Retake LSAT or not?

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TofferStrom
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Retake LSAT or not?

Postby TofferStrom » Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:09 am

I scored a 170 on the June LSAT. I have a 3.79 GPA. I'm considering retaking the LSAT in October to get in to NYU, Columbia or Penn. Should I? What are my chances of getting in if I don't retake? I've looked at lawschoolnumbers and lawschoolpredictor and I seem to be right around the lower limit for all those schools. Any insight? I scored a 180 on my last practice test, but I scored a 171 on the one before that and I am a terrible test taker.
Thanks.

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Samara
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Re: Retake LSAT or not?

Postby Samara » Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:56 am

This question belongs here:
viewforum.php?f=9

FWIW, your chances are decent to good that you'll get one of those, but it may come down to the quality of your softs. If you have the time to study for the next month, retake in October as there is very little downside.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Retake LSAT or not?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:05 am

TofferStrom wrote:I scored a 170 on the June LSAT. I have a 3.79 GPA. I'm considering retaking the LSAT in October to get in to NYU, Columbia or Penn. Should I? What are my chances of getting in if I don't retake? I've looked at lawschoolnumbers and lawschoolpredictor and I seem to be right around the lower limit for all those schools. Any insight? I scored a 180 on my last practice test, but I scored a 171 on the one before that and I am a terrible test taker.
Thanks.


How many PTs did you actually take? It sounds like you have more study material, and given your situation I'd say definitely retake. You should be in at Penn but will have a tough time at Columbia and NYU. Improving 3 points will get you above the LSAT medians at both NYU and Columbia and put you in line for huge scholarships at all of those schools (although you would still be below Penn's LSAT median.)

A couple good breaks on the retake, coupled with improved studying, put Harvard in play.

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Moomoo2u
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Re: Retake LSAT or not?

Postby Moomoo2u » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:29 am

If you think you can do better/have no hit your max retake.

You'll still be able to apply fairly early in late october if you take the oct LSAt so it's not like you'd be applying late. You might even have time to apply for ED if you feel very strongly about one school.

WSJ_Law
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Re: Retake LSAT or not?

Postby WSJ_Law » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:55 am

Retake wont help > unlikely to get more than 1 or 2 pts. higher and won't be worth the time/effort it will take. Plus you'll need to get your apps in as early as possible. Will probably get one of CCN and maybe H if you are lucky. Good luck. great #s

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bport hopeful
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Re: Retake LSAT or not?

Postby bport hopeful » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:15 am

The difference between a 170 and a 172 is actually pretty significant. If you can do better, do better.

WSJ_Law
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Re: Retake LSAT or not?

Postby WSJ_Law » Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:53 pm

Of course it is significant. But its unlikely to happen and probably won't be worth the additional time required. PTs of 180 dont mean anything. Test day is so variable. And add the pressure of knowing that anything below 171 will be useless to OP. Doesn't make sense. Enjoy MVP.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Retake LSAT or not?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:25 pm

WSJ_Law wrote:Of course it is significant. But its unlikely to happen and probably won't be worth the additional time required. PTs of 180 dont mean anything. Test day is so variable. And add the pressure of knowing that anything below 171 will be useless to OP. Doesn't make sense. Enjoy MVP.


I'd have to know how many more tests he did before giving an absolute no to a re-take. If he did every preptest then you may be right. If he only did ten then you are wrong. The idea that scoring a 180 on a practice test is meaningless is ridiculous.

OP, a re-take will most likely be the best option. The downside doesn't come close to matching the upside.

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Moomoo2u
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Re: Retake LSAT or not?

Postby Moomoo2u » Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:30 pm

Related anecdote:

my friend (now at CCN) was pting in the mid/high 170's all summer. In october he scored a 170. He studied a little more, retook in Februar and scored a 178.

If your situation is similar in that you are routinely pting at least 5 pts above what you scored on your previous LSAT, then retake it because you are performing under your ability. If it's 1-2 points below then it's a gamble because you are very likely to score the same or lower and at best are only 1-2 points above (which while significant, is mitigated by a previous LSAT of 170).

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Retake LSAT or not?

Postby JamMasterJ » Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:32 pm

If your average is at least a few points over 170, retake, if not, I'm not so sure. Either way, most schools don't really care about multiple scores - though NYU may be one of the exceptions IIRC

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bport hopeful
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Re: Retake LSAT or not?

Postby bport hopeful » Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:58 pm

Scoring a 180 on a PT is significant. It means you have the ability to score a 180 in timed conditions. If you can do that, and settle for a 170, your insulting yourself.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Retake LSAT or not?

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:16 pm

Your time could also be spent raising the 3.79 GPA to at least a 3.81. Will retaking the LSAT infringe upon your study time for undergraduate courses ?

Penn is likely with a 170/3.81, whereas Columbia chances don't increase substantially until a 174 is achieved.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Retake LSAT or not?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:33 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Penn is likely with a 170/3.81, whereas Columbia chances don't increase substantially until a 174 is achieved.


Not sure where you get that idea. OP is above Columbia's median GPA already. Getting to the LSAT median of 172 significantly improves the chances of acceptance.

http://columbia.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/1011/

If the OP is still in school though, getting the GPA above 3.8 is credited, especially for Penn.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Retake LSAT or not?

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:37 pm

lawschoolpredictor.com

P.S. According to the chart referenced in the above post, OP would need a 175 LSAT for Columbia to be near certain of acceptance. Below a 175, OP may be waitlisted.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Retake LSAT or not?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:13 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:lawschoolpredictor.com

P.S. According to the chart referenced in the above post, OP would need a 175 LSAT for Columbia to be near certain of acceptance. Below a 175, OP may be waitlisted.


We aren't looking for guarantees here. He could be waitlisted above 175 too. But his odds go from about 5% to 50% at Columbia by improving from 170 to 172. Right now, almost no chance. Two point improvement, very solid chance. That sounds substantial to me.

And as I said before, bringing Harvard into the discussion seems worth the effort. The guy did throw up a 180 on a practice test.

LSN>LSP

booasa
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Re: Retake LSAT or not?

Postby booasa » Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:24 pm

My buddy was PTing at 169-172. In June got a 167. In Oct got a 172. Had a 3.88 GPA and got into CCN with $$ at CLS and a $$$ schooly at Chicago plus a a stipend that covers more than 1/2 of his living expenses for all 3 years.He will tell everyone who will listen that retaking was absolutely the best thing he ever did. Retake retake. Most schools (except Harvard) will take the higher score anyway so there is no downside. Good luck

TheZoid
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Re: Retake LSAT or not?

Postby TheZoid » Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:45 pm

WSJ_Law wrote:Retake wont help > unlikely to get more than 1 or 2 pts. higher and won't be worth the time/effort it will take. Plus you'll need to get your apps in as early as possible. Will probably get one of CCN and maybe H if you are lucky. Good luck. great #s


Lol what? Dude got a 180 on a PT, totally worth trying to grab 2 or 3 more points, minimum. You can still submit your apps and then hopefully have the higher score help you get off a waitlist, if that's what happens. When you think of how drastically a couple points can change your cycle, it is definitely worth the "time/effort."

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Moomoo2u
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Re: Retake LSAT or not?

Postby Moomoo2u » Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:50 pm

"but I scored a 171 on the one before that and I am a terrible test taker. "

Have you scored high 170's before or was this a one-time thing? I'm pretty sure I scored a 178 once, but it was an outlier.

WSJ_Law
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Re: Retake LSAT or not?

Postby WSJ_Law » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:12 pm

TofferStrom wrote:but I scored a 171 on the one before that and I am a terrible test taker.


Test scores on test day are wildly unpredictable. To assume you will hit your highest outlier is irresponsible.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Retake LSAT or not?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:36 pm

WSJ_Law wrote:
TofferStrom wrote:but I scored a 171 on the one before that and I am a terrible test taker.


Test scores on test day are wildly unpredictable. To assume you will hit your highest outlier is irresponsible.


What the hell dude? Why the hate? Based on your quote I'm assuming that you think 171 was his outlier. It wasn't. 180 was. We are saying that if he comes up seven points short of his high he could have a dramatically better cycle. It's worth it.

WSJ_Law
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Re: Retake LSAT or not?

Postby WSJ_Law » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:45 pm

No I realize 180 was the outlier and the quote demonstrates the variability of his PT scores (which of course must be factored in alongside the variability of test day performance) and his admission that his record of prior test-day performance has been, in his opinion "terrible".

I am not hating. OP has fantastic numbers and IMO should not fret about a retake when he already has a score that gives him a competitive shot at several T6s. Think about the benefits of spending future LSAT prep + test time preparing a top-notch PS, perfect applications, and several genuine Why X essays to his targets. To get reliably believe he will score 171+ he will undoubtedly have to dip into some of this time. The numbers are as good as they are likely to get. If it were me, I'd relax and watch a great cycle unfold.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Retake LSAT or not?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:47 pm

WSJ_Law wrote:No I realize 180 was the outlier and the quote demonstrates the variability of his PT scores (which of course must be factored in alongside the variability of test day performance) and his admission that his record of prior test-day performance has been, in his opinion "terrible".

I am not hating. OP has fantastic numbers and IMO should not fret about a retake when he already has a score that gives him a competitive shot at several T6s. Think about the benefits of spending future LSAT prep + test time preparing a top-notch PS, perfect applications, and several genuine Why X essays to his targets. To get reliably believe he will score 171+ he will undoubtedly have to dip into some of this time. The numbers are as good as they are likely to get. If it were me, I'd relax and watch a great cycle unfold.


I'd spend the next month studying like crazy for the LSAT, and then spend October working on my apps. Seems easy enough.

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Opie
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Re: Retake LSAT or not?

Postby Opie » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:08 pm

Test day is definitely unpredictable, but not always in a bad way. I was chatting with a customer yesterday who happens to be a lawyer in town. He told me that he was consistently testing at 162 and his high was 165. Somehow on test day he got a 169, and it totally changed his cycle and his life. Instead of Drake with little money, he ended up at Iowa with decent money.

TofferStrom
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Re: Retake LSAT or not?

Postby TofferStrom » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:28 am

Did not realize this thread had been taken for such a wild ride. I read about four posts and decided to retake...

The feeling I have right now is that I scored at least a 175, which would make it possible for me to apply to YHS. I already graduated, so I don't have to worry about my GPA, and my softs aren't terribly great, so my PS etc. won't help me much. I consistently scored around and above 175 even before my first LSAT (except the odd dip, like that 170) and scored 175-180 pretty much without exception before my second one.

Anyway, I think the best advice for me, and for anyone else considering a retake is that if you think you can do better, retake. I was pretty sure I could do better, and I have a feeling a did. But I guess we'll see on Wednesday...

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BiglawOrBust
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Re: Retake LSAT or not?

Postby BiglawOrBust » Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:08 am

TofferStrom wrote:I scored a 180 on my last practice test


TofferStrom wrote:I am a terrible test taker.


:shock: :?: :!:




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