U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

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birdlaw117
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby birdlaw117 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:11 pm

chrisbru wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:
chrisbru wrote:Looking at LSN, it wows me that their LSAT median ended up where it did. GPA makes a little more sense. Maybe shows that LSN is sort of a self-select of higher than average applicants?

http://illinois.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/1011/

Acceptance =/= matriculation


I get that, it's just surprising that they didn't fare better than 163/3.7. They must have been really unlucky with acceptances.

Bet Pless regrets wait listing some of us 170+'s. I know I would have gone Illinois over Iowa for the same price.

Don't you mean free?

lsatcrazy
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby lsatcrazy » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:12 pm

romothesavior wrote:
omninode wrote:3. The school definitely owes something to its current students. I don't know how, but they have to try to make it up to them.

I feel the worst for the 2Ls and 3Ls, and the 1Ls with good creds. But it looks like for the majority of the 1L class, they really have nothing to complain about. It actually looks like they have benefited here, not from the lying, but from the bad admissions year that Illinois had. They really don't really have any "damages" to speak of, and if they do, they are far outweighed by their good fortune of being at UIUC and not some borderline T1/T2 school with half the job prospects.


Then again, you have the people who probably turned down ND/BC/W&M for UIUC...

dreakol
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby dreakol » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:12 pm

JoeFish wrote:As a current 1L at UIUC, the only way I could've possibly felt worse was if I hadn't been one of the "lucky 42" that didn't get their numbers changed at all.


not so subtle bragging

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Kabuo
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Kabuo » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:16 pm

dreakol wrote:
JoeFish wrote:As a current 1L at UIUC, the only way I could've possibly felt worse was if I hadn't been one of the "lucky 42" that didn't get their numbers changed at all.


not so subtle bragging


Fail to see how this is bragging at all.

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NancyBotwin
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby NancyBotwin » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:20 pm

Kabuo wrote:
dreakol wrote:
JoeFish wrote:As a current 1L at UIUC, the only way I could've possibly felt worse was if I hadn't been one of the "lucky 42" that didn't get their numbers changed at all.


not so subtle bragging


Fail to see how this is bragging at all.

He's assuming that the numbers that were changed were the low ones and not the high ones, and that therefore numbers that were not changed must have been high, and thus Joe is bragging about having high numbers. Problem is, some low numbers were not changed, while some middle range ones were.
Last edited by NancyBotwin on Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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chrisbru
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby chrisbru » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:21 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:
chrisbru wrote:I get that, it's just surprising that they didn't fare better than 163/3.7. They must have been really unlucky with acceptances.

Bet Pless regrets wait listing some of us 170+'s. I know I would have gone Illinois over Iowa for the same price.

Don't you mean free?


Yes, I do.

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romothesavior
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby romothesavior » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:25 pm

lsatcrazy wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
omninode wrote:3. The school definitely owes something to its current students. I don't know how, but they have to try to make it up to them.

I feel the worst for the 2Ls and 3Ls, and the 1Ls with good creds. But it looks like for the majority of the 1L class, they really have nothing to complain about. It actually looks like they have benefited here, not from the lying, but from the bad admissions year that Illinois had. They really don't really have any "damages" to speak of, and if they do, they are far outweighed by their good fortune of being at UIUC and not some borderline T1/T2 school with half the job prospects.


Then again, you have the people who probably turned down ND/BC/W&M for UIUC...

And I addressed them in the first sentence. The 1Ls who were competitive at other T20s and even T14s got screwed by the huge drop in numbers and the subsequent scandal, but the people with <165 can't really say that. That's not to say it doesn't suck to be at UIUC and dealing with this issue right now, but the folks around the median numbers are probably in better shape for jobs at UIUC compared to where they would (and should) have ended up with their numbers.

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Kabuo
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Kabuo » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:27 pm

NancyBotwin wrote:
Kabuo wrote:
dreakol wrote:
JoeFish wrote:As a current 1L at UIUC, the only way I could've possibly felt worse was if I hadn't been one of the "lucky 42" that didn't get their numbers changed at all.


not so subtle bragging


Fail to see how this is bragging at all.

He's assuming that the numbers that were changed were the low ones and not the high ones, and that therefore numbers that were not changed must have been high, and thus Joe is bragging about having high numbers. Problem is, some low numbers were not changed, while some middle range ones were.


I know what he's doing, and if you look at his LSN, joe indeed does have a high lsat, but I don't see how it's bragging. He didn't give his specific score, and what he did give seemed relevant to what was going on. Plus, dreakol is a troll.

*edit* Didn't mean for this to sound adversarial to you NancyBotwin. Just sticking up for the most interesting post in the last few pages.
Last edited by Kabuo on Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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SaintClarence27
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby SaintClarence27 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:29 pm

NancyBotwin wrote:
Kabuo wrote:
dreakol wrote:
JoeFish wrote:As a current 1L at UIUC, the only way I could've possibly felt worse was if I hadn't been one of the "lucky 42" that didn't get their numbers changed at all.


not so subtle bragging


Fail to see how this is bragging at all.

He's assuming that the numbers that were changed were the low ones and not the high ones, and that therefore numbers that were not changed must have been high, and thus Joe is bragging about having high numbers. Problem is, some low numbers were not changed, while some middle range ones were.


My GPA was changed.

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sunynp
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby sunynp » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:28 pm

Why did he wait list people with higher scores? He thought they wouldn't attend?
This scandal affects everyone at the school. It was a really shitty thing to do to everyone associated with the school.

CanadianWolf
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:32 pm

I agree that it was a horrible thing to do to the class of 2014. Does it seem as if you are attending a different law school since the report was issued ?

P.S. Reminds me of a high school senior who was excited after receiving a letter from Cornell inviting him to apply. Unfortunately, his joy was short-lived when he learned that Cornell College in Iowa was not the Ivy League school.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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minnbills
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby minnbills » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:34 pm

sunynp wrote:Why did he wait list people with higher scores? He thought they wouldn't attend?
This scandal affects everyone at the school. It was a really shitty thing to do to everyone associated with the school.


He probably miscalculated or didn't anticipate how many would matriculate, and scrambled to fix the stats.

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Unitas
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Unitas » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:56 pm

According to that report on average each students contributes around $3,333 dollars profit each year. 8 million profit over 4 years divided by 600 students (1L,2L,3Ls)(it said 190 students a year so I just used 600). Given scholarships some students contribute much more in profit probably closer to 10,000 in profit a year.

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NiccoloA
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby NiccoloA » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:26 pm

JoeFish wrote:
So: TL;DR: Current 1Ls feel exasperated, angry, and hopeless. In fact, every student and professor at the university feels that way. To relieve a little bit of that feeling, I've rambled, trying to maybe contribute something and definitely vent a little.



Folks like me that think that employment numbers won't be that hurt and that my borderline numbers (fake medians) will be good enough for $$$ this time around.


Plus in-staters that can't get into Northwestern or Chicago.

MrAnon
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby MrAnon » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:29 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:I agree that it was a horrible thing to do to the class of 2014. Does it seem as if you are attending a different law school since the report was issued ?

P.S. Reminds me of a high school senior who was excited after receiving a letter from Cornell inviting him to apply. Unfortunately, his joy was short-lived when he learned that Cornell College in Iowa was not the Ivy League school.


UIUC isn't even the 2nd best law school school in the state. So the initial joy was that the student got into the 3rd best school in the state. When all the dust settles, they'll still be at the 3rd best school in the state.

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NiccoloA
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby NiccoloA » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:32 pm

MrAnon wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:I agree that it was a horrible thing to do to the class of 2014. Does it seem as if you are attending a different law school since the report was issued ?

P.S. Reminds me of a high school senior who was excited after receiving a letter from Cornell inviting him to apply. Unfortunately, his joy was short-lived when he learned that Cornell College in Iowa was not the Ivy League school.


UIUC isn't even the 2nd best law school school in the state. So the initial joy was that the student got into the 3rd best school in the state. When all the dust settles, they'll still be at the 3rd best school in the state.



In a big state with a major city, it matters less that it is the "third best" school in the state.

It matters more that there are a lot of schools around the area, many of which with more prestige than Illinois.

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JCougar
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby JCougar » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:52 pm

I think what will really affect the school is in March, when they drop 15-20 points in US News, people simply don't matriculate. I think the majority of law school applicants don't really pay attention to what's going on beyond the US News rankings. TLS-level informed applicants are the minority.

There's plenty of other nearby options that will look more palatable. Indiana will probably only move up in the rankings while still offering obscene scholarships to people who used to be attracted to Illinois, and ND will appeal to many, Minnesota will be preparing for a competitive cycle, and WUSTL will be desperately trying to keep its new 168 median in an application cycle with less applicants (which means it will keep its policy of giving 50% schollies to everyone at or above median).

Furthermore, in-state residents in the surrounding states such as Iowa, Wisconsin, Indiana, Ohio, etc. will have more incentive to simply stay home and take in-state tuition when it becomes obvious that Illinois is no better a school US-News-wise than their in-state option.

It still might be attractive for in-state residents, and people who formerly had no chance but are now offered big scholarships in order to limit the median damage somewhat. I can't figure out long-term what the median will eventually end up being. If they actually tried for a 167 this cycle instead of a 168 (and didn't reject all those 167s and 166s), they probably could have easily gotten it. But I'm not sure they could do the same thing this year with the reputational hit and the US News dive. If I had to guess, they might end up getting a 164 or 165 median for next year's class...but that depends again on where they end up US News-wise. The LSAT score is only 12.5% of the ranking, but the peer assessment score is 25% and the lawyer/judge assessment score is 15%. This means over 50% of their score is at stake. I could see peer educational institutions being quickly forgiving for one screw up (the admission of political cronies scandal), but this second scandal is perhaps even more egregious. And the school basically lied to employers about the prestige of their class.

The one thing UIUC does have going for it is still the employment connections. If I were the Dean there, I'd be apologizing to employers left and right and trying to make things work, and sending out fliers to applicants about their placement stats -- which are leagues above schools like Indiana and Minnesota. Being in the same state as Chicago might make Chicago firms a bit quicker to forgive than if it were somewhere else.

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JoeFish
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby JoeFish » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:00 am

NancyBotwin wrote:He's assuming that the numbers that were changed were the low ones and not the high ones, and that therefore numbers that were not changed must have been high, and thus Joe is bragging about having high numbers. Problem is, some low numbers were not changed, while some middle range ones were.

This is right. My saying that my numbers were changed isn't suggesting anything about my score because, as Nancy points out, the numbers changed were all across the board.

I understand that this could be one's initial reaction, but I'm not assuming anything. They've actually publicly released the list of the LSAT/GPA combos of every single student over the last 10 years, noting any changes between their actual numbers and what was reported. This is appendix... I think 74 to the report. There aren't, of course, names on there, but unless you're right around the (real) medians, it's pretty unlikely that any one of the other students in your class has the exact same LSAT and GPA. So, a large percentage of us are able to very easily see whether or not our numbers were actually changed. Mine, in fact, did not.

But as I've mentioned earlier in a joking manner, it's not like that matters for anything.

Edited to clarify that I'm agreeing with, not criticizing, the quote.
Last edited by JoeFish on Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Kilpatrick
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Kilpatrick » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:01 am

MrAnon wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:I agree that it was a horrible thing to do to the class of 2014. Does it seem as if you are attending a different law school since the report was issued ?

P.S. Reminds me of a high school senior who was excited after receiving a letter from Cornell inviting him to apply. Unfortunately, his joy was short-lived when he learned that Cornell College in Iowa was not the Ivy League school.


UIUC isn't even the 2nd best law school school in the state. So the initial joy was that the student got into the 3rd best school in the state. When all the dust settles, they'll still be at the 3rd best school in the state.


This is idiotic. Cornell and UCLA are also 3rd best schools in their state.

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blurbz
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby blurbz » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:04 am

JoeFish wrote:
NancyBotwin wrote:He's assuming that the numbers that were changed were the low ones and not the high ones, and that therefore numbers that were not changed must have been high, and thus Joe is bragging about having high numbers. Problem is, some low numbers were not changed, while some middle range ones were.

I understand that this could be one's initial reaction, but I'm not assuming anything. They've actually publicly released the list of the LSAT/GPA combos of every single student over the last 10 years, noting any changes between their actual numbers and what was reported. This is appendix... I think 74 to the report. There aren't, of course, names on there, but unless you're right around the (real) medians, it's pretty unlikely that any one of the other students in your class has the exact same LSAT and GPA. So, a large percentage of us are able to very easily see whether or not our numbers were actually changed. Mine, in fact, did not.

But as I've mentioned earlier in a joking manner, it's not like that matters for anything.


She was explaining what the poster who commented about you was assuming, not talking about your state of mind. Nancy knows about the numbers--she announced earlier that her numbers weren't changed either!

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JoeFish
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby JoeFish » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:15 am

You're right, blurbz, I wasn't clear about the original quote (suggesting I was bragging, which I was disagreeing with) versus Nancy's quote which correctly describes the situation. Nancy's exactly right... some people under both medians didn't have their numbers change, and the mix of those whose numbers were in fact changed to push them over one or both medians seemed fairly random.

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blurbz
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby blurbz » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:18 am

JoeFish wrote:You're right, blurbz, I wasn't clear about the original quote (suggesting I was bragging, which I was disagreeing with) versus Nancy's quote which correctly describes the situation. Nancy's exactly right... some people under both medians didn't have their numbers change, and the mix of those whose numbers were in fact changed to push them over one or both medians seemed fairly random.



Ahhhh I gotcha. Haha--I thought you were responding TO Nancy, not agreeing with her regarding the other poster. My bad.

I thought the rep from the forensic analysis firm implied at the meeting yesterday that the numbers were changed so as to achieve maximum results: An increase in 25th, median AND 75th numbers. I might be misremembering, though.
Last edited by blurbz on Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

WSJ_Law
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby WSJ_Law » Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:56 am

LOL JUST LOL @ UIUC's credibility as an institution.

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romothesavior
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby romothesavior » Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:12 am

Kilpatrick wrote:
MrAnon wrote:P.S. Reminds me of a high school senior who was excited after receiving a letter from Cornell inviting him to apply. Unfortunately, his joy was short-lived when he learned that Cornell College in Iowa was not the Ivy League school.


UIUC isn't even the 2nd best law school school in the state. So the initial joy was that the student got into the 3rd best school in the state. When all the dust settles, they'll still be at the 3rd best school in the state.


This is idiotic. Cornell and UCLA are also 3rd best schools in their state.[/quote]
Yeah, and they are festering TTTs. What's your point?

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Thirteen
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Thirteen » Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:57 am

Kilpatrick wrote:
Thirteen wrote:Does anyone know if there's a working link for the appendices to the report? I want to check out the data for the class of 2012, but the link on the COL's website for appendices 1-75 isn't working.


It works for me. It's 3000 pages so it takes awhile to open.


Cool, thanks. I'll pull it up tomorrow at school.




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