemed THAT different. Maybe Iowa to a lesser extent too? Seems like at this point my aversion to this even possibly being an issue at OCI in the future would take me to one of those other schools. Maybe in 2-3 years we'll be sure whether it's had an impact, but for this cycle...just seems way too precarious.
Last edited by tmon on Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Thirteen
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Thirteen » Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:16 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
crumpetsandtea wrote:
tmon wrote:Wow. This is seriously disappointing. Still going to apply, but only as a last case scenario. Don't see any reason to pick them over some regional similar schools at this point, even if I want Chicago.

+1. ):

I do wonder how much of an issue this will be come OCI-time. Villanova's scandal hasn't really made a difference, but Philly is also unusually insular. How national is the Chicago market?


Michigan, Chicago, Northwestern, Illinois, Notre Dame, Indiana, Iowa, and WUSTL feed into Chicago, not to mention all of the non-T50 schools that are located in the city.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby HeavenWood » Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:17 pm

Thirteen wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
crumpetsandtea wrote:
tmon wrote:Wow. This is seriously disappointing. Still going to apply, but only as a last case scenario. Don't see any reason to pick them over some regional similar schools at this point, even if I want Chicago.

+1. ):

I do wonder how much of an issue this will be come OCI-time. Villanova's scandal hasn't really made a difference, but Philly is also unusually insular. How national is the Chicago market?


Michigan, Chicago, Northwestern, Illinois, Notre Dame, Indiana, Iowa, and WUSTL feed into Chicago, not to mention all of the non-T50 schools that are located in the city.

Ok, so the Chicago legal market is "super-regional." In that case, I understand the trepidation of attending UIUC.

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blurbz
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby blurbz » Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:21 pm

Thirteen wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
crumpetsandtea wrote:
tmon wrote:Wow. This is seriously disappointing. Still going to apply, but only as a last case scenario. Don't see any reason to pick them over some regional similar schools at this point, even if I want Chicago.

+1. ):

I do wonder how much of an issue this will be come OCI-time. Villanova's scandal hasn't really made a difference, but Philly is also unusually insular. How national is the Chicago market?


Michigan, Chicago, Northwestern, Illinois, Notre Dame, Indiana, Iowa, and WUSTL feed into Chicago, not to mention all of the non-T50 schools that are located in the city.


I'm not happy about this development, obviously, but I just don't see it effecting job prospects much at all here.

I talked about it on a few interviews and, while people were concerned if they were alums, it didn't seem like it made a bit of difference in their hiring decisions. These firms hire from Illinois because there are a lot of Illinois alums who work for them, many of whom graduated when our LSAT median was ~160. Sure, this doesn't look good, but I don't think that the hiring chairs at most firms in Chicago are going to say "Well shit, we can't hire any more of those Illinois students, we might as well start recruiting at IU-Bloomington!" It's just not going to happen.

If you want Chicago and your options are Illinois or another similarly situated school, you really ought to look at who came to OCI this year at both places. Hint: Generally, more Chicago firms show up at Illinois than at the other non-T14s. It can, and should, be a factor, but I don't think anyone should make their school decisions based ONLY on this scandal.

Regarding Smith---I liked him as a proff, too. It'd be a shame to see him go but I'm not convinced that he will. Him leaving might be worse than the admissions scandal: He might not be the best Dean (I don't know) but he definitely was strong for the law school. While most law schools give a huge percentage of their income to the larger institution, Smith has ensured that Illinois keeps the majority of its money in-house to fund and improve the law school. If that changes, we've got problems.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Bildungsroman » Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:26 pm

Don't law schools submit their class profiles to employers to try and get them to recruit at their school? If so, I think it would be extremely naive to say that the relationship with at least some employers won't be negatively affected after several straight years of lying. Not just because of the numerical difference, but mostly because employers hate being lied to.

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beachbum
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby beachbum » Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:54 pm

romothesavior wrote:There are a lot of folks I respect and admire a great deal at WUSTL, but if any of them had a hand in embroiling all of us in a major scandal that involved outright lying about our job prospects, I don't think I would still refer to him (or her?) as "the man."


+1. I don't care how great of a person or professor you are; if you so carelessly risk the reputation of my school, then fuck you.

illini22
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby illini22 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:56 pm

I do think the hiring might be slightly affected. However 1) many schools are likely doing the same thing, they just didnt get caught. 2) the difference would be so little that I dont think people would choose a school because perhaps 1 firm that would have otherwise is not coming to OCI. Most firms come to OCI because they have lots of alumni at the firm that push their recruiters to come to the school, that is not going to change because of this.

Also, the career service office fired the lazy (but really nice guy) we had and hired (3) + one more that is coming to replace him. All the new people are pretty good. In the 6 months that the new dean of career service was here, he introduced to new recruiting schedules (new york/ L.A) plus many new programs for people to attend their own fairs.

We are yet to see the final results, but this year's OCI went substantially better than last year's, and from talking to my friends at similar schools, better than other schools that feed into Chicago. Also, OCI is not that big of a deal anyhow, half of the people with "big law" jobs dont get them through OCI anyways.




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