Don’t Hire People Who Went To Grad School

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
User avatar
FeelTheHeat
Posts: 5203
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:32 am

Re: Don’t Hire People Who Went To Grad School

Postby FeelTheHeat » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:08 pm

romothesavior wrote:MT;DR


I've been searching profusely for the .gif but can't find it anywhere.

User avatar
IamJosh
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:35 am

Re: Don’t Hire People Who Went To Grad School

Postby IamJosh » Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:19 am

johnnyutah wrote:
IamJosh wrote:Plus, everyone knows sex is the only reason people do anything. It's science. Anyone who can have sex without money doesn't need it.

This is absolutely and completely false.


I was being really serious, too.

User avatar
westinghouse60
Posts: 392
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 2:27 am

Re: Don’t Hire People Who Went To Grad School

Postby westinghouse60 » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:14 am

Bildungsroman wrote:This person's various blogs are hilarious (although probably unintentionally). Read this entry (LinkRemoved); it's all about how she could barely handle a third-rate English graduate program, did poorly in her classes, plagiarized, took a job she was unqualified for that she got fired from, and just a whole lot of other weirdness.


This kind of thinking is probably why she did so poorly in an academic setting:

"I worked 15 hour days, and I felt like I was a student. I was learning all the time.

So it’s logical to me that this is what everyone should do. Find a foot in a door and then start learning everything you can to open that door wider."

Seriously, wtf? Most high school graduates could point out the flaw in that kind of thinking.

User avatar
tyro
Posts: 648
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:23 am

Re: Don’t Hire People Who Went To Grad School

Postby tyro » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:24 am

That article you posted. Mental, I admittedly enjoy a lot of your posts, but I could have written something deeper and more knowledgeable after drinking a fifth of bourbon. And dude, you posted that video (wasn't it you?) last summer. It is an entertaining video though nonetheless :lol:

I think you just need someone to help guide you man. Do you have some connections anywhere? I mean, so you went to a T2 and some things happened. Forget about it and move on!

User avatar
Naked Dude
Posts: 746
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:09 pm

Re: Don’t Hire People Who Went To Grad School

Postby Naked Dude » Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:34 am

Seriously, you have to make money or be successful at something BESIDES telling other people how to make money/be successful before you open your mouth. If you made all your money telling other people how to make money or otherwise became successful (and I define success very loosely to accomodate Trunk) telling other people how to be successful, who the hell are you? I mean hey, I don't begrudge my fellow man his successful scam, but you gotta shut your damn face.

MumofCad
Posts: 974
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:46 pm

Re: Don’t Hire People Who Went To Grad School

Postby MumofCad » Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:38 am

Isn't the truth though that most pursuing graduate level degrees in the humanities intend on academic careers? Reading the book yourself at night is hardly the same as having an active, engaged classroom discussion.

As for graduate degrees in general, the vast majority of today's students pursue them WHILE simultaneously working. In fact, I don't know anyone who went to business school that wasn't working throughout the time in some sort of small or medium size enterprise. I hardly think that their work experience was irrelevant solely because it was also acquired during the pursuit of higher education. These are simply not mutually exclusive categories as the author and many of the comments on here would have us believe - you don't get your GED and thus practical work experience OR get a graduate degree and thus have no real world experience. The assumption is preposterous and merely reflects that the author must be interviewing and hiring a rather sub-par group of individuals applying for rather unimpressive positions. Thus, it is a reflection more of her own failures, than of those that pursue graduate education.

During the time I have spent working on my PhD, I have spent 6 week rotations in war torn countries working on issues related to my research - from my experience, I am the norm, not the exception in the world of PhDs today. I would think in the humanities that the equivalent would be publishing a novel or what not. Is it necessary, no? Do most do it now? I would say, yes, both out of financial necessity and desire. It doesn't take much of an examination of law school entering class statistics on the K-JD downward trend in admissions to know this has been the case for most over the last decade. The trend is actually in direct contrast to what the author proposes.

As for law degrees, law schools too have gone increasingly through clinicals and summer employment toward a focus on gaining practical work experience during the pursuit of higher education. I know my friend who is a recent grad from Yale told me over lunch that he had this silly idea going to Yale that he would somehow be set apart from his peers because he had a "cool" political job in DC that he commuted down to from class on the weekends and breaks (we also met during a semester he took off to work on a political campaign). In reality, his impression was that everyone he met was still involved in working with non-profits, government agencies, consulting, etc - whatever they had come from - and he was in fact just typical instead of extraordinary. Now certainly Yale provides a unique law school experience, but it doesn't render the above trend toward clinicals and practical experience moot. I think the move is reflection of graduate education becoming more widely available, and the desire by most students to feel productive in a variety of ways while pursuing higher education.

I would hardly characterize lawyers as simply non-creative, over achievers. In fact, much of their unhappiness stems from the fact that they don't feel they get the opportunity in the early years to do just that...flex their creativity.

Anyhow, that is my 2 cents on this topic.

User avatar
dresden doll
Posts: 6802
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:11 am

Re: Don’t Hire People Who Went To Grad School

Postby dresden doll » Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:42 am

MTal wrote:
TurtlesAllTheWayDown wrote:Everyone knows the prized workers are the ones with their GEDs. They couldn't wait to join the workforce so they dropped out AND showed the initiative to go back and earn their equivalency degree.

Broad brushstrokes paint terribly unrealistic pictures.


I'd rather hire a GED graduate with 7 years of work experience and real life practical skills, then a JD who's spent 7 years and 150k and learned essentially nothing that's applicable to the position he's applying for.


And you don't at all have an ax to grind against anyone that pursues the JD route.

User avatar
Patriot1208
Posts: 7044
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 11:28 am

Re: Don’t Hire People Who Went To Grad School

Postby Patriot1208 » Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:15 pm

MumofCad wrote:As for graduate degrees in general, the vast majority of today's students pursue them WHILE simultaneously working.

Absolutely false. Unless you think summer employment or research for credit is akin to working a full time job.

MumofCad
Posts: 974
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:46 pm

Re: Don’t Hire People Who Went To Grad School

Postby MumofCad » Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:51 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
MumofCad wrote:As for graduate degrees in general, the vast majority of today's students pursue them WHILE simultaneously working.

Absolutely false. Unless you think summer employment or research for credit is akin to working a full time job.


Well I guess I just hang out with a bunch of ridiculous over-achievers then. I would say 80% of the people I know work while attending grad programs (besides law and medicine). It was true at the remote Scottish university I studied at and its certainly true of grad programs in Washington. DC. I don't know many people that can afford to do otherwise.

Grad programs in general are not as demanding in my experience from undergrad courses. Most of my friends had some sort of part-time employment, at least of the type a GED could land you, during their undergrad. You are only taking 9 credit hours - slightly more than half of what was required in undergrad. I feel like grad programs are designed to allow people to work while pursuing them. Not to mention the huge number of night courses and such offered at most schools. The only reason those would be offered, would be to accommodate people working during the day.

I think the ivory tower days are fading.
Last edited by MumofCad on Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Patriot1208
Posts: 7044
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 11:28 am

Re: Don’t Hire People Who Went To Grad School

Postby Patriot1208 » Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:55 pm

MumofCad wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:
MumofCad wrote:As for graduate degrees in general, the vast majority of today's students pursue them WHILE simultaneously working.

Absolutely false. Unless you think summer employment or research for credit is akin to working a full time job.


Well I guess I just hang out with a bunch of ridiculous over-achievers then. I would say 80% of the people I know work while attending grad programs (besides law and medicine). It was true at the remote Scottish university I studied at and its certainly true of grad programs in Washington. DC. I don't know many people that can afford to do otherwise.

You're probably in a program that is for/meant for working furthering an already established career. Most full time graduate programs have young people in them who either don't work or do like part time as an office assistant or something. And programs like an MBA or JD you can't really work unless you go part time.

MumofCad
Posts: 974
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:46 pm

Re: Don’t Hire People Who Went To Grad School

Postby MumofCad » Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:01 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
MumofCad wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:
MumofCad wrote:As for graduate degrees in general, the vast majority of today's students pursue them WHILE simultaneously working.

Absolutely false. Unless you think summer employment or research for credit is akin to working a full time job.


Well I guess I just hang out with a bunch of ridiculous over-achievers then. I would say 80% of the people I know work while attending grad programs (besides law and medicine). It was true at the remote Scottish university I studied at and its certainly true of grad programs in Washington. DC. I don't know many people that can afford to do otherwise.

You're probably in a program that is for/meant for working furthering an already established career. Most full time graduate programs have young people in them who either don't work or do like part time as an office assistant or something. And programs like an MBA or JD you can't really work unless you go part time.


Nope - got a masters during a well-respected, full-time day program at a top 10 UK uni. Worked as a consultant 30 hours a week on the side. As an undergrad, I took enough grad courses to earn a masters as well, but chose to pass on it to qualify for certain scholarships. I was in DC, but all my friends took some sort of gainful employment even then except the very wealthy or scholarship kids. Heck, I was on a full-ride athletic scholarship and I still needed to work as a waitress to earn travel & entertainment money. Most of the grad friends I met in those classes had full-time jobs at NPR, Voice of America, non-profits, etc. Yes, I largely took grad courses at night to leave my days open for internships but that is the trend these days.

In my doctoral program, out of the 10 students in my program, only 2 stayed behind after the mandatory residency to work as TAs or RAs (paid) while the rest of us are in Sierra Leone, Iraq, and Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, London, or Washington, DC working in some type of employment or conducting field work to pay for side research.

That's been my experience. Whether its a majority or not, doesn't discount the fact that these are not hard and fast categories or those who work or those who go to graduate school. Its silly to even suggest. I think the trend in offering flexibility in grad schools speaks for itself. Teachers don't get masters before teaching now - they teach and get the school district to help pay for continuing education. A good number in IR/poli sci try (or should) to get jobs and then have the government pay for continuing education, etc.

ETA: And yes, working as an office assistant is "real" work. Especially for someone with a GED. I think high flying law students sometimes forget what the real world is like - as though law students are the only ones struggling in this economy to find employment. On my father's side, I have 4 cousins with GEDs, 2 with no high school degrees, and 3 with high degrees - trust me, they would die for the opportunity to have a shot at "just an office assistant" job. When they go into apply for jobs, if they had resumes (which they don't), they would love to have such a professional accolade and real work experience to add to it. Or do we only consider "real" work to be that which requires....a grad degree to get a foot in the door? In which case, what the bloody heck is the argument here?!

User avatar
Naked Dude
Posts: 746
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:09 pm

Re: Don’t Hire People Who Went To Grad School

Postby Naked Dude » Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:26 pm

MumofCad wrote:Nope - got a masters during a well-respected, full-time day program at a top 10 UK uni. Worked as a consultant 30 hours a week on the side. As an undergrad, I took enough grad courses to earn a masters as well, but chose to pass on it to qualify for certain scholarships. I was in DC, but all my friends took some sort of gainful employment even then except the very wealthy or scholarship kids. Heck, I was on a full-ride athletic scholarship and I still needed to work as a waitress to earn travel & entertainment money. Most of the grad friends I met in those classes had full-time jobs at NPR, Voice of America, non-profits, etc. Yes, I largely took grad courses at night to leave my days open for internships but that is the trend these days.

In my doctoral program, out of the 10 students in my program, only 2 stayed behind after the mandatory residency to work as TAs or RAs (paid) while the rest of us are in Sierra Leone, Iraq, and Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, London, or Washington, DC working in some type of employment or conducting field work to pay for side research.

That's been my experience. Whether its a majority or not, doesn't discount the fact that these are not hard and fast categories or those who work or those who go to graduate school. Its silly to even suggest. I think the trend in offering flexibility in grad schools speaks for itself. Teachers don't get masters before teaching now - they teach and get the school district to help pay for continuing education. A good number in IR/poli sci try (or should) to get jobs and then have the government pay for continuing education, etc.

ETA: And yes, working as an office assistant is "real" work. Especially for someone with a GED. I think high flying law students sometimes forget what the real world is like - as though law students are the only ones struggling in this economy to find employment. On my father's side, I have 4 cousins with GEDs, 2 with no high school degrees, and 3 with high degrees - trust me, they would die for the opportunity to have a shot at "just an office assistant" job. When they go into apply for jobs, if they had resumes (which they don't), they would love to have such a professional accolade and real work experience to add to it. Or do we only consider "real" work to be that which requires....a grad degree? In which case, what the bloody heck is the argument here?!


Image

User avatar
Patriot1208
Posts: 7044
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 11:28 am

Re: Don’t Hire People Who Went To Grad School

Postby Patriot1208 » Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:33 pm

MumofCad wrote:ETA: And yes, working as an office assistant is "real" work. Especially for someone with a GED. I think high flying law students sometimes forget what the real world is like - as though law students are the only ones struggling in this economy to find employment. On my father's side, I have 4 cousins with GEDs, 2 with no high school degrees, and 3 with high degrees - trust me, they would die for the opportunity to have a shot at "just an office assistant" job. When they go into apply for jobs, if they had resumes (which they don't), they would love to have such a professional accolade and real work experience to add to it. Or do we only consider "real" work to be that which requires....a grad degree to get a foot in the door? In which case, what the bloody heck is the argument here?!

I wasn't saying that office assistant work isn't real work. The article and my point earlier in the thread is that it's hard to find any work that requires your advanced degree. And if you don't then it becomes harder to get jobs like office assistants. Applying for an office assistant job while your a student is fine. But if you apply for the same job for a full time position after you complete a masters you will have a much harder time getting that position. That is the problem with masters programs these days, there isn't enough work for those who get the education and then being over educated or having education unrelated to an area hurts you in the job search in other fields.

User avatar
kapital98
Posts: 1188
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:58 pm

Re: Don’t Hire People Who Went To Grad School

Postby kapital98 » Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:46 pm

Why is this in "Law School Admissions?" This is in the wrong forum.

Did the poster take Civil Procedure? :lol:

MumofCad
Posts: 974
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:46 pm

Re: Don’t Hire People Who Went To Grad School

Postby MumofCad » Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:47 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:I wasn't saying that office assistant work isn't real work. The article and my point earlier in the thread is that it's hard to find any work that requires your advanced degree. And if you don't then it becomes harder to get jobs like office assistants. Applying for an office assistant job while your a student is fine. But if you apply for the same job for a full time position after you complete a masters you will have a much harder time getting that position. That is the problem with masters programs these days, there isn't enough work for those who get the education and then being over educated or having education unrelated to an area hurts you in the job search in other fields.


Well I totally agree that can be the case. But I also worked as an exec assistant at a marketing firm and all the senior associates had wacky grad degrees - usually psychology, philosophy, and most English.

I agree that, its rough out there for everyone. And I think sometimes (cough), students mistakenly think that grad degrees or prestigious institutions are enough to get ahead. Often these lesser night programs are a better idea. I don't know people at any prestigious business schools, but I do know alot of people in MBA programs at the state school that are making 6 figures working for others and are taking targeted online and night courses to get accounting background and such to strike out on their own, or move up the ladder. Seems to me that in a horse race for a job, that's probably the way to go, over having something slightly more prestigious.

Law school and med school though are quite different due to the demands of the programs. They really are in their own class.
Last edited by MumofCad on Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MumofCad
Posts: 974
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:46 pm

Re: Don’t Hire People Who Went To Grad School

Postby MumofCad » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:02 pm

Naked Dude wrote:
Image


I'm saying quite the opposite, in fact, if you read the conversation. I'm saying that to me is the typical these days. To me, most of us are not in a financial position to not work while attending grad school. If someone chooses to ignore the fact and just take out grad loans at astronomical levels, well then the problem is not with grad school but with some of the personal choices being made. Most still need to take out loans, but grad school should not be seen as the author incorrectly suggests, as an opportunity to step away from "real life." I don't think that is a fair representation of the mentality of most grad students today, even those who do come out with debt. The average Joe just doesn't have that luxury.

And most American households, grad diploma or not, are drowning in debt. Statistically, grad degree holders are still out-earning their counterparts. They aren't the only ones who can't find the type of employment they need to pay the bills.




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests