U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

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splittinghairs
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby splittinghairs » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:20 pm

danquayle wrote:People in this thread are acting like they just found Santa Claus Dean Pless isn't real.

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danquayle
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby danquayle » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:29 pm

I doubt this will change how Illinois is perceived by the legal community or how well it does in OCI. It might effect US News, but - as TLS consensus seems to support - US News is at best a leading indicator of the things that really matter.

I'd like to know if this has been happening for a while. The only real potential victims here are those students who thought they had sub-median numbers, but really didn't, and took less scholarship money on account of them getting a "lucky" admission into Illinois. That's probably not sound reasoning to begin with, but some people do think that way.

Competing law schools will surely consider themselves victims as well. I'm sure peers like Indiana are burning to point out their now significantly superior numbers.

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2014
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby 2014 » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:30 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
2014 wrote:Read DF's post a few pages back regarding poor management of splitters vs reverse splitters. I don't know if its likely but it would be possible and would explain a drop in LSAT.


Yeah, I read it to explain how a few students could screw up the median. But I thought you were saying that removing students, who have a high GPA but no LSAT, from the calculation lowered the LSAT medians.

Nah I think it's possible that the lower LSAT and lower GPA medians could have different causes that happened concurrently. Again it's not likely or anything, but it's one plausible explanation.

splittinghairs
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby splittinghairs » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:33 pm

danquayle wrote:I doubt this will change how Illinois is perceived by the legal community or how well it does in OCI. It might effect US News, but - as TLS consensus seems to support - US News is at best a leading indicator of the things that really matter.

I'd like to know if this has been happening for a while. The only real potential victims here are those students who thought they had sub-median numbers, but really didn't, and took less scholarship money on account of them getting a "lucky" admission into Illinois. That's probably not sound reasoning to begin with, but some people do think that way.

Competing law schools will surely consider themselves victims as well. I'm sure peers like Indiana are burning to point out their now significantly superior numbers.


Sorry, i dont consider a school that will likely see its applications and matriculation rate rise next year due to applicants who are scared of UIUC a "victim"

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danquayle
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby danquayle » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:36 pm

Indifferent wrote:
Voyager wrote:
Indifferent wrote:
Voyager wrote:Here is another thought: if they are willing to do this with admissions stats (which are difficult to fudge without getting caught), what the hell do you guys think is going on with the employment numbers?

Those must be way way way off.

Yes, but you see, deceiving students with deceptive, self-reported employment information is normal. This is EGREGIOUS.


heh. fair, friend, fair.

On the other hand, it is the employment stats that really matter as the whole goal of the 3 year deal is to get a good job, not to be able to brag about the median LSAT score.

True, and I don't think most employers are basing their hiring on the median GPA/LSAT of any respective school.

I think the misrepresentation by the administration of Illinois was more egregious in that it is going to hurt the school's reputation with future applicants (and possibly donors/employers who help the school based on their falsely reported numbers).

While obviously students at the school are justifiably outraged, I doubt this scandal will have a significant impact on the employment prospects of current students.


Agree

lawloser22
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby lawloser22 » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:37 pm

Last I checked, people accepted through I-LEAP are not ALLOWED to take the LSAT. Maybe this has changed, but in the past, I-LEAP applications have been binding after a certain point in the admissions process.

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danquayle
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby danquayle » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:38 pm

splittinghairs wrote:
danquayle wrote:I doubt this will change how Illinois is perceived by the legal community or how well it does in OCI. It might effect US News, but - as TLS consensus seems to support - US News is at best a leading indicator of the things that really matter.

I'd like to know if this has been happening for a while. The only real potential victims here are those students who thought they had sub-median numbers, but really didn't, and took less scholarship money on account of them getting a "lucky" admission into Illinois. That's probably not sound reasoning to begin with, but some people do think that way.

Competing law schools will surely consider themselves victims as well. I'm sure peers like Indiana are burning to point out their now significantly superior numbers.


Sorry, i dont consider a school that will likely see its applications and matriculation rate rise next year due to applicants who are scared of UIUC a "victim"


I mean a victim if there was persistent fudging of numbers over the last few years. Indiana, Notre Dame, Wash U and all the Chicago schools will probably get some Illinois scandal run-off. I think its overstated here though. Illinois might drop into the 30s, but I doubt all or even many legal employers will hear about this.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby JoeFish » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:40 pm

I'm pretty sure the iLeap thing doesn't have anything to do with anything. Is that a real number, a total of 12 iLeapers in our class? Because I know 7 of them. And none of those 7 took the LSAT. And their GPAs ranged between 4.0 and 3.5. Can't imagine the other 5 are any different.

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danquayle
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby danquayle » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:43 pm

anthropologieaddict wrote:
NancyBotwin wrote:
Sapientia wrote:1L here.

Extremely pissed off. I'm not sure why anyone insists on defending the faculty at UIUC. It is obviously filled with a bunch of half-wits. I would not have come to this school had I known that this crap was going on.

You should probably leave then.

And we're talking about the administration staff. Not the faculty. If you think the faculty are halfwits, you really should leave.


+1
I am an Illinois 1L also. If you're really that mad, it's week 5 so cut your losses and go. If you were so great that you could have had better opportunities elsewhere then by all means, reapply.


What I don't get is that so far its only confirmed THIS YEAR's numbers were fudged. All the current 1Ls didn't know the current class profile when they made their choice to attend, right? This kind of "I'm going to quit" outrage only makes sense if this misreporting happened last year as well, which isn't clear yet.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby splittinghairs » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:46 pm

danquayle wrote:
splittinghairs wrote:
danquayle wrote:I doubt this will change how Illinois is perceived by the legal community or how well it does in OCI. It might effect US News, but - as TLS consensus seems to support - US News is at best a leading indicator of the things that really matter.

I'd like to know if this has been happening for a while. The only real potential victims here are those students who thought they had sub-median numbers, but really didn't, and took less scholarship money on account of them getting a "lucky" admission into Illinois. That's probably not sound reasoning to begin with, but some people do think that way.

Competing law schools will surely consider themselves victims as well. I'm sure peers like Indiana are burning to point out their now significantly superior numbers.


Sorry, i dont consider a school that will likely see its applications and matriculation rate rise next year due to applicants who are scared of UIUC a "victim"


I mean a victim if there was persistent fudging of numbers over the last few years. Indiana, Notre Dame, Wash U and all the Chicago schools will probably get some Illinois scandal run-off. I think its overstated here though. Illinois might drop into the 30s, but I doubt all or even many legal employers will hear about this.


i think you may not realize just how big a 5 point drop in lsat and .11 in GPA is. Around 25% of USNews methodology is based on those two variables. I can easily see the school drop to the 40s at least based on the median lsat and GPA of schools in the 35-60 range. Remember that slight variations can cause huge changes for schools in this range.

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danquayle
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby danquayle » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:48 pm

splittinghairs wrote:
danquayle wrote:
splittinghairs wrote:
danquayle wrote:I doubt this will change how Illinois is perceived by the legal community or how well it does in OCI. It might effect US News, but - as TLS consensus seems to support - US News is at best a leading indicator of the things that really matter.

I'd like to know if this has been happening for a while. The only real potential victims here are those students who thought they had sub-median numbers, but really didn't, and took less scholarship money on account of them getting a "lucky" admission into Illinois. That's probably not sound reasoning to begin with, but some people do think that way.

Competing law schools will surely consider themselves victims as well. I'm sure peers like Indiana are burning to point out their now significantly superior numbers.


Sorry, i dont consider a school that will likely see its applications and matriculation rate rise next year due to applicants who are scared of UIUC a "victim"


I mean a victim if there was persistent fudging of numbers over the last few years. Indiana, Notre Dame, Wash U and all the Chicago schools will probably get some Illinois scandal run-off. I think its overstated here though. Illinois might drop into the 30s, but I doubt all or even many legal employers will hear about this.


i think you may not realize just how big a 5 point drop in lsat and .11 in GPA is. Around 25% of USNews methodology is based on those two variables. I can easily see the school drop to the 40s at least based on the median lsat and GPA of schools in the 35-60 range. Remember that slight variations can cause huge changes for schools in this range.


I'm not undervaluing the effect of these numbers on US News. I'm undervaluing the effect of US News on reality.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby JusticeHarlan » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:54 pm

f7 wrote:
splittinghairs wrote:
danquayle wrote:People in this thread are acting like they just found Santa Claus Dean PlessPaulo Vunter Slaush isn't real.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby splittinghairs » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:55 pm

danquayle wrote:
anthropologieaddict wrote:
NancyBotwin wrote:
Sapientia wrote:1L here.

Extremely pissed off. I'm not sure why anyone insists on defending the faculty at UIUC. It is obviously filled with a bunch of half-wits. I would not have come to this school had I known that this crap was going on.

You should probably leave then.

And we're talking about the administration staff. Not the faculty. If you think the faculty are halfwits, you really should leave.


+1
I am an Illinois 1L also. If you're really that mad, it's week 5 so cut your losses and go. If you were so great that you could have had better opportunities elsewhere then by all means, reapply.


What I don't get is that so far its only confirmed THIS YEAR's numbers were fudged. All the current 1Ls didn't know the current class profile when they made their choice to attend, right? This kind of "I'm going to quit" outrage only makes sense if this misreporting happened last year as well, which isn't clear yet.


I totally agree with you here. If 163 is the median it seems that at least 50% of the class have a 164 lsat or less, they shouldnt be complaining. If you had a 166-168 lsat, your decision to attend was more based on the 167 of last year and not based on a median that you didnt even know of. Therefore, if the lsat from years prior were real then you guys have about the same amount of gripe as students matriculating at a school that sees its median lsat drop. It cant be argued that the mistake lsat from this year somehow misled you.

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DerrickRose
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby DerrickRose » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:56 pm

JoeFish wrote:I'm pretty sure the iLeap thing doesn't have anything to do with anything. Is that a real number, a total of 12 iLeapers in our class? Because I know 7 of them. And none of those 7 took the LSAT. And their GPAs ranged between 4.0 and 3.5. Can't imagine the other 5 are any different.


Way to rain on my parade. :wink:

But seriously, are people just volunteering this information? People were super awkward about LSAT stuff when I was a 1L.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby MrAnon » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:57 pm

Let's discuss who at the top would have benefited from these fudging the numbers shenanigans. The way I see it, the admissions officers and the deans all get to say that they presided over a meteoric rise in the admissions matrix and selectivity at UIUC, so they can look for more prestigious jobs at better schools. Who else stands to benefit?

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby splittinghairs » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:00 pm


I'm not undervaluing the effect of these numbers on US News. I'm undervaluing the effect of US News on reality.


It can certainly be argued and probably is in fact accurate that USnews rankings do not reflect actual hiring. but to claim that it doesnt affect reality much at all would be incorrect. It certainly affects the application pool, the makeup of the class, and the reputation of the school

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DerrickRose
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby DerrickRose » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:00 pm

MrAnon wrote:Let's discuss who at the top would have benefited from these fudging the numbers shenanigans. The way I see it, the admissions officers and the deans all get to say that they presided over a meteoric rise in the admissions matrix and selectivity at UIUC, so they can look for more prestigious jobs at better schools. Who else stands to benefit?


Everyone. Alumni, current students, future students, professors, the University at large, the state's legal community. I mean, you gotta realize, the way the system works, if you fake the numbers for long enough, eventually they become real.

The incentive to cheat is massive compared to the possible penalties. It's not altogether unlike the NCAA in that way.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby MrAnon » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:01 pm

DerrickRose wrote:
MrAnon wrote:Let's discuss who at the top would have benefited from these fudging the numbers shenanigans. The way I see it, the admissions officers and the deans all get to say that they presided over a meteoric rise in the admissions matrix and selectivity at UIUC, so they can look for more prestigious jobs at better schools. Who else stands to benefit?


Everyone. Alumni, current students, future students, professors, the University at large, the state's legal community. I mean, you gotta realize, the way the system works, if you fake the numbers for long enough, eventually they become real.

The incentive to cheat is massive compared to the possible penalties. It's not altogether unlike the NCAA in that way.


I didnt realize this has been going on for more than a year? Is that just speculation on the part of the thread?

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DerrickRose
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby DerrickRose » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:03 pm

MrAnon wrote:I didnt realize this has been going on for more than a year? Is that just speculation on the part of the thread?


There has been no official mention whatsoever that this extends beyond the 2014 class, and there's every reason to believe that they would have said something if it did.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby romothesavior » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:15 pm

splittinghairs wrote:

I'm not undervaluing the effect of these numbers on US News. I'm undervaluing the effect of US News on reality.


It can certainly be argued and probably is in fact accurate that USnews rankings do not reflect actual hiring. but to claim that it doesnt affect reality much at all would be incorrect. It certainly affects the application pool, the makeup of the class, and the reputation of the school

All of which, over time, affect hiring. It could have an effect.

I have argued (pretty vigorously) in the past that USNWR does not affect hiring much at all, and I still believe that. A dip here or there or a rise a few spots will have almost no discernible impact for students, especially if the school fluctuates a lot or is jumping/falling around schools in other regions of the country. And firms simply don't care that much about USNWR.

But this is a lot different. In the past, a drop of 5-6 spots for a T1 school was considered huge. UIUC could easily drop 20-30 spots from this. Their LSAT/GPA scores are dramatically lower, and their reputational score is almost certainly going to drop. That's what, like half the USNWR rankings right there? Firms may notice that, and they may also be turned off by the scandal and having been lied to about job prospects (especially if this has been an ongoing thing over the past few years).

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby romothesavior » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:22 pm

DerrickRose wrote:
MrAnon wrote:I didnt realize this has been going on for more than a year? Is that just speculation on the part of the thread?


There has been no official mention whatsoever that this extends beyond the 2014 class, and there's every reason to believe that they would have said something if it did.

Yes, it is speculation and I'm inclined to think it was a one-year thing, but it also wouldn't surprise me if this has been going on for years. Deans are constantly checking their medians (pretty much daily throughout the summer), so if it was going to wind up being a 163, somebody would have known. I love Pless and I don't want this to be outright dishonestly, but it seems so implausible that this was just some mistake. Why couldn't they have easily done this in years past?

Aside from the dishonesty, the other implausible aspect of all this is that UIUC could drop 5 LSAT points in one year while simultaneously shrinking their class size. And don't give me this "Oh it was a down year for admissions" crap. No other T1 saw anything like a 5 point drop. WUSTL actually went up a point. Even if Pless had been honest about it all along, he would have caught a ton of heat for a huge 5 point drop. That is just a poor job by admissions.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby TCScrutinizer » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:32 pm

DerrickRose wrote:
MrAnon wrote:I didnt realize this has been going on for more than a year? Is that just speculation on the part of the thread?


There has been no official mention whatsoever that this extends beyond the 2014 class, and there's every reason to believe that they would have said something if it did.


I think your optimism is misplaced. The investigators are simply waiting to see how far the rabbit hole goes before releasing any info.

The only way this misreporting is confined to the class of 2014 is if it was either a botched cover-up of an honest mistake or itself an honest mistake early on in the admissions process that affected how the rest of the class was chosen.

If there is misfeasance on the part of the school, then it has to go further than the class of 2014. How could the medians drop that much if it were otherwise?

Either this has been going on for years, or admissions somehow fucked up the offers and were trying to play cover-my-anus.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby JCougar » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:36 pm

romothesavior wrote:What is really surprising is that they shrunk the class by so much and still got destroyed on their LSAT median. You'd think they'd be able to easily maintain it by throwing more money at the top candidates, which is what we did at WUSTL this year. It would have taken a miserable year of admissions to manage a 5 point drop.

I'm not the best at math, but I did understand DF's example of how this 5-point drop could happen. But not everyone at UIUC is either at a 163 or a 168. UIUC probably takes 10+ students in every class with a 164, 165, 166, or 167. If a few of your 167/168s matriculated elsewhere, that would only bump you down a point or two. But a 5 point drop? That's outrageous. I wouldn't be surprised if UIUC has been fudging for years.


This is why I can't totally buy DF's theory. It's certainly possible, but when forming a class, I'm sure a lot of schools overshoot the median to give themselves some wiggle room. So if you have a class of 200, you probably fill it with 110 LSATs above median just to be safe...in case of last minute changes like one of them getting off the waitlist at a T10 late in the cycle. So the UIUC c/o 2013 was likely made up of 53% or so 167+. Then you got 166-164 people above the GPA median. Then you got the fact that its a home state school that attracts a lot of home staters, and not the prestige whores that would relocate to anywhere in the country to go to a school ranked 5 spots higher. I can't see last year's class composing of less than 70% of people 164+. For their matriculation rate to drop so substantially in one year seems implausible when they were still handing out generous scholarships. Given the 163 actual median, they must have had about a 60% decrease in matriculation rate among those with LSATs above median. Indiana's schollies could have contributed to this, combined with WUSTL doubling their splitter scholarships, but that's still an enormous drop. Its easier for me to believe the numbers have been fudged for a while.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Kabuo » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:43 pm

JCougar wrote:This is why I can't totally buy DF's theory. It's certainly possible, but when forming a class, I'm sure a lot of schools overshoot the median to give themselves some wiggle room. So if you have a class of 200, you probably fill it with 110 LSATs above median just to be safe...in case of last minute changes like one of them getting off the waitlist at a T10 late in the cycle. So the UIUC c/o 2013 was likely made up of 53% or so 167+. Then you got 166-164 people above the GPA median. Then you got the fact that its a home state school that attracts a lot of home staters, and not the prestige whores that would relocate to anywhere in the country to go to a school ranked 5 spots higher. I can't see last year's class composing of less than 70% of people 164+. For their matriculation rate to drop so substantially in one year seems implausible when they were still handing out generous scholarships. Given the 163 actual median, they must have had about a 60% decrease in matriculation rate among those with LSATs above median. Indiana's schollies could have contributed to this, combined with WUSTL doubling their splitter scholarships, but that's still an enormous drop. Its easier for me to believe the numbers have been fudged for a while.


I know splitters who successfully used their WUSTL schollies to get more than WUSTL was offering at UIUC. Seems like they were willing to at least match, which makes it more perplexing.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby bouakedojo » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:47 pm

I guess the ABA only checks the records for LSATs and GPAs for law schools every seven years as part of accreditation.

http://www.law.com/jsp/tx/PubArticleTX. ... 2514909433




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