I-banking before Law School good WE?

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instra:mental
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I-banking before Law School good WE?

Postby instra:mental » Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:50 pm

How's it going?

I was wondering what you guys think of pursuing an I-banking analyst position for three years or so as WE for LS. It seems like this would give you a great perspective for M&A and other related forms of Biglaw. It may not be exactly law-related WE but it does seem like pretty relevant stuff if you are chasing that side of corporate law don't you think? Not to mention, you'd be able to pack away a tidy sum to cover a good chunk of LS :D

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts.

Real Madrid
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Re: I-banking before Law School good WE?

Postby Real Madrid » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:04 pm

If you get a job as an investment banker, why would you go to law school?

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instra:mental
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Re: I-banking before Law School good WE?

Postby instra:mental » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:11 pm

Real Madrid wrote:If you get a job as an investment banker, why would you go to law school?


I don't want to work 90-120 hour weeks, and be on call 24/7 for real. I'd want to see my family more than once a week basically haha. Also, I think I'd enjoy legal work more. Who knows though...

Real Madrid
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Re: I-banking before Law School good WE?

Postby Real Madrid » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:13 pm

instra:mental wrote:
Real Madrid wrote:If you get a job as an investment banker, why would you go to law school?


I don't want to work 90-120 hour weeks, and be on call 24/7 for real. I'd want to see my family more than once a week basically haha. Also, I think I'd enjoy legal work more. Who knows though...


Then why are you interested in lawl school?

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mths
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Re: I-banking before Law School good WE?

Postby mths » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:15 pm

Real Madrid wrote:
instra:mental wrote:
Real Madrid wrote:If you get a job as an investment banker, why would you go to law school?


I don't want to work 90-120 hour weeks, and be on call 24/7 for real. I'd want to see my family more than once a week basically haha. Also, I think I'd enjoy legal work more. Who knows though...


Then why are you interested in lawl school?

I've never agreed with two posts more in my time on tls

you, my friend, are winning right now

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20160810
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Re: I-banking before Law School good WE?

Postby 20160810 » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:17 pm

Law != biglaw, fwiw

My firm doesn't pay $160,000, but most people are home by 6:00-6:30.

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beach_terror
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Re: I-banking before Law School good WE?

Postby beach_terror » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:18 pm

Real Madrid wrote:
instra:mental wrote:
Real Madrid wrote:If you get a job as an investment banker, why would you go to law school?


I don't want to work 90-120 hour weeks, and be on call 24/7 for real. I'd want to see my family more than once a week basically haha. Also, I think I'd enjoy legal work more. Who knows though...


Then why are you interested in lawl school?

I-banking is like big law on lots and lots of cocaine (in addition to normal amounts of cocaine). And yeah, they're for real on call 24-7. Friend of mine basically can't have a social life because he gets called in at 11pm on a consistent basis.

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instra:mental
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Re: I-banking before Law School good WE?

Postby instra:mental » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:22 pm

Real Madrid wrote:
instra:mental wrote:
Real Madrid wrote:If you get a job as an investment banker, why would you go to law school?


I don't want to work 90-120 hour weeks, and be on call 24/7 for real. I'd want to see my family more than once a week basically haha. Also, I think I'd enjoy legal work more. Who knows though...


Then why are you interested in lawl school?


Corp law may work bad hours more consistently, but there is no way corp lawyers work as many hours as I-bankers in a year.

shoeshine
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Re: I-banking before Law School good WE?

Postby shoeshine » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:23 pm

instra:mental wrote:
Real Madrid wrote:If you get a job as an investment banker, why would you go to law school?


I don't want to work 90-120 hour weeks, and be on call 24/7 for real. I'd want to see my family more than once a week basically haha. Also, I think I'd enjoy legal work more. Who knows though...


I did something similar to what you are planning except I did not know I wanted to go to law school ahead of time.

Not all I-banking is 100 hr weeks (although most of M and A guys I knew did 80+). I-banking does count as pretty substantial w/e for law school apps.

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instra:mental
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Re: I-banking before Law School good WE?

Postby instra:mental » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:27 pm

shoeshine wrote:
instra:mental wrote:
Real Madrid wrote:If you get a job as an investment banker, why would you go to law school?


I don't want to work 90-120 hour weeks, and be on call 24/7 for real. I'd want to see my family more than once a week basically haha. Also, I think I'd enjoy legal work more. Who knows though...


I did something similar to what you are planning except I did not know I wanted to go to law school ahead of time.

Not all I-banking is 100 hr weeks (although most of M and A guys I knew did 80+). I-banking does count as pretty substantial w/e for law school apps.


Bingo! You answered my question.

What kind of banking did you do? How many years did you put in, two or three?

shoeshine
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Re: I-banking before Law School good WE?

Postby shoeshine » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:40 pm

instra:mental wrote:
shoeshine wrote:
instra:mental wrote:
Real Madrid wrote:If you get a job as an investment banker, why would you go to law school?


I don't want to work 90-120 hour weeks, and be on call 24/7 for real. I'd want to see my family more than once a week basically haha. Also, I think I'd enjoy legal work more. Who knows though...


I did something similar to what you are planning except I did not know I wanted to go to law school ahead of time.

Not all I-banking is 100 hr weeks (although most of M and A guys I knew did 80+). I-banking does count as pretty substantial w/e for law school apps.


Bingo! You answered my question.

What kind of banking did you do? How many years did you put in, two or three?


1. Public Finance
2. Slightly less than 2 years

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instra:mental
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Re: I-banking before Law School good WE?

Postby instra:mental » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:53 pm

Do you think banks would hesitate to hire you if they knew you were planning to go into law eventually instead of making banking a life-long career? I know all sorts of people have used I-banking as a stepping stone to VC and PE, but do you think banks would hire you if they knew you were planning on a different field entirely? Thanks so much for the input.
Last edited by instra:mental on Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Real Madrid
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Re: I-banking before Law School good WE?

Postby Real Madrid » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:56 pm

Okay, so I'll humor you and say that an investment banker works more than the average big law associate (which may very well be true - I'm not familiar with i-banking hours). But what kind of salary are you looking at for i-banking? I'm guessing it's a lot more than the 160k a first year associate makes at a big law firm - and big law is far from guaranteed no matter where you go to school.

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instra:mental
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Re: I-banking before Law School good WE?

Postby instra:mental » Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:02 am

Real Madrid wrote:Okay, so I'll humor you and say that an investment banker works more than the average big law associate (which may very well be true - I'm not familiar with i-banking hours). But what kind of salary are you looking at for i-banking? I'm guessing it's a lot more than the 160k a first year associate makes at a big law firm - and big law is far from guaranteed no matter where you go to school.


http://www.careers-in-finance.com/ibsal.htm

Those numbers are unreal, but so are the hours. As an analyst, when a deal is going down, it would not be uncommon for them to hit triple digit work weeks. Now if you were in transactional Big law, I'm sure as deals are going down you would see much heavier work weeks, but still, not as bad as those suicidal I-banking hours.

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RareBreed
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Re: I-banking before Law School good WE?

Postby RareBreed » Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:36 am

Did I miss something? ...Why would you start a career down one career path knowing you plan on switching in the future?

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ahduth
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Re: I-banking before Law School good WE?

Postby ahduth » Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:48 am

RareBreed wrote:Did I miss something? ...Why would you start a career down one career path knowing you plan on switching in the future?


+1

This board is called Top Law Schools, not Top I-Banking... schools.

icpb
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Re: I-banking before Law School good WE?

Postby icpb » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:25 am

Real Madrid wrote:Okay, so I'll humor you and say that an investment banker works more than the average big law associate (which may very well be true - I'm not familiar with i-banking hours). But what kind of salary are you looking at for i-banking? I'm guessing it's a lot more than the 160k a first year associate makes at a big law firm - and big law is far from guaranteed no matter where you go to school.


Working from 9-2 on M-F & 10-6 on S is typical for M&A. For BigLaw, even some positions that pays the $160000 base rarely make you work over 65 hours/week. For investment banking, being an Analyst sucks. It's really at the third year associate level when base+bonus really starts to shoot up into the sky.

You should never let an investment bank (not even GS, Morgan Stanley, or JPM) know that you are planning to attend law school. An investment bank may use that against you because you are a flight risk. They would think that you would ditch the two year analyst program after one year for law school because after one year, you will have substantial work experience for corporate law and most likely not want to deal with the crap of being an Analyst anymore. Only Blackstone PE, Bain Cap, and other PE firms might be confident enough to hire you even if they know that you are planning to attend law school.

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Patriot1208
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Re: I-banking before Law School good WE?

Postby Patriot1208 » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:06 am

Real Madrid wrote:Okay, so I'll humor you and say that an investment banker works more than the average big law associate (which may very well be true - I'm not familiar with i-banking hours). But what kind of salary are you looking at for i-banking? I'm guessing it's a lot more than the 160k a first year associate makes at a big law firm - and big law is far from guaranteed no matter where you go to school.

They do work more hours on average, easily as far as I can tell. And as an analyst you don't make much more, if you even make more than biglaw. But the upside is much greater especially farther along in your career.

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Re: I-banking before Law School good WE?

Postby icpb » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:24 am

There definitely is too much pessimism about BigLaw on this board.

1st year BigLaw associate = $160000 base + ~$20000 bonus; median of 60-80 hours/week; paper work
1st year IBD analyst = $65000 base + ~$25000 bonus (varies a lot); median of 90-100 hours/week; excel work
1st year IBD associate = $90000 base + ~50000 bonus (varies a lot); median of 80-90 hours/week; excel work

At lower levels, BigLaw offers much better salary and hours compared to investment banking. If you want to go to law school and then onto BigLaw, don't do IBD for more than one year.

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Re: I-banking before Law School good WE?

Postby Patriot1208 » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:43 am

icpb wrote:There definitely is too much pessimism about BigLaw on this board.

1st year BigLaw associate = $160000 base + ~$20000 bonus; median of 60-80 hours/week; paper work
1st year IBD analyst = $65000 base + ~$25000 bonus (varies a lot); median of 90-100 hours/week; excel work
1st year IBD associate = $90000 base + ~50000 bonus (varies a lot); median of 80-90 hours/week; excel work

At lower levels, BigLaw offers much better salary and hours compared to investment banking. If you want to go to law school and then onto BigLaw, don't do IBD for more than one year.

your bonuses seem low to me from what i've heard/seen for most analysts/associates, MM and BB.

icpb
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Re: I-banking before Law School good WE?

Postby icpb » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:54 am

Patriot1208 wrote:
icpb wrote:There definitely is too much pessimism about BigLaw on this board.

1st year BigLaw associate = $160000 base + ~$20000 bonus; median of 60-80 hours/week; paper work
1st year IBD analyst = $65000 base + ~$25000 bonus (varies a lot); median of 90-100 hours/week; excel work
1st year IBD associate = $90000 base + ~50000 bonus (varies a lot); median of 80-90 hours/week; excel work

At lower levels, BigLaw offers much better salary and hours compared to investment banking. If you want to go to law school and then onto BigLaw, don't do IBD for more than one year.

your bonuses seem low to me from what i've heard/seen for most analysts/associates, MM and BB.


I reported what I believe to be the median bonus for BB IBD excluding the one time sign-in bonus (heard from analyst/associates covering most BB from my UG). My sources may be a little dated though. Bonuses probably have increased over 2010. The problem with bonus is that it varies widely across firms and practice areas. If you are a top performer at GS TMT, you will have six figure bonuses as an associate. However, you may also get 0 bonus at certain groups at certain BBs. Bonuses for S&T may be higher.

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Re: I-banking before Law School good WE?

Postby imchuckbass58 » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:01 am

icpb wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:
icpb wrote:There definitely is too much pessimism about BigLaw on this board.

1st year BigLaw associate = $160000 base + ~$20000 bonus; median of 60-80 hours/week; paper work
1st year IBD analyst = $65000 base + ~$25000 bonus (varies a lot); median of 90-100 hours/week; excel work
1st year IBD associate = $90000 base + ~50000 bonus (varies a lot); median of 80-90 hours/week; excel work

At lower levels, BigLaw offers much better salary and hours compared to investment banking. If you want to go to law school and then onto BigLaw, don't do IBD for more than one year.

your bonuses seem low to me from what i've heard/seen for most analysts/associates, MM and BB.


I reported what I believe to be the median bonus for BB IBD excluding the one time sign-in bonus (heard from analyst/associates covering most BB from my UG). My sources may be a little dated though. Bonuses probably have increased over 2010. The problem with bonus is that it varies widely across firms and practice areas. If you are a top performer at GS TMT, you will have six figure bonuses as an associate. However, you may also get 0 bonus at certain groups at certain BBs. Bonuses for S&T may be higher.


Your sources are dated. First off, analyst base salaries are $70,000, and associates start at $110,000.

Second, bonuses this year were more than double what you're citing: http://dealbreaker.com/tag/bonus-watch/

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Patriot1208
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Re: I-banking before Law School good WE?

Postby Patriot1208 » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:04 am

imchuckbass58 wrote:
icpb wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:
icpb wrote:There definitely is too much pessimism about BigLaw on this board.

1st year BigLaw associate = $160000 base + ~$20000 bonus; median of 60-80 hours/week; paper work
1st year IBD analyst = $65000 base + ~$25000 bonus (varies a lot); median of 90-100 hours/week; excel work
1st year IBD associate = $90000 base + ~50000 bonus (varies a lot); median of 80-90 hours/week; excel work

At lower levels, BigLaw offers much better salary and hours compared to investment banking. If you want to go to law school and then onto BigLaw, don't do IBD for more than one year.

your bonuses seem low to me from what i've heard/seen for most analysts/associates, MM and BB.


I reported what I believe to be the median bonus for BB IBD excluding the one time sign-in bonus (heard from analyst/associates covering most BB from my UG). My sources may be a little dated though. Bonuses probably have increased over 2010. The problem with bonus is that it varies widely across firms and practice areas. If you are a top performer at GS TMT, you will have six figure bonuses as an associate. However, you may also get 0 bonus at certain groups at certain BBs. Bonuses for S&T may be higher.


Your sources are dated. First off, analyst base salaries are $70,000, and associates start at $110,000.

Second, bonuses this year were more than double what you're citing: http://dealbreaker.com/tag/bonus-watch/

tbf, dealbreaker seems to only be reporting "Top tier" which is only a small percentage at the top. If top tier first years at BB made 65 bonus i'd expect the median BB to be closer to 40.

terrybhs06
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Re: I-banking before Law School good WE?

Postby terrybhs06 » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:11 am

TLS makes me giggle when they attempt to talk about I-banking.

1) No way in this world is an avg. analyst (i.e. pre-MBA position) making close to 160k. They typically make in the realm of 80-120k. Excellent pay with only a Bachelors degree but not on the big-law level.

2) I-banking doesnt really expect too many lifelong analysts. Top-end i-banking pretty much expects that a ton of their analysts will pursue advanced degrees (usually MBA) at some point.

The only finance positions that would pay over 160k with just a bachelors are in super exclusive hedge funds and private equity. Good luck getting one of those.

TheZoid
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Re: I-banking before Law School good WE?

Postby TheZoid » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:11 am

Seems like a pretty good idea to me to do the I-banking gig for a couple years. Sock away as much money as you can to pay for law school up front so you can save on interest and not get destroyed by debt if you miss BigLaw. Plus, the experience certainly wouldn't hurt if you were looking to do corporate. Don't think it's a huge boost as far as law school admission is concerned, but I think it's a pretty smart move overall, and will probably be a boost for post law school employment.




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