U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

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MrAnon
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby MrAnon » Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:30 pm

JusticeHarlan wrote:
MrAnon wrote:
Kilpatrick wrote:
c3pO4 wrote:I think the level to which he was idolized on this site really says a lot about TLS.


What does it say about TLS? People liked him because he was here and would answer questions and give out info like when decisions were coming out. It sucks that he was so transparent about certain aspects of the admissions process while blatantly lying about the numbers - but that doesn't change the fact that he did a lot of good things on here and eased a lot of people's stress while they were applying.


Any idiot could have come on claiming to be whatever and rambled on and on about admissions and everyone would eat it up like candy. The alleged law firm recruiting officer thread is another example of this. Who is this person? What is he/she about? What are his/her credentials? Has he/she been as thoroughly vetted as Pless was (ha!)?

Who are you? What are you about? What are your credentials? Have you been vetted? Why should anyone listen to anything you say?


I'm a guy who has told you law school is a scam and that deans are greedy. if you had put your trust in me instead of Pless you'd be better off right now.

MrAnon
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby MrAnon » Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:32 pm

c3pO4 wrote:
MrAnon wrote:
Kilpatrick wrote:
c3pO4 wrote:I think the level to which he was idolized on this site really says a lot about TLS.


What does it say about TLS? People liked him because he was here and would answer questions and give out info like when decisions were coming out. It sucks that he was so transparent about certain aspects of the admissions process while blatantly lying about the numbers - but that doesn't change the fact that he did a lot of good things on here and eased a lot of people's stress while they were applying.


Any idiot could have come on claiming to be whatever and rambled on and on about admissions and everyone would eat it up like candy. The alleged law firm recruiting officer thread is another example of this. Who is this person? What is he/she about? What are his/her credentials? Has he/she been as thoroughly vetted as Pless was (ha!)?


Thanks Mr. Anon. Thought I was crazy. The point stands that this scandal demonstrates the need to take things from TLS with a grain of salt. ---and i agree that law firm recruiting thread is strange. It's not 100% apparent that the recruiter isn't biglaw in a major market right away, and most of the questions are from people looking for NYC biglaw...


Grain of salt is putting it lightly. The entire Pless thread should be taken down. The guy has been outed as a joke. Why would anything of what he said be credible at this stage?

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby JusticeHarlan » Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:41 pm

derp
Last edited by JusticeHarlan on Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dresden doll
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby dresden doll » Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:46 pm

I see we're well into the obligatory lol derp stage. Nice work, people.

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby JusticeHarlan » Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:48 pm

dresden doll wrote:I see we're well into the obligatory lol derp stage. Nice work, people.

You're right; I'll stop feeding the trolls.

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dresden doll
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby dresden doll » Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:50 pm

MrAnon wrote:
JusticeHarlan wrote:

Who are you? What are you about? What are your credentials? Have you been vetted? Why should anyone listen to anything you say?


I'm a guy who has told you law school is a scam and that deans are greedy. if you had put your trust in me instead of Pless you'd be better off right now.

You're the dude that told me that I attend UIUC, so I dunno about putting trust in you.

MrAnon
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby MrAnon » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:00 am

dresden doll wrote:
MrAnon wrote:
JusticeHarlan wrote:

Who are you? What are you about? What are your credentials? Have you been vetted? Why should anyone listen to anything you say?


I'm a guy who has told you law school is a scam and that deans are greedy. if you had put your trust in me instead of Pless you'd be better off right now.

You're the dude that told me that I attend UIUC, so I dunno about putting trust in you.


I feel for you if you took the bait and chose UIUC but don't feel too bad because these kinds of shenanigans are happening at plenty of other schools. UIUC is just one of the few that has been caught.

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Samara
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Samara » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:02 am

MrAnon wrote:I'm a guy who has told you law school is a scam and that deans are greedy. if you had put your trust in me instead of Pless you'd be better off right now.

You know, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

hint: you're the broken clock.

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Tanicius
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Tanicius » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:14 am

Samara wrote:
MrAnon wrote:I'm a guy who has told you law school is a scam and that deans are greedy. if you had put your trust in me instead of Pless you'd be better off right now.

You know, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

hint: you're the broken clock.



Dude, bullshit on the idea that this asshat is even as right as a broken clock. This idiot wasn't making ANY proclamations about Dean Pless lying to us. There is no "I told you so" here. Whether law school is generally a scam has absolutely nothing to do with this.

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dresden doll
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby dresden doll » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:07 am

MrAnon wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
MrAnon wrote:
JusticeHarlan wrote:

Who are you? What are you about? What are your credentials? Have you been vetted? Why should anyone listen to anything you say?


I'm a guy who has told you law school is a scam and that deans are greedy. if you had put your trust in me instead of Pless you'd be better off right now.

You're the dude that told me that I attend UIUC, so I dunno about putting trust in you.


I feel for you if you took the bait and chose UIUC but don't feel too bad because these kinds of shenanigans are happening at plenty of other schools. UIUC is just one of the few that has been caught.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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bjsesq
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby bjsesq » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:24 am

dresden doll wrote: :lol: :lol: :lol:


One of the largest whooshes in recent memory

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BackToTheOldHouse
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby BackToTheOldHouse » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:59 am

bjsesq wrote:
dresden doll wrote: :lol: :lol: :lol:


One of the largest whooshes in recent memory

Image

Voyager
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Voyager » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:00 pm

"The UI on Monday announced it concluded its investigation into inaccuracies found with the law school’s student profile data and issued a final report Monday. That report uncovered intentional inaccuracies in six of the 10 years reviewed."

So this hardly comes as a surprise to most of us. Of course it was intentional and of course it was going to be a long term issue.

I see many of the same people that jumped all over those of us who called it correctly months ago are still posting in this thread. Amusing.

The next obvious fact is that the dean of admissions of course did not act in a vacuum. The rest of the administration was certainly aware.
Another obvious fact is that the school's employment stats must be complete fabrications.
Last edited by Voyager on Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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ScrabbleChamp
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby ScrabbleChamp » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:06 pm

Voyager wrote:"The UI on Monday announced it concluded its investigation into inaccuracies found with the law school’s student profile data and issued a final report Monday. That report uncovered intentional inaccuracies in six of the 10 years reviewed."

So this hardly comes as a surprise to most of us. Of course it was intentional and of course it was going to be a long term issue.

The next obvious fact is that the dean of admissions of course did not act in a vacume. The rest of the administration was certainly aware.


Learn how to spell.

Also, how do you figure? The report explicitly states that Dean Pless was the sole administrator in charge of compiling and reporting the numbers without any oversight. So, it's completely plausible to believe that nobody else was involved. There is no information anywhere in that report to indicate that Pless had an accomplice. It was just a poor decision for Illinois to allow a single person to have full control over the compiling and reporting of the numbers AND to provide that person with merit raises based on how much the numbers increased each year.

Voyager
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Voyager » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:10 pm

ScrabbleChamp wrote:
Voyager wrote:"The UI on Monday announced it concluded its investigation into inaccuracies found with the law school’s student profile data and issued a final report Monday. That report uncovered intentional inaccuracies in six of the 10 years reviewed."

So this hardly comes as a surprise to most of us. Of course it was intentional and of course it was going to be a long term issue.

The next obvious fact is that the dean of admissions of course did not act in a vacume. The rest of the administration was certainly aware.


Learn how to spell.

Also, how do you figure? The report explicitly states that Dean Pless was the sole administrator in charge of compiling and reporting the numbers without any oversight. So, it's completely plausible to believe that nobody else was involved. There is no information anywhere in that report to indicate that Pless had an accomplice. It was just a poor decision for Illinois to allow a single person to have full control over the compiling and reporting of the numbers AND to provide that person with merit raises based on how much the numbers increased each year.


Highly unlikely. I feel like I am in a time warp. Apologists had similar explanations when I pointed out that this problem had to be more than one year and intentional.

6 years? No one knew for 6 years? Nonsense.

Also, the employemnt stats are utter garbage.

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Kilpatrick
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Kilpatrick » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:11 pm

Yeah I'm convinced from the report that Smith didn't know. Every time he asked Pless for info Pless sent him falsified numbers. I don't think it's reasonable to expect him to look through every application and personally double check Pless' work.

But it's insane to me that they let Pless have that much control over the numbers. There are like four other people in that office. What are they doing in there? Why weren't they also checking the numbers?

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Voyager » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:14 pm

Kilpatrick wrote:Yeah I'm convinced from the report that Smith didn't know. Every time he asked Pless for info Pless sent him falsified numbers. I don't think it's reasonable to expect him to look through every application and personally double check Pless' work.

But it's insane to me that they let Pless have that much control over the numbers. There are like four other people in that office. What are they doing in there? Why weren't they also checking the numbers?


Exactly. So my thought is that no one wanted to dig to check. If I were a student there, I would be extremely upset with the entire administration. They should all be apologizing, not pointing the finger at one guy.

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Samara
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Samara » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:15 pm

Voyager wrote:Highly unlikely. I feel like I am in a time warp. Apologists had similar explanations when I pointed out that this problem had to be more than one year and intentional.

6 years? No one new for 6 years? Nonsense.

Also, the employemnt stats are utter garbage.

Did you read the report at all? There were inaccuracies found in six cycles, but for three of the cycles, the inaccuracy was limited to one student and had no real impact on the medians or acceptance rate. Over the past three cycles, he modified GPAs, but no LSAT scores. It was only this past cycle (where he was caught) that he fudged both LSAT and GPA numbers and the first cycle he did for a huge portion of the students.

If you read the report, you will see how he maintained control of the statistics and that the people who worked with him only saw limited parts of the data, filtered through Pless's program. I think it's entirely plausible that only Pless was involved.

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Samara
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Samara » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:17 pm

Kilpatrick wrote:Yeah I'm convinced from the report that Smith didn't know. Every time he asked Pless for info Pless sent him falsified numbers. I don't think it's reasonable to expect him to look through every application and personally double check Pless' work.

But it's insane to me that they let Pless have that much control over the numbers. There are like four other people in that office. What are they doing in there? Why weren't they also checking the numbers?

There is a portion of the report that talks about one of the other staffers suspecting that something was up. She apparently checked using the data she had and it balanced out. Of course, that was data modified by Pless. She stated that she wanted to investigate further, but didn't have access to any other data or data from LSAC. She couldn't have pushed it without making an accusation and she didn't have any evidence upon which to base an accusation.

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Kilpatrick
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Kilpatrick » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:20 pm

Samara wrote:
Kilpatrick wrote:Yeah I'm convinced from the report that Smith didn't know. Every time he asked Pless for info Pless sent him falsified numbers. I don't think it's reasonable to expect him to look through every application and personally double check Pless' work.

But it's insane to me that they let Pless have that much control over the numbers. There are like four other people in that office. What are they doing in there? Why weren't they also checking the numbers?

There is a portion of the report that talks about one of the other staffers suspecting that something was up. She apparently checked using the data she had and it balanced out. Of course, that was data modified by Pless. She stated that she wanted to investigate further, but didn't have access to any other data or data from LSAC. She couldn't have pushed it without making an accusation and she didn't have any evidence upon which to base an accusation.


Yeah I'm not really blaming the individual people in the admissions office. I'm just shocked that this was the system that was in place. Giving one person total control over the data when there is that much incentive to lie, you're just asking for something like this to happen.

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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Voyager » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:21 pm

Samara wrote:
Voyager wrote:Highly unlikely. I feel like I am in a time warp. Apologists had similar explanations when I pointed out that this problem had to be more than one year and intentional.

6 years? No one new for 6 years? Nonsense.

Also, the employemnt stats are utter garbage.

Did you read the report at all? There were inaccuracies found in six cycles, but for three of the cycles, the inaccuracy was limited to one student and had no real impact on the medians or acceptance rate. Over the past three cycles, he modified GPAs, but no LSAT scores. It was only this past cycle (where he was caught) that he fudged both LSAT and GPA numbers and the first cycle he did for a huge portion of the students.

If you read the report, you will see how he maintained control of the statistics and that the people who worked with him only saw limited parts of the data, filtered through Pless's program. I think it's entirely plausible that only Pless was involved.


So... he experimented for a couple years, then escalated to wholesale GPA modifications, then, finally, LSAT and GPA?

I think it is entirely problematic that no one wanted to dive into how the school's stats were going up so much.

Also, I reiterate that if the ADMISSIONS data is fabricated, I assure you that the EMPLOYMENT stats must be utter garbage. As in no connection with reality on any level.

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Samara
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Samara » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:22 pm

Kilpatrick wrote:
Samara wrote:
Kilpatrick wrote:Yeah I'm convinced from the report that Smith didn't know. Every time he asked Pless for info Pless sent him falsified numbers. I don't think it's reasonable to expect him to look through every application and personally double check Pless' work.

But it's insane to me that they let Pless have that much control over the numbers. There are like four other people in that office. What are they doing in there? Why weren't they also checking the numbers?

There is a portion of the report that talks about one of the other staffers suspecting that something was up. She apparently checked using the data she had and it balanced out. Of course, that was data modified by Pless. She stated that she wanted to investigate further, but didn't have access to any other data or data from LSAC. She couldn't have pushed it without making an accusation and she didn't have any evidence upon which to base an accusation.


Yeah I'm not really blaming the individual people in the admissions office. I'm just shocked that this was the system that was in place. Giving one person total control over the data when there is that much incentive to lie, you're just asking for something like this to happen.

Oh yeah, I totally agree. It's insane how much they fawned over Pless and gave him free reign. It was the old dean though who gave him most of the power though, right? The same one who was busted for the other admissions scandal? If this is correct, they should probably get rid of anyone hired by the previous dean. She really has done a lot of damage to UIUC.

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Kilpatrick
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Kilpatrick » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:23 pm

Samara wrote:
Kilpatrick wrote:
Samara wrote:
Kilpatrick wrote:Yeah I'm convinced from the report that Smith didn't know. Every time he asked Pless for info Pless sent him falsified numbers. I don't think it's reasonable to expect him to look through every application and personally double check Pless' work.

But it's insane to me that they let Pless have that much control over the numbers. There are like four other people in that office. What are they doing in there? Why weren't they also checking the numbers?

There is a portion of the report that talks about one of the other staffers suspecting that something was up. She apparently checked using the data she had and it balanced out. Of course, that was data modified by Pless. She stated that she wanted to investigate further, but didn't have access to any other data or data from LSAC. She couldn't have pushed it without making an accusation and she didn't have any evidence upon which to base an accusation.


Yeah I'm not really blaming the individual people in the admissions office. I'm just shocked that this was the system that was in place. Giving one person total control over the data when there is that much incentive to lie, you're just asking for something like this to happen.

Oh yeah, I totally agree. It's insane how much they fawned over Pless and gave him free reign. It was the old dean though who gave him most of the power though, right? The same one who was busted for the other admissions scandal? If this is correct, they should probably get rid of anyone hired by the previous dean. She really has done a lot of damage to UIUC.


If they fired Hurd right now, it would restore all my faith in the administration.

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Samara
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby Samara » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:25 pm

Kilpatrick wrote:
Samara wrote:
Kilpatrick wrote:Yeah I'm not really blaming the individual people in the admissions office. I'm just shocked that this was the system that was in place. Giving one person total control over the data when there is that much incentive to lie, you're just asking for something like this to happen.

Oh yeah, I totally agree. It's insane how much they fawned over Pless and gave him free reign. It was the old dean though who gave him most of the power though, right? The same one who was busted for the other admissions scandal? If this is correct, they should probably get rid of anyone hired by the previous dean. She really has done a lot of damage to UIUC.


If they fired Hurd right now, it would restore all my faith in the administration.

Yes, that should happen. The report displays a lot of incompetence or willful ignorance on her part.

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TommyK
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Re: U. of Illinois Law suspends Dean of Admissions

Postby TommyK » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:25 pm

ScrabbleChamp wrote:Learn how to spell.

Also, how do you figure? The report explicitly states that Dean Pless was the sole administrator in charge of compiling and reporting the numbers without any oversight. So, it's completely plausible to believe that nobody else was involved. There is no information anywhere in that report to indicate that Pless had an accomplice. It was just a poor decision for Illinois to allow a single person to have full control over the compiling and reporting of the numbers AND to provide that person with merit raises based on how much the numbers increased each year.


Dude, seriously? the poster misspelled one word. Don't be a tool.

Also, lack of evidence of others' involvement is not evidence of their innocence. While it may be a stretch to say that others were certainly involved, it seems like it's pretty naive to assume it was just a "poor decision". My take is, at the minimum, others were willfully negligent - they didn't want to know.




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