U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

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NancyBotwin
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby NancyBotwin » Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:45 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:But if it was simply a data entry mistake, why investigate prior years & why not lift the suspension ?

Because they don't actually know if it was a mistake. They need to make sure that it was isolated to this year. I mean, would you believe the person you were investigating if you asked "Did you do this on purpose?" and they said "No, it was an accident"? My guess is you would not.

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NancyBotwin
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby NancyBotwin » Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:46 pm

Wart wrote:
NancyBotwin wrote:That is not what he said. He did not say the data was changed. He said it was entered into the data management system after the class was solidified. That does not necessarily indicate intent. It could simply have been a data entry mistake.

You're right. My mistake. I was trying to do it from memory and obviously that is a glaring miswording.

It is, actually.

CanadianWolf
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:02 pm

Nor would I suspend someone for a simple data entry mistake. Plus, it doesn't take more than a few minutes to ascertain whether or not an error was a simple data entry mistake.

P.S. Entering data after a class was solidified seems to nullify DF's proffered explanation.

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masochist
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby masochist » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:22 pm

CanadianWolf wrote: Plus, it doesn't take more than a few minutes to ascertain whether or not an error was a simple data entry mistake.

P.S. Entering data after a class was solidified seems to nullify DF's proffered explanation.


Actually, it might not be that easy. We don't really know what "entering into the data management system" means. If it means typing everything into an excel spreadsheet, then this is hard to explain. If it means exporting data from one format into another based upon automatically calculated filters, then it is much easier to see how this could get messed up in a way that would not be immediately apparent. For example, a program misreading or miscalculating a filter variable could cause someone to accidently run the median calculation on the accepted group rather than the matriculated group (which would result in a significantly higher median).

Probably someone should have been able to tell that something was amiss based upon the number in the calculated median even if a filter variable went awry. However, people who are a lot better at math than lawyers have made more egregious mistakes than forgetting to look at the N for a median calculation. It could happen.


Admittedly, this looks bad, but I am still holding out hope for a mistake.

CanadianWolf
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:26 pm

Seems a bit far fetched based on the actions taken so far. Especially since it's been over ten days at this point, but anything is possible.

P.S. Maybe the ABA should offer all law schools an amnesty period (similiar to the IRS) to correct misreporting over the last few years.

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birdlaw117
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby birdlaw117 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:30 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Seems a bit far fetched based on the actions taken so far. Especially since it's been over ten days at this point.


In reality, everything other than fraud seems pretty far fetched at this point. A 5 point difference in the median calculation is enormous.

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NancyBotwin
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby NancyBotwin » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:32 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Seems a bit far fetched based on the actions taken so far. Especially since it's been over ten days at this point, but anything is possible.

P.S. Maybe the ABA should offer all law schools an amnesty period (similiar to the IRS) to correct misreporting over the last few years.

The incorrect data was not actually reported to the ABA. Smith said reporting to the ABA usually occurs in late October, so the correct information will be what is reported to them.

CanadianWolf
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:34 pm

Thanks. I understand, and understood, that to be the class. My amnesty suggestion was just an attempt to get an idea of how widespread this may be among all ABA accredited law schools.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Helmholtz
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Helmholtz » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:34 pm

I'm willing to give somebody the benefit of the doubt, but if it was mistake, (1) it was one hell of a convenient mistake (both number metrics just happen to be extremely overinflated?), and (2) holy shit, what a gigantic mistake (5 LSAT points?!? It wasn't like somebody accidentally entered 3.65 into the system instead of 3.56, and even if they did, I'm sure these things are double-checked, then double-checked again, and then somebody else double-checks the double-checks).

CanadianWolf
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:36 pm

Which re-raises my point made a few days back that a "3" looks similiar to a two-thirds completed "8" (163 versus 168).

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Helmholtz
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Helmholtz » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:39 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Which re-raises my point made a few days back that a "3" looks similiar to a two-thirds completed "8".


Yeah, well, (1) I'm hoping that an admissions office is more competent than to let some of its most important data be published without making sure something like that happens, and (2) even if a group of people were that hideously sloppy with their work, that still doesn't explain the GPA.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:39 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Which re-raises my point made a few days back that a "3" looks similiar to a two-thirds completed "8" (163 versus 168).


Which would still be a four point median drop, which would still be unprecedented.

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:40 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Which re-raises my point made a few days back that a "3" looks similiar to a two-thirds completed "8" (163 versus 168).

There is no goddamn way that is what happened.

CanadianWolf
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:41 pm

I was just trying to be creative similiar to grade school kids that change an "F" on a report card to a "B".

P.S. Apparently my attempt at levity is not successful.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Bildungsroman » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:48 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:P.S. Maybe the ABA should offer all law schools an amnesty period (similiar to the IRS) to correct misreporting over the last few years.

no. The ABA should grow some goddamn nuts.

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masochist
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby masochist » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:50 pm

I also don’t think a 4-point drop is impossible to explain with just bad luck. It depends upon how close to the edge you were willing to go in a typical year to take advantage of the fact that medians are stupid measures of central tendency.

Hypothetical example with 101 spots (for mathematical ease)

Let's say you wanted a median of 167 and maximized GPA. This means you have to admit 51 people with 167 or above. In order to do this, you recruit four types of students in the following anticipated numbers.

167+, high/ok GPA = 30
167+, low GPA = 25
165-167, high/ok GPA = 5 (safety buffer)
15x-163, maximized GPA = 41

If this works, you end up safe and secure with your 167 median and a GPA in the high to ok range.

However, this depends a lot on getting your 167+, high/ok GPA students, and yield on them is going to be really, really low. They will probably have several other offers, and one from a higher-ranked school. So lets say typical yield for them is 20%. So you need to admit 150 of them to get your 30 to attend in most years.

Now lets say there is a crappy year. Apps are down significantly everywhere by 10%. This makes your most desirable group more desirable to everyone else too. So your anticipated yield drops to 10%. Suddenly you have to admit 300 in your highest group to make numbers, but you don't get 300. You wouldn't because apps are down. Instead you get 135. Of those, only 20 matriculate. Now you have 50 at 165+, and 51 at 163 or lower. This happens even if you beat your anticipated yield by 5% by giving out hugh scholarships.


Tl;dr version - the effect of fewer applications is subject to a multiplier effect upon the most desirable applicants. If you don't have a big enough buffer, you get screwed.
Last edited by masochist on Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

CanadianWolf
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:50 pm

Some might argue that they already have too many nuts.

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birdlaw117
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby birdlaw117 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:50 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:P.S. Maybe the ABA should offer all law schools an amnesty period (similiar to the IRS) to correct misreporting over the last few years.

no. The ABA should grow some goddamn nuts and enforce these sorts of things while shutting down TTTTs.

CanadianWolf
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:54 pm

Other suggestions:

1) All Illinois law students get a full tuition scholarship or

2) Automatic transfer admission to the law school of their choice.

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Helmholtz
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Helmholtz » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:55 pm

It seems like every time the ABA tries to take a stand on something, they get sued or something ridiculous happens like the DOJ steps in on antitrust grounds or something.

CanadianWolf
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:56 pm

That's why we have US News.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Bildungsroman » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:56 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Other suggestions:

1) All Illinois law students get a full tuition scholarship or

2) Automatic transfer admission to the law school of their choice.

:?: :?:

Unless the misreporting extends past beyond this year I don't see how this is unjustly dicking over current UIUC 1Ls. Sure the medians dropped like rocks, but that's the risk you take when you matriculate at law school.

CanadianWolf
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:59 pm

Apparently I am not good at conveying humor on the internet. It was a joke.

(I guess that I need to start using the smilie faces.)

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JCougar
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby JCougar » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:16 pm

Helmholtz wrote:I'm willing to give somebody the benefit of the doubt, but if it was mistake, (1) it was one hell of a convenient mistake (both number metrics just happen to be extremely overinflated?), and (2) holy shit, what a gigantic mistake (5 LSAT points?!? It wasn't like somebody accidentally entered 3.65 into the system instead of 3.56, and even if they did, I'm sure these things are double-checked, then double-checked again, and then somebody else double-checks the double-checks).


Additionally, it's not like these numbers just got entered onto some form that nobody ever looked at. They were published to the school's website and probably circulated around many times internally in e-mails, etc. Everyone in the department probably wanted to know what the new medians were. Probably everybody in the rest of the school administration, too.

These are the most important numbers an admissions office deals with on a day-to-day basis. These are numbers that admissions deans probably check and double check on an hourly basis near the seat deposit deadlines, etc. They're numbers you send out to the CSO so they can promote the school to employers. The people in charge of this stuff check it at least every day. To think that the number got entered into the website and was up there for many weeks before anyone ever noticed that it was wrong is really stretching it. Since 168 was a new record for Illinois, I'm sure Pless heard many accolades and congratulations on his accomplishment.

Plus, if the median really did drop to 163, you have one hell of a motive to lie. Pless likely would have probably been fired anyways had the truth come out. Schools spend millions of dollars trying to buy these medians. I'd hate to be the guy who just blew $5 million on scholarship money only to come back reporting a 163 median...when you're a top 25 school.
Last edited by JCougar on Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:33 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Apparently I am not good at conveying humor on the internet. It was a joke.

(I guess that I need to start using the smilie faces.)

Or, be better at communicating humor, since you're 0/2 on this page alone.




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