U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

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minnbills
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby minnbills » Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:05 pm

JCougar wrote:Or 75th percentile, I meant. :)


self facepalm... oh well

Wart
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Wart » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:20 pm

.
Last edited by Wart on Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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chrisbru
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby chrisbru » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:34 pm

Wart wrote:Update: Dean Smith is holding meetings tomorrow for all the students to learn more about what's going on. Not sure if we'll get to ask questions or not but hopefully he'll shed some more light on the situation and be frank about it.


Be sure to keep us posted on things you can. Please and thanks.

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Cornelius
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Cornelius » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:36 pm

Because of the way the numbers work ("just get 50th percentile as high as possible, even if even the 49th percentiles are vastly shittier numbers"), small variations in yield can fuck up medians.

Entirely possible given that what's being reported is the median, not the mean. If you're traditionally cutting it close with the medians (i.e. maybe your 40th percentile is still only a 163 and it jumps around the 45th percentile from the reverse splitters to the splitters), there's a drop in applications across the board, some of your above-both-75ths big money admits turn you down for other schools, and you have a particularly crappy yield among splitters, a one-year drop like this is not out of the question.

It's possible that the average LSAT/GPA for the school is pretty close for last year and this year while the median had a huge drop.

BeenDidThat
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby BeenDidThat » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:42 pm

Helmholtz wrote:Is UIUC the school that allowed all those people (who had awful numbers) into the law school because of the "connections" the students had?

If so, UIUC is seriously making itself a contender for Shadiest Supposedly-Reputable Law School of the Decade.


So sad to see such a pristine state afflicted by news of such unprecedented corruption.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:49 pm

Cornelius wrote:Entirely possible given that what's being reported is the median, not the mean. If you're traditionally cutting it close with the medians (i.e. maybe your 40th percentile is still only a 163 and it jumps around the 45th percentile from the reverse splitters to the splitters), there's a drop in applications across the board, some of your above-both-75ths big money admits turn you down for other schools, and you have a particularly crappy yield among splitters, a one-year drop like this is not out of the question.



Again, this would be plausible except for the fact that it never happens to any other schools ever.

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minnbills
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby minnbills » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:52 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:Again, this would be plausible except for the fact that it never happens to any other schools ever.


While I agree that the long-term book-cooking scenario seems most likely, it is possible that other schools are just lying about their #s this year because of a bad cycle as well, and UIUC has been the only one caught so far.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:53 pm

minnbills wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:Again, this would be plausible except for the fact that it never happens to any other schools ever.


While I agree that the long-term book-cooking scenario seems most likely, it is possible that other schools are just lying about their #s this year because of a bad cycle as well, and UIUC has been the only one caught so far.


So either UIUC cooked the books for many years, or dozens of other schools are lying and getting away with it. Either way, it makes for some juicy fodder.

Sandro
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Sandro » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:56 pm

UMN gave anyone with a 167 (median) half scholarship fwiw.

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minnbills
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby minnbills » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:57 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:So either UIUC cooked the books for many years, or dozens of other schools are lying and getting away with it. Either way, it makes for some juicy fodder.


It's been going on with employment stats for years so I don't see why it's unthinkable they would do the same for medians.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:58 pm

minnbills wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:So either UIUC cooked the books for many years, or dozens of other schools are lying and getting away with it. Either way, it makes for some juicy fodder.


It's been going on with employment stats for years so I don't see why it's unthinkable they would do the same for medians.


This is different from employment stats. Those are massaged in such a way as to appear better than reality, but medians are much more straightforward. Just take the middle GPA and middle LSAT out of the entire class and you have your median.

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blurbz
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby blurbz » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:59 pm

minnbills wrote:It's been going on with employment stats for years so I don't see why it's unthinkable they would do the same for medians.


Because it's a lot easier to get caught.

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minnbills
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby minnbills » Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:04 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:This is different from employment stats. Those are massaged in such a way as to appear better than reality, but medians are much more straightforward. Just take the middle GPA and middle LSAT out of the entire class and you have your median.


Well the real difference is that the employment stats are able to be fudged because of poor standards from USnews, which probably isn't the case with medians.

I just think it will be very interesting if they scrutinize past class profiles closely.

Because it's a lot easier to get caught.


Well at least one school did it- and was caught because of a whistle blower. I'm not saying it's likely I'm just saying it's possible that this is widespread.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:05 pm

I just think it will be very interesting if they scrutinize past class profiles closely.


Definitely.

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TCScrutinizer
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby TCScrutinizer » Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:50 pm

blurbz wrote:
minnbills wrote:It's been going on with employment stats for years so I don't see why it's unthinkable they would do the same for medians.


Because it's a lot easier to get caught.


Exactly. It's a lot harder to disprove that "90% of our students have legal work within 9 months of graduation" than it is to disprove your LSAT median.

Total Litigator
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Total Litigator » Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:01 pm

What is ironic is that it might actually be beneficial for Illinois to say (admit?) that they have been fudging their numbers for years. Then they might be able to retain past employers, who can then feel better about the quality of the class of 2014 as compared to the classes they have hired from in the past. At the very least they could communicate this fact to those employers, although I doubt the information would stay confidential for long...

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PDaddy
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby PDaddy » Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:03 pm

I am just pissed that the schools have been lying. Does anyone think 'Nova and UIUC are the only schools that have been doing this? WTF!?

There has been a 10-year GPA/LSAT arms race that has hurt many deserving students of all backgrounds, but especially URMs in California and Washington, and any other states with anti-AA legislation/statutes. Oh yes...I think (all of) the Cali schools have been engaging in it too.

Coupled with Proposition 209, this has no doubt been a lethal combination for keeping URM's out of law school in that state. On top of that, the hypocrisy of it all - if we applicants fudge our numbers, they ruin our life and keep our money - really makes my blood boil.

I am pissed at every law school in the country right now because I suspect that they have all done it...Yes...you too, Yale! HYS have their own rivalry, and no one should believe that they are beyond reproach just because they happen to be ranked at the top. I have long said that this is fraud, and that's what it is.

Right now, the law school admins can kiss me where the sun don't shine. How dare they!?

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... y_at_issue

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PDaddy
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby PDaddy » Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:15 pm

TCScrutinizer wrote:
blurbz wrote:
minnbills wrote:It's been going on with employment stats for years so I don't see why it's unthinkable they would do the same for medians.


Because it's a lot easier to get caught.


Exactly. It's a lot harder to disprove that "90% of our students have legal work within 9 months of graduation" than it is to disprove your LSAT median.


"Legal work" isn't even the standard; it's a non-issue because "legal" isn't a requirement. With the proper oversight/controls in place, it would be equally simple to catch the cheaters. But the ABA has failed to take a simple step: define "employment" for the purposes of law school data and hold the schools to the strict standard.

Secondly, they already have an established clearinghouse (LSAC/LSDAS) that compiles accurate data, yet failed to take the reporting out of the hands of the schools. This would have been simple, and the beauty of that prospect is that the LSAC is a disinterested body with no incentive for fudging data. Why hasn't the ABA just employed the LSAC for reporting the data?

Also, Villanova and Illinois should lose their accreditations. There is evidence that UIUC has been doing this a long time, starting with the fact that their self-reported data from last year almost mirrored this year's false data.

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chrisbru
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby chrisbru » Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:17 pm

PDaddy wrote:I am just pissed that the schools have been lying. Does anyone think 'Nova and UIUC are the only schools that have been doing this? WTF!?

There has been a 10-year GPA/LSAT arms race that has hurt many deserving students of all backgrounds, but especially URMs in California and Washington, and any other states with anti-AA legislation/statutes. Oh yes...I think (all of) the Cali schools have been engaging in it too.

Coupled with Proposition 209, this has no doubt been a lethal combination for keeping URM's out of law school in that state. On top of that, the hypocrisy of it all - if we applicants fudge our numbers, they ruin our life and keep our money - really makes my blood boil.

I am pissed at every law school in the country right now because I suspect that they have all done it...Yes...you too, Yale! HYS have their own rivalry, and no one should believe that they are beyond reproach just because they happen to be ranked at the top. I have long said that this is fraud, and that's what it is.

Right now, the law school admins can kiss me where the sun don't shine. How dare they!?

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... y_at_issue


To be fair, I think at least some schools have been honest.

For example (I am a bit biased, of course) Iowa has gotten flack for being ranked so highly despite our LSAT median being only a 161. I doubt that we've fudged that at all over the years.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby JamMasterJ » Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:22 pm

comet_halley wrote:
JamMasterJ wrote:
flyingbamboo wrote:Guys. The second statement was purely sarcasm referencing all the stupid "I can't believe I got rejected from this school even though they have such low medians" comments.

My point is please try to be a bit sensitive to the people who are students at Illinois. I understand the desire to speculate on what's going on, but it's not necessary to make demoralizing comments in the process. So one law student to another, just try to be considerate in your remarks. I'm not trying to be defensive in any way. Have a good night.

Um, not what I was saying. I was surprised because I originally thought I was denied because I was below both medians. Well, now that I find out that I'm significantly above one, it makes me a little confused as to why I wasn't at least waitlisted (don't make any stupid, "maybe your app wasn't any good" comments. I got into a school where I was below both medians.). I'm not crying that I didn't get in, just mildly surprised.


It's easy to explain that situation.

The school's median LSAT target was 168, so all splitters with 168 were admitted, and all those167 were waitlisted, and all those 166 were denied.

When they found out that the yield rate of 168s was so low, they didn't have enough waitlisters to maintain the median.
so they decided to fudge the number. maybe just about 20 peoples.

because the school had accepted so many splitters, they had to accept a lot of reverse -splitters to maintain their GPA, and those reverse-splitters LSAT were mostly below 163.

At last, they didn't matriculate enough 168 students,that's why its LSAT downed for 5 point

To qualify my statement, I guess I meant that I was surprised that people with good but not stellar numbers like mine weren't waitlisted.

It's possible that the average LSAT/GPA for the school is pretty close for last year and this year while the median had a huge drop.[/quote]
Cornelius wrote:
Because of the way the numbers work ("just get 50th percentile as high as possible, even if even the 49th percentiles are vastly shittier numbers"), small variations in yield can fuck up medians.

Entirely possible given that what's being reported is the median, not the mean. If you're traditionally cutting it close with the medians (i.e. maybe your 40th percentile is still only a 163 and it jumps around the 45th percentile from the reverse splitters to the splitters), there's a drop in applications across the board, some of your above-both-75ths big money admits turn you down for other schools, and you have a particularly crappy yield among splitters, a one-year drop like this is not out of the question.

It's possible that the average LSAT/GPA for the school is pretty close for last year and this year while the median had a huge drop.


I've always thought that they should report the mean of the middle 50%

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NiccoloA
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby NiccoloA » Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:56 pm

So...


Don't go to UIUC if you're accepted? How will this affect the reputation of the law school? T1 to T2? Possible? :?

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Aqualibrium » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:15 pm

NiccoloA wrote:So...


Don't go to UIUC if you're accepted? How will this affect the reputation of the law school? T1 to T2? Possible? :?



Their medians, coupled with the decline of the Chicago market puts them squarely in the low t1 - t2 range imo.

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Cornelius
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Cornelius » Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:12 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
Cornelius wrote:Entirely possible given that what's being reported is the median, not the mean. If you're traditionally cutting it close with the medians (i.e. maybe your 40th percentile is still only a 163 and it jumps around the 45th percentile from the reverse splitters to the splitters), there's a drop in applications across the board, some of your above-both-75ths big money admits turn you down for other schools, and you have a particularly crappy yield among splitters, a one-year drop like this is not out of the question.



Again, this would be plausible except for the fact that it never happens to any other schools ever.

How many other schools play the splitter game as intensely and had a drastically reduced class size this year?

I'm sure there's some models/formulas that guide them on how many people to accept, in what ranges, based on historical yield to get the numbers and class size they want. The models always work, until they don't.

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mez06
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby mez06 » Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:28 pm

Aqualibrium wrote:
NiccoloA wrote:So...


Don't go to UIUC if you're accepted? How will this affect the reputation of the law school? T1 to T2? Possible? :?



Their medians, coupled with the decline of the Chicago market puts them squarely in the low t1 - t2 range imo.


I think that's a bit extreme and unlikely. Drop? Of course. T2 status? Doubt it. Willing to make a wager? I'm thinking my student loans for yours? muahah

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:31 pm

When was the last time a Tier One school even had a two point drop?

I don't think Illinois was the first or last to do this kind of thing. But let's not kid ourselves. It would take an unprecedented disaster by an admissions office to see a drop from 167 to 163. If it had happened even once before to a respected school I'd give Illinois the benefit of the doubt and say they just really fucked up.




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