U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

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Indifferent
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Indifferent » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:00 pm

Voyager wrote:Here is another thought: if they are willing to do this with admissions stats (which are difficult to fudge without getting caught), what the hell do you guys think is going on with the employment numbers?

Those must be way way way off.

Yes, but you see, deceiving students with deceptive, self-reported employment information is normal. This is EGREGIOUS.

Voyager
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Voyager » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:03 pm

Indifferent wrote:
Voyager wrote:Here is another thought: if they are willing to do this with admissions stats (which are difficult to fudge without getting caught), what the hell do you guys think is going on with the employment numbers?

Those must be way way way off.

Yes, but you see, deceiving students with deceptive, self-reported employment information is normal. This is EGREGIOUS.


heh. fair, friend, fair.

On the other hand, it is the employment stats that really matter as the whole goal of the 3 year deal is to get a good job, not to be able to brag about the median LSAT score.

And they must be lying in truly new and special ways with respect to their employment stats.

How would McNulty handle the situation?

muaythaifighter
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby muaythaifighter » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:05 pm

Kilpatrick wrote:
muaythaifighter wrote:
Samara wrote:
muaythaifighter wrote:i can't believe ppl think pless is a honest man based on the fact that he posts here with advice. with the facts so far, it seems like he has lied which he has done in the past with letting applicants in in exchange for jobs from corrupted people.

That wasn't him. Get your facts straight.


he did not directly do it, but he knew it was going on yet allowed it to happen, get your facts straights


Of course he knew it was going on, he was being forced to do it. You are an idiot.


lol you are a tough guy with the name calling. so you are saying it is ok to screw with students' lives because even though he knew of it, he did not want to risk his job? it is understandable that everyone wants to keep their career, but it still makes him culpable because he was aware. i am sorry your moral compass is broken sir.

CanadianWolf
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:06 pm

The broader issue is one of integrity; if a school reports false class median numbers, then how can the employment figures be trusted ?

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dresden doll
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby dresden doll » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:07 pm

Voyager wrote:
Your position demonstrates a lack of experience in the world.


I've lived in different cultures, so I hardly think you're well positioned to lecture me about my unworldly ways. I think dogged and inflexible might be the words you're looking for.

I'm committed to intensely disliking everyone that stand for positions I find abominable and harmful, regardless of how nicely behaved they are. If 'nice' goes long ways with you, awesome - but don't act like it's unworldly to refuse to be swayed by someone's charisma.

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vanwinkle
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:07 pm

ITT: Trolls and 0Ls have an ethics debate.

I'm ignoring the reasonable stuff, because being reasonable, it's boring. Also because the trolls and 0Ls are ignoring it.

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bjsesq
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby bjsesq » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:09 pm

vanwinkle wrote:ITT: Trolls and 0Ls have an ethics debate.

I'm ignoring the reasonable stuff, because being reasonable, it's boring. Also because the trolls and 0Ls are ignoring it.


I am an unabashed troll, but have taken a reasonable stance here.

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JCougar
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby JCougar » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:10 pm

Samara wrote:I think the problem is that LSN in not representative of the entire applicant pool. People on LSN are more likely to be higher performing applicants and probably skew towards higher LSAT scores. They're on LSN because they are doing a lot of prep for their apps. LSN shows roughly the same number of applicants with a ~168/~3.3 as a ~164/3.3. Something tells me that UIUC's true applicant pool has many more of the ~163/~3.3 applicants.

If anything, we should perhaps question LSN as an accurate predictor. Certainly, it's less accurate for lower-ranked schools and state schools, no?


It doesn't have to be representative of the entire applicant pool to get a good idea of where a school's medians are generally. If the school rejects virtually everybody below a 3.75 and and a 167 (like Illinois does), then its class is likely not going to be composed of those kinds of people.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby dreakol » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:11 pm

JCougar wrote:
Samara wrote:I think the problem is that LSN in not representative of the entire applicant pool. People on LSN are more likely to be higher performing applicants and probably skew towards higher LSAT scores. They're on LSN because they are doing a lot of prep for their apps. LSN shows roughly the same number of applicants with a ~168/~3.3 as a ~164/3.3. Something tells me that UIUC's true applicant pool has many more of the ~163/~3.3 applicants.

If anything, we should perhaps question LSN as an accurate predictor. Certainly, it's less accurate for lower-ranked schools and state schools, no?


It doesn't have to be representative of the entire applicant pool to get a good idea of where a school's medians are generally. If the school rejects virtually everybody below a 3.75 and and a 167 (like Illinois does), then its class is likely not going to be composed of those kinds of people.



haha illinois wont be rejecting any 167s this year

Voyager
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Voyager » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:11 pm

dresden doll wrote:
Voyager wrote:
Your position demonstrates a lack of experience in the world.


I've lived in different cultures, so I hardly think you're well positioned to lecture me about my unworldly ways. I think dogged and inflexible might be the words you're looking for.

I'm committed to intensely disliking everyone that stand for positions I find abominable and harmful, regardless of how nicely behaved they are. If 'nice' goes long ways with you, awesome - but don't act like it's unworldly to refuse to be swayed by someone's charisma.


Look: I said Falwell came across as nice (just as this dean did) despite the fact that I disliked what he stood for and the things he did. My point was that the dean could be a nice guy on here and still lie about his school's stats.

I really feel like you are intentionally misunderstanding me.

You were originally saying that you would never be swayed by how nice someone was... which only matters in this discusioon if you think no one else would either. I think that is a rather unworldly view.

Never mind the fact that you seem to be defending the dean... which is somewhat at odds with your comment here.

I hope that clears things up for you.
Last edited by Voyager on Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MrAnon
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby MrAnon » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:13 pm

dresden doll wrote:
Voyager wrote:
Your position demonstrates a lack of experience in the world.


I've lived in different cultures, so I hardly think you're well positioned to lecture me about my unworldly ways. I think dogged and inflexible might be the words you're looking for.

I'm committed to intensely disliking everyone that stand for positions I find abominable and harmful, regardless of how nicely behaved they are. If 'nice' goes long ways with you, awesome - but don't act like it's unworldly to refuse to be swayed by someone's charisma.


Schools administrators especially in the admissions department are nothing more than salesmen. You bought the sales pitch. Unfortunately, you got fooled.

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bjsesq
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby bjsesq » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:13 pm

MrAnon wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
Voyager wrote:
Your position demonstrates a lack of experience in the world.


I've lived in different cultures, so I hardly think you're well positioned to lecture me about my unworldly ways. I think dogged and inflexible might be the words you're looking for.

I'm committed to intensely disliking everyone that stand for positions I find abominable and harmful, regardless of how nicely behaved they are. If 'nice' goes long ways with you, awesome - but don't act like it's unworldly to refuse to be swayed by someone's charisma.


Schools administrators especially in the admissions department are nothing more than salesmen. You bought the sales pitch. Unfortunately, you got fooled.


Dres doesn't go to UIUC, bromantula.

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dresden doll
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby dresden doll » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:14 pm

MrAnon wrote:
Schools administrators especially in the admissions department are nothing more than salesmen. You bought the sales pitch. Unfortunately, you got fooled.


I go to CCN, bro.

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Indifferent
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Indifferent » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:14 pm

Voyager wrote:
Indifferent wrote:
Voyager wrote:Here is another thought: if they are willing to do this with admissions stats (which are difficult to fudge without getting caught), what the hell do you guys think is going on with the employment numbers?

Those must be way way way off.

Yes, but you see, deceiving students with deceptive, self-reported employment information is normal. This is EGREGIOUS.


heh. fair, friend, fair.

On the other hand, it is the employment stats that really matter as the whole goal of the 3 year deal is to get a good job, not to be able to brag about the median LSAT score.

True, and I don't think most employers are basing their hiring on the median GPA/LSAT of any respective school.

I think the misrepresentation by the administration of Illinois was more egregious in that it is going to hurt the school's reputation with future applicants (and possibly donors/employers who help the school based on their falsely reported numbers).

While obviously students at the school are justifiably outraged, I doubt this scandal will have a significant impact on the employment prospects of current students.

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JCougar
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby JCougar » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:14 pm

MrAnon wrote:Any school with a median of 163 is going to reject people with LSATs of 167 to protect yield. Furthermore who even knows if 163 is accurate? I mean until you have at the files yourself, how do you really know? Its not like the school's record on this is that great. 163? Okay I'll take it! I wouldn't believe anything unless I saw it first.


There's a difference between yield protecting and rejecting everyone below a certain number. Illinois has basically rejected everyone below both of their phony medians -- making it look like they're a typical midwestern splitter school. But rejecting these people has hurt their real median.

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Kilpatrick
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Kilpatrick » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:14 pm

muaythaifighter wrote:
lol you are a tough guy with the name calling. so you are saying it is ok to screw with students' lives because even though he knew of it, he did not want to risk his job? it is understandable that everyone wants to keep their career, but it still makes him culpable because he was aware. i am sorry your moral compass is broken sir.


:roll: We already had this debate earlier in the thread. Yes, I think it's ok to admit some students with shitty numbers if your boss tells you you have to. I don't think that's the kind of thing I would take a moral stance on and lose my job over. If you think that makes my moral compass broken oh well.

The point is, bringing up that scandal as proof of Pless' lack of honesty is stupid. He was on the right side of that scandal. That doesn't have anything to do with what he is accused of doing here.

Voyager
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Voyager » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:16 pm

Indifferent wrote:
Voyager wrote:
Indifferent wrote:
Voyager wrote:Here is another thought: if they are willing to do this with admissions stats (which are difficult to fudge without getting caught), what the hell do you guys think is going on with the employment numbers?

Those must be way way way off.

Yes, but you see, deceiving students with deceptive, self-reported employment information is normal. This is EGREGIOUS.


heh. fair, friend, fair.

On the other hand, it is the employment stats that really matter as the whole goal of the 3 year deal is to get a good job, not to be able to brag about the median LSAT score.

True, and I don't think most employers are basing their hiring on the median GPA/LSAT of any respective school.

I think the misrepresentation by the administration of Illinois was more egregious in that it is going to hurt the school's reputation with future applicants (and possibly donors/employers who help the school based on their falsely reported numbers).

While obviously students at the school are justifiably outraged, I doubt this scandal will have a significant impact on the employment prospects of current students.


Agreed! What I am saying, however, is that the school is most likely lying about its employment numbers.... not that this scandal will have a huge impact on hiring. I am saying that the employment stats prospective students are using must be way way out of line... probably more so than at other schools.

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Sapientia
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Sapientia » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:17 pm

/
Last edited by Sapientia on Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Helmholtz
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Helmholtz » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:18 pm

Kilpatrick wrote:The point is, bringing up that scandal as proof of Pless' lack of honesty is stupid. He was on the right side of that scandal. That doesn't have anything to do with what he is accused of doing here.


tbf, it sounds like he was still on the wrong side, it was just that most can pretty much excuse him for it

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NancyBotwin
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby NancyBotwin » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:18 pm

Sapientia wrote:1L here.

Extremely pissed off. I'm not sure why anyone insists on defending the faculty at UIUC. It is obviously filled with a bunch of half-wits. I would not have come to this school had I known that this crap was going on.

You should probably leave then.

And we're talking about the administration staff. Not the faculty. If you think the faculty are halfwits, you really should leave.

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Indifferent
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Indifferent » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:19 pm

MrAnon wrote:Schools administrators especially in the admissions department are nothing more than salesmen. You bought the sales pitch. Unfortunately, you got fooled.

Lying to your customers is completely normal and fine, amirite?

Voyager
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Voyager » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:21 pm

NancyBotwin wrote:
Sapientia wrote:1L here.

Extremely pissed off. I'm not sure why anyone insists on defending the faculty at UIUC. It is obviously filled with a bunch of half-wits. I would not have come to this school had I known that this crap was going on.

You should probably leave then.

And we're talking about the administration staff. Not the faculty. If you think the faculty are halfwits, you really should leave.


No, the faculty are not halfwits. They are intelligent parasites, just as they are at all other schools. Their "scholarship" is worthless and they don't even prepare us to actually practice law. We have to learn that on our own upon graduation.

But that is a different topic for a different day.
Last edited by Voyager on Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby anthropologieaddict » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:21 pm

NancyBotwin wrote:
Sapientia wrote:1L here.

Extremely pissed off. I'm not sure why anyone insists on defending the faculty at UIUC. It is obviously filled with a bunch of half-wits. I would not have come to this school had I known that this crap was going on.

You should probably leave then.

And we're talking about the administration staff. Not the faculty. If you think the faculty are halfwits, you really should leave.


+1
I am an Illinois 1L also. If you're really that mad, it's week 5 so cut your losses and go. If you were so great that you could have had better opportunities elsewhere then by all means, reapply.
Last edited by anthropologieaddict on Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sapientia
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Sapientia » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:21 pm

.
Last edited by Sapientia on Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Kilpatrick
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Kilpatrick » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:21 pm

Sapientia wrote:1L here.

Extremely pissed off. I'm not sure why anyone insists on defending the faculty at UIUC. It is obviously filled with a bunch of half-wits. I would not have come to this school had I known that this crap was going on.


I think the only half-wit on the faculty is a certain former dean/current Crim professor. If you have her, then yeah you should definitely drop out now.




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