U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

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splittinghairs
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby splittinghairs » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:13 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Actually, Villanova & Illinois law students may support this since "misery loves company" & it will deflect negative press from their law schools.

An ABA audit is unlikely, but the ABA should require submission of only certified numbers signed under oath by both law school deans at each institution.


splittinghairs wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:The ABA probably doesn't want to audit all law schools because it is afraid of what may be uncovered.


Not to mention that students not attending UIUC or Villanova arent exactly gonna be pushing for this.

School administrations themselves obviously wont want this, so I doubt this would happen.


That was my point exactly, only nova and UIUC would want this to happen, and of course applicants in general would want this

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stratocophic
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby stratocophic » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:14 pm

romothesavior wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:The ABA probably doesn't want to audit all law schools because it is afraid of what may be uncovered.

P.S. @Stratocophic: WashUStL is slightly ahead of Illinois with respect to NLJ250 placement, but the 9 month employment figures as reported in USNews have illinois ahead of WashUStL & Indiana.

The only employment statistic that really matters is the NLJ 250 number, because it is the only one that is even close to accurate (because the school doesn't get the chance to fudge it all to hell). I could poop on a piece of paper and it would be more useful than the "Employed at 9 Months" figure. I can't believe someone who has been on TLS as long as you would even try to cite that as a valid metric.
:lol:

CanadianWolf
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:15 pm

All potential law students should favor certified reporting of admissions & employment numbers as a consumer protection measure.

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shortporch
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby shortporch » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:16 pm

At the risk of engaging a number of trolls and reactionaries....

I think a great many comments here miss the mark. The immediate anger expressed by 1Ls seems to be that they're upset that they're part of a bad class. But the deception regarding the numbers doesn't change that. This is a particularly difficult year for a number of law schools. Applications are down almost universally, many by double-digit percentages. Schools are trying to maintain or improve the statistics for their incoming class. Sometimes, those efforts fall short. Illinois is a public school in a state with one of the most significant financial crises in the country--I think they were having trouble cutting checks to the university to pay the bills at some point. Perhaps scholarships were trimmed. And then the yield wasn't what admissions wanted. It happens. Perhaps not usually so notably, but it happens.

That, in turn, may lead to a drop in the U.S. News rankings. But it's the hilarious absurdity of TLS, among other sources, that continues to drive the pressure for deans to fudge the number (not saying it's justified, and see below). 10 years ago, Illinois had medians substantially below 163/3.7. But, really, has anything changed from this year's incoming class? The numerical medians of GPA and LSAT have declined. Has the law school brought in fewer individuals with work experience? Fewer women? Fewer minorities? Fewer undergraduates from elite institutions? Fewer engineers or accountants? Will practitioners in Chicago interview fewer Illinois students in 2012? Will Prof. Leiter think that Illinois's scholarly reputation has diminished?

Of course not, or presumably not. At a micro level, there was a problem with admissions this year. But it doesn't indicate any problems at the macro level. Does it? Can you indicate something substantial?

Instead, Illinois will continue to be among the top ten schools for placement in Chicagoland. It will have the third or fourth strongest statewide reputation. Its graduates will obtain employment at comparable rates as previous years, depending on the national economy.

When I think back to all the kinds of "problems" that arise from U.S. News rankings debacles, it's only a few that occur by rank mismanagement (and some that continue to this day, but shall remain nameless)--inability of deans to fundraise, to retain high quality faculty, and so on.

The University of Houston experienced a couple of years of drops, from around 50 to around 70 or so, and its dean was forced to resign because of the kind of short-sighted, narrow, simplistic outcry prompted here. (And there were actual drops, not projected like here--and there are, of course, many schools that experience one-year drops, like George Washington to cite recent memory; and many that experience one-year jumps, like Indiana, again.) It was a couple of years of drops in the U.S. News rankings. Rabid detractors, foaming at the mouth, called for her resignation.

Houston has returned to something in the mid-50s. But, of course, in that time, nothing particularly changed. Houston employers still highly valued Houston graduates; there was no serious turnover in faculty or change in scholarly reputation; Texas bar passage remained similar. Nothing tangible affected the students.

Not to say that the U.S. News rankings are meaningless. They're not. But interpreting them, like some are suggesting, in this light (and, by proxy, interpreting a one-year drop in LSAT and GPA medians in this light) is misguided, in my view.

The deception, of course, may run deeper. And the deception is symptomatic of a number of issues running across higher education generally. And the deception is not something I condone. The ABA and AALS have rooted out this kind of deception before, and they'll continue to do so. Perhaps less effectively than one would prefer.

But, for all of you 1Ls creating monikers to half-heartedly suggest you'd drop out, cool it. And you people speculating about what employers do have no clue how a hiring committee at an NLJ250 firm looks at the world.

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DerrickRose
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby DerrickRose » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:18 pm

From the completely unsubstantiated rumor bin that I thought of today and will now share:

Illinois has a program called iLeap that is an experimental thing that the ABA is allowing on a five-year test basis. Essentially it allows Illinois undergrads to apply and be admitted to Illinois law school without taking the LSAT. They use ACT scores and various other hoops that other applicants wouldn't have to go through. This started with the class of 2013, I'm not sure on the number of students admitted.

What if the discrepancy in the medians is the result of Illinois admitting reverse splitters through the iLeap program and then just not reporting their LSAT scores? Wouldn't that be a plausible explanation? The program would essentially allow you to pad the stats with a bunch of 3.8's and 3.9's, while having no effect on the LSAT number at all. Those students would likely take the LSAT eventually anyway to see if they could get into a better school, but if they bomb it, then they probably fall back on their Illinois acceptance, right? Then does Illinois report those scores or not? In hypothetical defense of our admissions department, why should they? Those students were already admitted.

Just a thought I had. I doubt we ever find out the full story here, I don't get the sense that Bruce Smith is the sort of guy that runs an organization that leaks.

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shortporch
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby shortporch » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:20 pm

DerrickRose wrote:From the completely unsubstantiated rumor bin that I thought of today and will now share:

Illinois has a program called iLeap that is an experimental thing that the ABA is allowing on a five-year test basis. Essentially it allows Illinois undergrads to apply and be admitted to Illinois law school without taking the LSAT. They use ACT scores and various other hoops that other applicants wouldn't have to go through. This started with the class of 2013, I'm not sure on the number of students admitted.

What if the discrepancy in the medians is the result of Illinois admitting reverse splitters through the iLeap program and then just not reporting their LSAT scores? Wouldn't that be a plausible explanation? The program would essentially allow you to pad the stats with a bunch of 3.8's and 3.9's, while having no effect on the LSAT number at all. Those students would likely take the LSAT eventually anyway to see if they could get into a better school, but if they bomb it, then they probably fall back on their Illinois acceptance, right? Then does Illinois report those scores or not? In hypothetical defense of our admissions department, why should they? Those students were already admitted.

Just a thought I had. I doubt we ever find out the full story here, I don't get the sense that Bruce Smith is the sort of guy that runs an organization that leaks.


There were just 12 offers extended for the Class of 2014 through that program: --LinkRemoved--

splittinghairs
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby splittinghairs » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:21 pm

tennisking88 wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
splittinghairs wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:The ABA probably doesn't want to audit all law schools because it is afraid of what may be uncovered.


Not to mention that students not attending UIUC or Villanova arent exactly gonna be pushing for this.

School administrations themselves obviously wont want this, so I doubt this would happen.


I'm not sure how many school administrations have the balls to outright lie about black-and-white numbers. Sure, you can massage employment numbers to make them appear better than they actually are by doing things like "creating" a low response rate, giving some graduates employment with the school, etc. If you do your homework, you should probably know by now to never rely on school-provided employment numbers and to look at things like NLJ250 placement instead. But for a school to outright say that its LSAT median is 168 when it's actually 163? Seems far too easy to get burned.


The ABA needs to set up some sort of incentive system for whistle blowers.


Except the problem is how would any whistle blowers find out? It is not as if an increase of 167 to 168 would raise any flags for any outsiders. The only ppl within who would generally know are so intimately tied to the school's well being that they would unlikely take any action even if they did find out.

Normally, the best way to deter this type of outright fraud is to impose severe penalties or sanctions on the schools. However, to do so would unfairly harm students who had been misled by the schools. Basically students are the ones who get screwed over.

CanadianWolf
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:22 pm

@shortporch: Does anyone outside of Texas really want to live & work in Houston ? Regardless, the real issue here is one concerning integrity--and you miss the mark on that one.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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DerrickRose
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby DerrickRose » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:23 pm

shortporch wrote:There were just 12 offers extended for the Class of 2014 through that program: --LinkRemoved--


Good work on the Google.

But that's like 15% of the class. The way the medians are statistically leveraged, couldn't that make all the difference?

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Helmholtz
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Helmholtz » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:24 pm

DerrickRose wrote:Then does Illinois report those scores or not? In hypothetical defense of our admissions department, why should they?


They absolutely should report them when publishing the LSAT and GPA numbers for the entire class of 2013/whatever. Just because it might not have made an impact on their acceptance doesn't mean you can hide them.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Voyager » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:25 pm

Depends how far off the LSAT scores were. How big is the average incoming class of 1Ls?

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shortporch
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby shortporch » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:26 pm

DerrickRose wrote:
shortporch wrote:There were just 12 offers extended for the Class of 2014 through that program: --LinkRemoved--


Good work on the Google.

But that's like 15% of the class. The way the medians are statistically leveraged, couldn't that make all the difference?


UIUC reported 228 admitted students last year. That would be 5%. If you have just 12 students that separate your median of a 168 from a 163, you're not a very good admissions officer.

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DerrickRose
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby DerrickRose » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:27 pm

shortporch wrote:
DerrickRose wrote:
shortporch wrote:There were just 12 offers extended for the Class of 2014 through that program: --LinkRemoved--


Good work on the Google.

But that's like 15% of the class. The way the medians are statistically leveraged, couldn't that make all the difference?


UIUC reported 228 admitted students last year. That would be 5%. If you have just 12 students that separate your median of a 168 from a 163, you're not a very good admissions officer.


Are you kidding? If you can make 12 students raise your LSAT median 5 points, you're the best admissions officer on earth. How do you think this game is played?

CanadianWolf
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:28 pm

@DerrickRose: Those students should have no impact whatsoever on reporting of LSAT scores if not taken or not reported to Illinois. Several otrher law schools have similiar options/programs, but if the LSAT is taken it must be reported.

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DerrickRose
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby DerrickRose » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:28 pm

shortporch wrote:
DerrickRose wrote:
shortporch wrote:There were just 12 offers extended for the Class of 2014 through that program: --LinkRemoved--


Good work on the Google.

But that's like 15% of the class. The way the medians are statistically leveraged, couldn't that make all the difference?


UIUC reported 228 admitted students last year. That would be 5%. If you have just 12 students that separate your median of a 168 from a 163, you're not a very good admissions officer.


I think this year's class is under 200, but I don't know that for a fact. The class of 2013 was the high water mark though.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby oldtimer » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:29 pm

DerrickRose wrote:
shortporch wrote:
DerrickRose wrote:
shortporch wrote:There were just 12 offers extended for the Class of 2014 through that program: --LinkRemoved--


Good work on the Google.

But that's like 15% of the class. The way the medians are statistically leveraged, couldn't that make all the difference?


UIUC reported 228 admitted students last year. That would be 5%. If you have just 12 students that separate your median of a 168 from a 163, you're not a very good admissions officer.


I think this year's class is under 200, but I don't know that for a fact. The class of 2013 was the high water mark though.


184 to be exact.

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DerrickRose
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby DerrickRose » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:30 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:@DerrickRose: Those students should have no impact whatsoever on reporting of LSAT scores if not taken or not reported to Illinois. Several otrher law schools have similiar options/programs, but if the LSAT is taken it must be reported.


Can it be taken and not reported to Illinois?

Listen, I don't want to defend anything that is against the rules here. If we flouted ABA standards for reporting scores we deserve whatever condemnation comes our way, I'm just trying to figure out how something like this could happen.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Voyager » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:30 pm

It seems to me that since GPA and LSAT are the two most critical numbers adcoms work with and report, they are most likely carefully reviewed many times for accuracy.

Or they should be.

I therefore find it impossible to believe that the errors were not intentional.

At the end of the day though,

the top 5%-10% will still get good jobs

the top half will still earn the same salary they could have earned by going into retail management

and the bottom half will be saddled with huge debt and no decent job prospects whatsoever

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Thirteen » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:30 pm

DerrickRose wrote:
shortporch wrote:
DerrickRose wrote:
shortporch wrote:There were just 12 offers extended for the Class of 2014 through that program: --LinkRemoved--


Good work on the Google.

But that's like 15% of the class. The way the medians are statistically leveraged, couldn't that make all the difference?


UIUC reported 228 admitted students last year. That would be 5%. If you have just 12 students that separate your median of a 168 from a 163, you're not a very good admissions officer.


I think this year's class is under 200, but I don't know that for a fact. The class of 2013 was the high water mark though.


They had more than the 247 in 2012? Damn.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Helmholtz » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:31 pm

DerrickRose wrote:From the completely unsubstantiated rumor bin that I thought of today and will now share:

Illinois has a program called iLeap that is an experimental thing that the ABA is allowing on a five-year test basis. Essentially it allows Illinois undergrads to apply and be admitted to Illinois law school without taking the LSAT. They use ACT scores and various other hoops that other applicants wouldn't have to go through. This started with the class of 2013, I'm not sure on the number of students admitted.

What if the discrepancy in the medians is the result of Illinois admitting reverse splitters through the iLeap program and then just not reporting their LSAT scores? Wouldn't that be a plausible explanation? The program would essentially allow you to pad the stats with a bunch of 3.8's and 3.9's, while having no effect on the LSAT number at all. Those students would likely take the LSAT eventually anyway to see if they could get into a better school, but if they bomb it, then they probably fall back on their Illinois acceptance, right? Then does Illinois report those scores or not? In hypothetical defense of our admissions department, why should they? Those students were already admitted.

Just a thought I had. I doubt we ever find out the full story here, I don't get the sense that Bruce Smith is the sort of guy that runs an organization that leaks.


Also, how does this explain the GPA being way off?

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby shortporch » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:31 pm

DerrickRose wrote:
shortporch wrote:
DerrickRose wrote:
shortporch wrote:There were just 12 offers extended for the Class of 2014 through that program: --LinkRemoved--


Good work on the Google.

But that's like 15% of the class. The way the medians are statistically leveraged, couldn't that make all the difference?


UIUC reported 228 admitted students last year. That would be 5%. If you have just 12 students that separate your median of a 168 from a 163, you're not a very good admissions officer.


Are you kidding? If you can make 12 students raise your LSAT median 5 points, you're the best admissions officer on earth. How do you think this game is played?


Engaging in this rabbit trail one last time, the "game" is not played with the expectation that all admitted, and deposited, students matriculate. To the very day of orientation there is movement on the waitlist, drop-outs, and the like. Admissions officers don't play with fire that way unless they're very bad at their job.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby splittinghairs » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:32 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
DerrickRose wrote:From the completely unsubstantiated rumor bin that I thought of today and will now share:

Illinois has a program called iLeap that is an experimental thing that the ABA is allowing on a five-year test basis. Essentially it allows Illinois undergrads to apply and be admitted to Illinois law school without taking the LSAT. They use ACT scores and various other hoops that other applicants wouldn't have to go through. This started with the class of 2013, I'm not sure on the number of students admitted.

What if the discrepancy in the medians is the result of Illinois admitting reverse splitters through the iLeap program and then just not reporting their LSAT scores? Wouldn't that be a plausible explanation? The program would essentially allow you to pad the stats with a bunch of 3.8's and 3.9's, while having no effect on the LSAT number at all. Those students would likely take the LSAT eventually anyway to see if they could get into a better school, but if they bomb it, then they probably fall back on their Illinois acceptance, right? Then does Illinois report those scores or not? In hypothetical defense of our admissions department, why should they? Those students were already admitted.

Just a thought I had. I doubt we ever find out the full story here, I don't get the sense that Bruce Smith is the sort of guy that runs an organization that leaks.


Also, how does this explain the GPA being way off?


Exactly
Last edited by splittinghairs on Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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DerrickRose
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby DerrickRose » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:32 pm

oldtimer wrote:184 to be exact.


In which 12 students is...less than 7%. Holy lord I'm bad at math. :oops:

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DerrickRose
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby DerrickRose » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:33 pm

splittinghairs wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
DerrickRose wrote:From the completely unsubstantiated rumor bin that I thought of today and will now share:

Illinois has a program called iLeap that is an experimental thing that the ABA is allowing on a five-year test basis. Essentially it allows Illinois undergrads to apply and be admitted to Illinois law school without taking the LSAT. They use ACT scores and various other hoops that other applicants wouldn't have to go through. This started with the class of 2013, I'm not sure on the number of students admitted.

What if the discrepancy in the medians is the result of Illinois admitting reverse splitters through the iLeap program and then just not reporting their LSAT scores? Wouldn't that be a plausible explanation? The program would essentially allow you to pad the stats with a bunch of 3.8's and 3.9's, while having no effect on the LSAT number at all. Those students would likely take the LSAT eventually anyway to see if they could get into a better school, but if they bomb it, then they probably fall back on their Illinois acceptance, right? Then does Illinois report those scores or not? In hypothetical defense of our admissions department, why should they? Those students were already admitted.

Just a thought I had. I doubt we ever find out the full story here, I don't get the sense that Bruce Smith is the sort of guy that runs an organization that leaks.


Exactly

Also, how does this explain the GPA being way off?


I can't. But there isn't nearly the GPA discrepancy that there is with the LSAT. 163 was a jaw-dropper.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:33 pm

@DerrickRose: I don't know the rules of the Illinois ILeap admissions program. Regardless, the dean would not have been suspended, or at least should not have been suspended, if those were the numbers causing the discrepency in LSAT reporting.




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