U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

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Danteshek
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Danteshek » Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:36 pm

Okay, you got me. Good job.

delusional
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby delusional » Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:38 pm

Opie wrote:
Kabuo wrote:
Opie wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:Team work among administration, admissions & career placement. That's what most students think that they are purchasing, in my opinion, although reality is often different. Linking pay increases to increased numbers might be too tempting to cheat especially when there is no oversight. Increased numbers do not benefit the consumers without increased job placement.


Increased rank leads to increased job placement. You think people hire people from Harvard because it's a good school? Doubtful. People probably learn more from many of the T14 than HLS.


I think people would continue to hire from Harvard even if US News changed its formula next year to the effect that the T14 remained the same but H fell to T2. I also think they'd still hire from H if Cooley finally passes it in the rankings this year.


They would, and I'm not saying it is a bad school. It's obviously a terrific school. It's also incredibly competitive to the point of being too stressful even for law school, and it's huge. I just mean to say that there are lots of schools that probably produce better lawyers, but it's really about the rankings.

What does that even mean?

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Ludo!
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Ludo! » Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:39 pm

Smith is awesome and is (other than a few professors) the absolute only person left in the entire law school administration that I have any respect for.

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SaintClarence27
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby SaintClarence27 » Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:53 pm

Ludovico Technique wrote:Smith is awesome and is (other than a few professors) the absolute only person left in the entire law school administration that I have any respect for.


Just curious why you think this (about Smith, I mean).

wildhaggis
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby wildhaggis » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:04 pm

SaintClarence27 wrote:
Ludovico Technique wrote:Smith is awesome and is (other than a few professors) the absolute only person left in the entire law school administration that I have any respect for.


Just curious why you think this (about Smith, I mean).

Yeah... I'd like a little insight into this as well.

CanadianWolf
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:04 pm

Interesting to examine the 2010-2011 Illinois admissions cycle graph on lawschoolnumbers.com.

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Ludo!
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Ludo! » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:05 pm

I think he has handled this fucked up situation as well as he possibly could. He has been an amazing dean since he's taken over and unfortunately is having to deal with shit that is going down because of how corrupt our last dean was.

It's clear from the report that he didn't know what Pless was doing. I think the worst you could say is that he should've tried to make changes to the way the admissions office was run. But he's not the one that implemented the system that allowed this to happen. The University wanted it that way. They wanted the admissions office insulated from the rest of the administration so that the Dean couldn't influence decisions. It was a terrible idea to have all the power put in the hands of one person, and I think they should've known something like this could happen. But that's not Smith's fault.

Why are you so eager for him to be fired?

CanadianWolf
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:08 pm

If he is that naive & gullible, then is he qualified to lead ? To be clear, I don't think that he is either naive or gullible.

wildhaggis
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby wildhaggis » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:12 pm

Ludovico Technique wrote:I think he has handled this fucked up situation as well as he possibly could. He has been an amazing dean since he's taken over and unfortunately is having to deal with shit that is going down because of how corrupt our last dean was.

It's clear from the report that he didn't know what Pless was doing. I think the worst you could say is that he should've tried to make changes to the way the admissions office was run. But he's not the one that implemented the system that allowed this to happen. The University wanted it that way. They wanted the admissions office insulated from the rest of the administration so that the Dean couldn't influence decisions. It was a terrible idea to have all the power put in the hands of one person, and I think they should've known something like this could happen. But that's not Smith's fault.

Why are you so eager for him to be fired?

Okay, that's great that you like him. But he's the "only person" left in the administration you have respect for? Why is he the "only one" if you're buying into the whole "only Pless knew about it" spiel?

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Ludo!
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Ludo! » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:13 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:If he is that naive & gullible, then is he qualified to lead ?


I don't see that as naive. When you are in charge you have to trust other people to do their jobs properly. How is he supposed to know that Pless is lying to his face and actually making up numbers?

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Ludo!
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Ludo! » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:13 pm

wildhaggis wrote:
Ludovico Technique wrote:I think he has handled this fucked up situation as well as he possibly could. He has been an amazing dean since he's taken over and unfortunately is having to deal with shit that is going down because of how corrupt our last dean was.

It's clear from the report that he didn't know what Pless was doing. I think the worst you could say is that he should've tried to make changes to the way the admissions office was run. But he's not the one that implemented the system that allowed this to happen. The University wanted it that way. They wanted the admissions office insulated from the rest of the administration so that the Dean couldn't influence decisions. It was a terrible idea to have all the power put in the hands of one person, and I think they should've known something like this could happen. But that's not Smith's fault.

Why are you so eager for him to be fired?

Okay, that's great that you like him. But he's the "only person" left in the administration you have respect for? Why is he the "only one" if you're buying into the whole "only Pless knew about it" spiel?


I hate all the other people for different reasons.

wildhaggis
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby wildhaggis » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:14 pm

Ludovico Technique wrote:
wildhaggis wrote:
Ludovico Technique wrote:I think he has handled this fucked up situation as well as he possibly could. He has been an amazing dean since he's taken over and unfortunately is having to deal with shit that is going down because of how corrupt our last dean was.

It's clear from the report that he didn't know what Pless was doing. I think the worst you could say is that he should've tried to make changes to the way the admissions office was run. But he's not the one that implemented the system that allowed this to happen. The University wanted it that way. They wanted the admissions office insulated from the rest of the administration so that the Dean couldn't influence decisions. It was a terrible idea to have all the power put in the hands of one person, and I think they should've known something like this could happen. But that's not Smith's fault.

Why are you so eager for him to be fired?

Okay, that's great that you like him. But he's the "only person" left in the administration you have respect for? Why is he the "only one" if you're buying into the whole "only Pless knew about it" spiel?


I hate all the other people for different reasons.

Thank goodness you have Dean Smith to be your shining beacon of integrity then.

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top30man
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby top30man » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:16 pm

Ludovico Technique wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:If he is that naive & gullible, then is he qualified to lead ?


I don't see that as naive. When you are in charge you have to trust other people to do their jobs properly. How is he supposed to know that Pless is lying to his face and actually making up numbers?

With apps on the rise the last few years, I don't think it was naive to assume that medians were going to go up. Hindsight is 20/20 of course.

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birdlaw117
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby birdlaw117 » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:17 pm

SaintClarence27 wrote:
Nightrunner wrote:
blurbz wrote:lol at Smith being out.

No. Why would he be? For him to have caught this, he would have had to go through EVERY SINGLE APPLICATION. Why would we even have someone else to do that job if Smith had to do it anyway? This sucks, but it's unrealistic to expect the dean to go over every little detail.

Well, he could do crazy things like, I dunno, having at least one other person double check the absurdly important numbers. Especially when the person with sole control over the numbers happens to have his pay scale attached to them.


He signed and certified the numbers were true when they weren't. He should be gone.

That would make it like SOX, which doesn't seem that silly to me. You don't have to go through every single application. You can use sampling techniques. Look at 20 of them. If one of those is doctored, you dig deeper. Not to mention simply having that system in place would deter the wrongdoing in the first place. But who cares about prevention when it comes to these mattes?

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SaintClarence27
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby SaintClarence27 » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:28 pm

Ludovico Technique wrote:I think he has handled this fucked up situation as well as he possibly could. He has been an amazing dean since he's taken over and unfortunately is having to deal with shit that is going down because of how corrupt our last dean was.

It's clear from the report that he didn't know what Pless was doing. I think the worst you could say is that he should've tried to make changes to the way the admissions office was run. But he's not the one that implemented the system that allowed this to happen. The University wanted it that way. They wanted the admissions office insulated from the rest of the administration so that the Dean couldn't influence decisions. It was a terrible idea to have all the power put in the hands of one person, and I think they should've known something like this could happen. But that's not Smith's fault.

Why are you so eager for him to be fired?


Because:
1) he certified numbers as true and correct when they weren't. If I did that in the course of my employment, anywhere, I would expect to be fired for it.
2) the damning condemnation of his management style. Not good qualities to have.

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Ludo!
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Ludo! » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:36 pm

SaintClarence27 wrote:
Ludovico Technique wrote:I think he has handled this fucked up situation as well as he possibly could. He has been an amazing dean since he's taken over and unfortunately is having to deal with shit that is going down because of how corrupt our last dean was.

It's clear from the report that he didn't know what Pless was doing. I think the worst you could say is that he should've tried to make changes to the way the admissions office was run. But he's not the one that implemented the system that allowed this to happen. The University wanted it that way. They wanted the admissions office insulated from the rest of the administration so that the Dean couldn't influence decisions. It was a terrible idea to have all the power put in the hands of one person, and I think they should've known something like this could happen. But that's not Smith's fault.

Why are you so eager for him to be fired?


Because:
1) he certified numbers as true and correct when they weren't. If I did that in the course of my employment, anywhere, I would expect to be fired for it.
2) the damning condemnation of his management style. Not good qualities to have.


1. He didn't know they weren't true.
2. I don't even know what this means.

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SaintClarence27
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby SaintClarence27 » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:41 pm

Ludovico Technique wrote:
SaintClarence27 wrote:
Ludovico Technique wrote:I think he has handled this fucked up situation as well as he possibly could. He has been an amazing dean since he's taken over and unfortunately is having to deal with shit that is going down because of how corrupt our last dean was.

It's clear from the report that he didn't know what Pless was doing. I think the worst you could say is that he should've tried to make changes to the way the admissions office was run. But he's not the one that implemented the system that allowed this to happen. The University wanted it that way. They wanted the admissions office insulated from the rest of the administration so that the Dean couldn't influence decisions. It was a terrible idea to have all the power put in the hands of one person, and I think they should've known something like this could happen. But that's not Smith's fault.

Why are you so eager for him to be fired?


Because:
1) he certified numbers as true and correct when they weren't. If I did that in the course of my employment, anywhere, I would expect to be fired for it.
2) the damning condemnation of his management style. Not good qualities to have.


1. He didn't know they weren't true.
2. I don't even know what this means.


1. Not enough. If he certifies something, he shouldn't be just taking someone at their word.

2. Did you read the report? There were some serious concerns about people being scared to come to Smith with bad news.

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Ludo!
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Ludo! » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:44 pm

SaintClarence27 wrote:
Ludovico Technique wrote:
SaintClarence27 wrote:
Ludovico Technique wrote:I think he has handled this fucked up situation as well as he possibly could. He has been an amazing dean since he's taken over and unfortunately is having to deal with shit that is going down because of how corrupt our last dean was.

It's clear from the report that he didn't know what Pless was doing. I think the worst you could say is that he should've tried to make changes to the way the admissions office was run. But he's not the one that implemented the system that allowed this to happen. The University wanted it that way. They wanted the admissions office insulated from the rest of the administration so that the Dean couldn't influence decisions. It was a terrible idea to have all the power put in the hands of one person, and I think they should've known something like this could happen. But that's not Smith's fault.

Why are you so eager for him to be fired?


Because:
1) he certified numbers as true and correct when they weren't. If I did that in the course of my employment, anywhere, I would expect to be fired for it.
2) the damning condemnation of his management style. Not good qualities to have.


1. He didn't know they weren't true.
2. I don't even know what this means.


1. Not enough. If he certifies something, he shouldn't be just taking someone at their word.

2. Did you read the report? There were some serious concerns about people being scared to come to Smith with bad news.


1. I guess we'll just have to differ on that. I say it's not his job to double check Pless' numbers.

2. Yes I read the report. That was just one thing noted in a footnote. Come on. Just because people think the guy is intimidating doesn't mean he's not good at his job.

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masochist
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby masochist » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:44 pm

f7 wrote:
Danteshek wrote:Do you think UI will go after Pless for his ill-gotten salary increases?

You should write a letter to the appropriate government agency regarding this matter, with your law review membership included in your signature. TYIA.


Well, the bonuses are illegal under 20 U.S.C. section 1094 paragraph 20 (the Higher Education Act).

"The institution will not provide any commission, bonus, or other incentive payment based directly or indirectly
on success in securing enrollments or financial aid to any persons or entities engaged in any student recruiting or admission
activities or in making decisions regarding the award of student financial assistance . . . ."

The DOJ just joined a huge whistleblower lawsuit filed against EDMC (a for-profit college mega corp that owns Western State School of Law) for a very similar infraction.

For obvious reasons, DOJ can't sue U of I in the same way, but they might be able to do something if they wanted to.

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SaintClarence27
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby SaintClarence27 » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:55 pm

masochist wrote:
f7 wrote:
Danteshek wrote:Do you think UI will go after Pless for his ill-gotten salary increases?

You should write a letter to the appropriate government agency regarding this matter, with your law review membership included in your signature. TYIA.


Well, the bonuses are illegal under 20 U.S.C. section 1094 paragraph 20 (the Higher Education Act).

"The institution will not provide any commission, bonus, or other incentive payment based directly or indirectly
on success in securing enrollments or financial aid to any persons or entities engaged in any student recruiting or admission
activities or in making decisions regarding the award of student financial assistance . . . ."

The DOJ just joined a huge whistleblower lawsuit filed against EDMC (a for-profit college mega corp that owns Western State School of Law) for a very similar infraction.

For obvious reasons, DOJ can't sue U of I in the same way, but they might be able to do something if they wanted to.

Well, they could certainly just couch it in terms of evaluation-based salary. He didn't actually just give him a bonus - he increased Pless' salary for the following year(s).

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Cornelius
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Cornelius » Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:00 pm

Ludovico Technique wrote:1. I guess we'll just have to differ on that. I say it's not his job to double check Pless' numbers.

2. Yes I read the report. That was just one thing noted in a footnote. Come on. Just because people think the guy is intimidating doesn't mean he's not good at his job.

It's your job to ensure the truth behind something you certify as true.

If your reports are too frightened to come to you with something that impacts the integrity of your institution and the way people view it, are you really an effective leader?
Last edited by Cornelius on Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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SaintClarence27
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby SaintClarence27 » Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:01 pm

Cornelius wrote:
Ludovico Technique wrote:1. I guess we'll just have to differ on that. I say it's not his job to double check Pless' numbers.

2. Yes I read the report. That was just one thing noted in a footnote. Come on. Just because people think the guy is intimidating doesn't mean he's not good at his job.

It's your job to ensure the truth behind something you certify as true.

wildhaggis
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby wildhaggis » Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:02 pm

Cornelius wrote:
Ludovico Technique wrote:1. I guess we'll just have to differ on that. I say it's not his job to double check Pless' numbers.

2. Yes I read the report. That was just one thing noted in a footnote. Come on. Just because people think the guy is intimidating doesn't mean he's not good at his job.

It's your job to ensure the truth behind something you certify as true.

TITCR.

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Ludo!
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Ludo! » Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:08 pm

Cornelius wrote:
Ludovico Technique wrote:1. I guess we'll just have to differ on that. I say it's not his job to double check Pless' numbers.

2. Yes I read the report. That was just one thing noted in a footnote. Come on. Just because people think the guy is intimidating doesn't mean he's not good at his job.

It's your job to ensure the truth behind something you certify as true.


But how could he possibly have done this? The system was purposely set up to keep him from having access to that information.

Cornelius wrote:If your reports are too frightened to come to you with something that impacts the integrity of your institution and the way people view it, are you really an effective leader?


Read the footnote. It says he is intense and some see him as intimidating. BUT "no person who
provided information in connection with this investigation attributed any of the conduct described in this Report to Smith’s management style."

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Thirteen
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Thirteen » Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:13 pm

SaintClarence27 wrote:
Cornelius wrote:
Ludovico Technique wrote:1. I guess we'll just have to differ on that. I say it's not his job to double check Pless' numbers.

2. Yes I read the report. That was just one thing noted in a footnote. Come on. Just because people think the guy is intimidating doesn't mean he's not good at his job.

It's your job to ensure the truth behind something you certify as true.


This. I'm sure Smith knows he might be gone, so he's probably putting feelers out to see if he can get a position somewhere else. I wouldn't be surprised if he stepped down, then resurfaced as a prof and assistant dean somewhere by next fall.




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