The Law School Scam

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bahari2010
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The Law School Scam

Postby bahari2010 » Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:43 pm

I was wondering if any of you have come across the "law school is a scam" blogs, and if so what your thoughts were see e.g.

insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com
T14 Paradise.blogspot.com

(two very different blogs)

The basic argument seems to be:
(1) there are more law grads than there will ever be jobs
(2) all law schools manipulate their post-graduation employment stats
(3) Law school tuition is way too high, and thus
(4) Nobody should go to law school unless it's HYS/T6 or they don't have to pay for most of it.


Any thoughts?

shoeshine
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby shoeshine » Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:45 pm

We are all aware.

Use the search function.

kaiser
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby kaiser » Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:48 pm

Although they couch it in their bitterness and anger (which is understandable since they are the ones who got screwed by it), they make some valid points. But its not news to people on this site. Their message is more for those who have no clue what they are getting into when they say they are interested in going to law school, and think all lawyers are rich and argue in court everyday. Their message is a caution that is already embedded into the psyche of the average poster on here, who is FAR more informed than the average law school applicant. So it doesn't even warrant discussion here.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:02 pm

bahari2010 wrote:The basic argument seems to be:
(1) there are more law grads than there will ever be jobs
(2) all law schools manipulate their post-graduation employment stats
(3) Law school tuition is way too high, and thus
(4) Nobody should go to law school unless it's HYS/T6 or they don't have to pay for most of it.
Any thoughts?


Try these:
(4) JD's are luxury items, as no one ever NEEDS a law degree (replace 4)
(5) Litigation skills aren't useful for any other occupation
(6) JD's are only truly useful for practicing law, and they are merely resume lines of prestige when you apply for other jobs (NCAA, Compliance, Contracts, Negotiators, etc.)

That sums it up. But yes, the search function is useful.

bahari2010
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby bahari2010 » Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:25 pm

kaiser wrote:Although they couch it in their bitterness and anger (which is understandable since they are the ones who got screwed by it), they make some valid points. But its not news to people on this site. Their message is more for those who have no clue what they are getting into when they say they are interested in going to law school, and think all lawyers are rich and argue in court everyday. Their message is a caution that is already embedded into the psyche of the average poster on here, who is FAR more informed than the average law school applicant. So it doesn't even warrant discussion here.


That all being said: (1) all posters on TLS are not going to HYS etc. or (2) have large scholarships. So if the cautions are so embedded, why do people keep applying?

Full Disclosure: I graduated from GGU in 2010 with the vast majority of my tuition being covered. (and yes, I have a legal job for which a degree is required.)

schooner
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby schooner » Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:58 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:(6) JD's are only truly useful for practicing law, and they are merely resume lines of prestige when you apply for other jobs (NCAA, Compliance, Contracts, Negotiators, etc.)

That sums it up. But yes, the search function is useful.


Not true. A JD is a very useful and powerful degree to have in the nonprofit, policy, and political world. The bigger and thornier issue is whether it's worth the cost and debt.

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Fri Sep 02, 2011 8:00 pm

bahari2010 wrote:I was wondering if any of you have come across the "law school is a scam" blogs, and if so what your thoughts were see e.g.

insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com
T14 Paradise.blogspot.com

(two very different blogs)

The basic argument seems to be:
(1) there are more law grads than there will ever be jobs
(2) all law schools manipulate their post-graduation employment stats
(3) Law school tuition is way too high, and thus
(4) Nobody should go to law school unless it's HYS/T6 or they don't have to pay for most of it.


Any thoughts?

Yea, I think I have to take a shit.
ETA: IBTMTal

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby JusticeHarlan » Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:40 pm

Image

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JoeFish
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby JoeFish » Fri Sep 02, 2011 11:47 pm

bahari2010 wrote:That all being said: (1) all posters on TLS are not going to HYS etc. or (2) have large scholarships. So if the cautions are so embedded, why do people keep applying?

Full Disclosure: I graduated from GGU in 2010 with the vast majority of my tuition being covered. (and yes, I have a legal job for which a degree is required.)

I think you're just assuming something that's not true. Most people on TLS - the informed ones we're talking about - don't keep applying unless they're going to T14 (I'd still say a narrow majority on here would pay sticker for T14) or are getting big scholarships. The ones who do apply without either of those things are playing with fire, so to speak. It's in the non-TLS population that those cautions aren't embedded, which is really unfortunate for everyone. As a graduate of GGU (which I had to look up to figure out that it meant Golden Gate) who has a JD-requiring job, regardless of which of those two groups you're in, you're the exception rather than the rule.

schooner
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby schooner » Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:56 pm

bahari2010 wrote:Full Disclosure: I graduated from GGU in 2010 with the vast majority of my tuition being covered. (and yes, I have a legal job for which a degree is required.)


So what's your job? The fact that you describe it in the way you did, as opposed to saying you're a law firm attorney, makes a little suspicious. Just curious.

071816
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby 071816 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:59 pm

Is OP serious?

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ahduth
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby ahduth » Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:37 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:(4) JD's are luxury items, as no one ever NEEDS a law degree


Huh? I thought you needed an ABA-accredited degree to take the bar in almost all states (with the notable exception of California).

bahari2010
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby bahari2010 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:48 pm

schooner wrote:
bahari2010 wrote:Full Disclosure: I graduated from GGU in 2010 with the vast majority of my tuition being covered. (and yes, I have a legal job for which a degree is required.)


So what's your job? The fact that you describe it in the way you did, as opposed to saying you're a law firm attorney, makes a little suspicious. Just curious.


I am employed by a nonprofit where I represent people who have been denied benefits by the Social Security Administration. Also, on occasion I represent people in administrative disputes about medicaid eligibility. When not doing that I run our legal referral line, where questions I (or my collegues) can't answer go to other legal nonprofits in the community.

P.S. In law school I thought Professional Responsibility was the most pointless required course, but I encounter ethical issues several times a week if not every day.

bahari2010
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby bahari2010 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:51 pm

chimp wrote:Is OP serious?


Yes, I am. Do you really think the legal job market will change for the better three years from now? Personally, I think I was just in the right place at the right time.

CynicusRex
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby CynicusRex » Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:56 pm

schooner wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:(6) JD's are only truly useful for practicing law, and they are merely resume lines of prestige when you apply for other jobs (NCAA, Compliance, Contracts, Negotiators, etc.)

That sums it up. But yes, the search function is useful.


Not true. A JD is a very useful and powerful degree to have in the nonprofit, policy, and political world. The bigger and thornier issue is whether it's worth the cost and debt.


I really have to disagree with that. A JD really is only useful for going to law, and it actually removes you from contention in a lot of nonprofit and policy jobs.

CynicusRex
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Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:08 pm

Re: The Law School Scam

Postby CynicusRex » Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:00 pm

bahari2010 wrote:I was wondering if any of you have come across the "law school is a scam" blogs, and if so what your thoughts were see e.g.

insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com
T14 Paradise.blogspot.com

(two very different blogs)

The basic argument seems to be:
(1) there are more law grads than there will ever be jobs
(2) all law schools manipulate their post-graduation employment stats
(3) Law school tuition is way too high, and thus
(4) Nobody should go to law school unless it's HYS/T6 or they don't have to pay for most of it.


Any thoughts?


1-3 are definitely true, and I think there is going to be a reckoning soon. Not only is the ABA (finally) making some movement on those issues, but Senators Grassley and Boxer have taken a special interest in this issue and they are not backing down which is kind of gratifying.

4 is wrong, though. If you've (a) always REALLY wanted to be a lawyer; (b) worked with lawyers for a substantial period of time and were able to see how they worked, then there is nothing wrong with going to law school. Just understand that the chances are good that no matter how hard you work you will not be able to find a lawyer job, and try to minimize how much you borrow (definitely go to a cheaper state school if you can).

A better blog on this issue is by U. of Colorado law professor Paul Campos:

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/

He makes much better points than the blogs you quoted.

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calilaw
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby calilaw » Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:07 pm

I think the job prospects are too risky to justify law school unless you

1) Have the money to pay for school without incurring debt
2) Have a job lined up (through family or something along those lines - guaranteed employment) which requires a JD
3) Get accepted to to HYS, maybe T6 and plan on exchanging your life for studying to out-compete your [equally competent] peers
4) Get a 1/2 to full scholarship to a Tier 1 and are okay with staying in the area after graduation.

Two of those were options for me. But they are not options for everyone.

CynicusRex
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby CynicusRex » Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:08 pm

calilaw wrote:I think the job prospects are too risky to justify law school unless you

1) Have the money to pay for school without incurring debt
2) Have a job lined up (through family or something along those lines - guaranteed employment) which requires a JD
3) Get accepted to to HYS, maybe T6 and plan on exchanging your life for studying to out-compete your [equally competent] peers
4) Get a 1/2 to full scholarship to a Tier 1 and are okay with staying in the area after graduation.

Two of those were options for me. But they are not options for everyone.


Note that T6 isn't safe anymore; I have encountered several NYU law grads who can't find work.

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TatteredDignity
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby TatteredDignity » Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:14 pm

--ImageRemoved--

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minnbills
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby minnbills » Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:35 pm

0LNewbie wrote:--ImageRemoved--


I followed the link lol. Nice

071816
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby 071816 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:55 pm

bahari2010 wrote:
chimp wrote:Is OP serious?


Yes, I am. Do you really think the legal job market will change for the better three years from now? Personally, I think I was just in the right place at the right time.


This shit has been discussed ad naseum on these fucking boards. I asked if you were serious because you are bringing this up as if it's something new.

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kwais
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby kwais » Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:02 am

CynicusRex wrote:
calilaw wrote:I think the job prospects are too risky to justify law school unless you

1) Have the money to pay for school without incurring debt
2) Have a job lined up (through family or something along those lines - guaranteed employment) which requires a JD
3) Get accepted to to HYS, maybe T6 and plan on exchanging your life for studying to out-compete your [equally competent] peers
4) Get a 1/2 to full scholarship to a Tier 1 and are okay with staying in the area after graduation.

Two of those were options for me. But they are not options for everyone.


Note that T6 isn't safe anymore; I have encountered several NYU law grads who can't find work.


sweet scientific study you did there brah

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NYC Law
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby NYC Law » Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:03 am

Do you mean I won't be making the median salary listed on Brooklyn Law School's webpage????

Who to believe... Well respected intellectual law school administrators with years of experience who fully understand the legal ramifications of providing faulty statistics or some randos on the internet with a blog :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

CynicusRex
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby CynicusRex » Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:34 am

kwais wrote:sweet scientific study you did there brah


I have encountered several NYU students who can't find a job. Your response makes absolutely no sense. Did you even think before you wrote it?

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PDaddy
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Re: The Law School Scam

Postby PDaddy » Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:49 am

ahduth wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:(4) JD's are luxury items, as no one ever NEEDS a law degree


Huh? I thought you needed an ABA-accredited degree to take the bar in almost all states (with the notable exception of California).


Wrong.

You can practice in the following states without a law degree: California, New York, Washington, Virginia, Vermont, Maine, and Wyoming. The first three states on the list are possibly the only four that realistically could lure most TLSers.

FWIW, anyone who watches Suits should have known that NY was on the list.




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