ITT: New School Medians Revealed

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freestallion
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby freestallion » Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:48 am

I apologize if this has been posted already, but I saw it hasn't been added to the first page.

Penn Law's Class of 2014

Class Profile: http://www.law.upenn.edu/prospective/jd ... stics.html
Applicants 5,106
Enrolled 266

LSAT 75% = 171
25% = 166

GPA 75% = 3.93
25% = 3.58


Medians reported on their blog: http://www.law.upenn.edu/blogs/news/arc ... _2014.html
LSAT Median: 170
GPA Median: 3.86

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:50 am

ITT: A ferocious GTFO by KevinP. Well done, sir.

Also: Penn median GPA is Harvard-esque.

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Blessedassurance
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby Blessedassurance » Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:10 am

KevinP wrote: ...Yet they really love the GPA which is in a similar respect linked to wealth and class, which are largely determined by income.

My conclusion is based on "The relationship between family income and schooling attainment: Evidence from a liberal arts college with a full tuition subsidy program" by Todd R. Stinebrickner and Ralph Stinebrickner"


There's no irony because the gpa is not "in a similar respect linked to wealth and class". Desist from basing your conclusion on another man's opinion based on "evidence" from a liberal arts college with a tuition subsidy program.

I need your original thought not a regurgitation of Dr Stinebrickner's views. You can find a "scholarly" article for any position. It's like a Christian citing the Bible and a Muslim citing the Koran to back their respective claims. In fact, there are scholarly articles by Phd-holders defending the existence of Bigfoot.

freestallion
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby freestallion » Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:13 am

Blessedassurance wrote:
KevinP wrote: ...Yet they really love the GPA which is in a similar respect linked to wealth and class, which are largely determined by income.

My conclusion is based on "The relationship between family income and schooling attainment: Evidence from a liberal arts college with a full tuition subsidy program" by Todd R. Stinebrickner and Ralph Stinebrickner"


There's no irony because the gpa is not "in a similar respect linked to wealth and class". Desist from basing your conclusion on another man's opinion based on "evidence" from a liberal arts college with a tuition subsidy program.

I need your original thought not a regurgitation of Dr Stinebrickner's views. You can find a "scholarly" article for any position. It's like a Christian citing the Bible and a Muslim citing the Koran to back their respective claims. In fact, there are scholarly articles by Phd-holders defending the existence of Bigfoot.


Here's a reason: people from lower-income background frequently have other, family responsibilities and take on the debt themselves. this means often they will have to work throughout undergrad to pay for their college. This can reduce GPAs. Also, those who come from a lower-income area sometimes don't get the rigorous high school prep needed to jump into college courses and get straight As. Comparatively, the kids who went to excellent private/prep schools paid for by their parents, and who have college paid for by parents, have it easier in terms of getting high grades in college courses. I am sure we can think of more reasons, too.

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Kabuo
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby Kabuo » Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:20 am

freestallion wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:
KevinP wrote: ...Yet they really love the GPA which is in a similar respect linked to wealth and class, which are largely determined by income.

My conclusion is based on "The relationship between family income and schooling attainment: Evidence from a liberal arts college with a full tuition subsidy program" by Todd R. Stinebrickner and Ralph Stinebrickner"


There's no irony because the gpa is not "in a similar respect linked to wealth and class". Desist from basing your conclusion on another man's opinion based on "evidence" from a liberal arts college with a tuition subsidy program.

I need your original thought not a regurgitation of Dr Stinebrickner's views. You can find a "scholarly" article for any position. It's like a Christian citing the Bible and a Muslim citing the Koran to back their respective claims. In fact, there are scholarly articles by Phd-holders defending the existence of Bigfoot.


Here's a reason: people from lower-income background frequently have other, family responsibilities and take on the debt themselves. this means often they will have to work throughout undergrad to pay for their college. This can reduce GPAs. Also, those who come from a lower-income area sometimes don't get the rigorous high school prep needed to jump into college courses and get straight As. Comparatively, the kids who went to excellent private/prep schools paid for by their parents, and who have college paid for by parents, have it easier in terms of getting high grades in college courses. I am sure we can think of more reasons, too.


Seriously, you should be able to figure this out without any scholarly articles backing it up. To add to the list started above me, how about this: wealthier people can afford to go to better schools and major in the liberal arts because...they're wealthy. Both better schools and lib arts majors are notorious for grade inflation.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:26 am

Kabuo wrote:
Seriously, you should be able to figure this out without any scholarly articles backing it up. To add to the list started above me, how about this: wealthier people can afford to go to better schools and major in the liberal arts because...they're wealthy. Both better schools and lib arts majors are notorious for grade inflation.


Don't want to totally derail this thread, but if wealth and class don't impact GPA, then they don't impact LSAT. Anyone can study hard and get a good GPA, right? So why wouldn't this translate to the LSAT?

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Kabuo
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby Kabuo » Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:34 am

Tiago Splitter wrote:Don't want to totally derail this thread, but if wealth and class don't impact GPA, then they don't impact LSAT. Anyone can study hard and get a good GPA, right? So why wouldn't this translate to the LSAT?


I like this. It seems like TCR if this were an LR question.

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Blessedassurance
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby Blessedassurance » Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:42 am

freestallion wrote: Here's a reason: people from lower-income background frequently have other, family responsibilities and take on the debt themselves. this means often they will have to work throughout undergrad to pay for their college. This can reduce GPAs. Also, those who come from a lower-income area sometimes don't get the rigorous high school prep needed to jump into college courses and get straight As. Comparatively, the kids who went to excellent private/prep schools paid for by their parents, and who have college paid for by parents, have it easier in terms of getting high grades in college courses. I am sure we can think of more reasons, too.


You're discounting financial aid, Pell Grants, loans etc. You can actually go through community college without paying a dime out-of-pocket if you start school at 24. Furthermore, working while in undergrad doesn't have as much negative impact on gpa compared to the LSAT. To the contrary, it can serve as a great motivator. The LSAT is one exam under time-constraints testing a specific skill-set. The gpa is a reflection of a mass body of work.

One could also argue that having your college paid for is actually a disincentive to put in the necessary work to get A's.

avemundi
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby avemundi » Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:46 am

freestallion wrote:I apologize if this has been posted already, but I saw it hasn't been added to the first page.

Penn Law's Class of 2014

Class Profile: http://www.law.upenn.edu/prospective/jd ... stics.html
Applicants 5,106
Enrolled 266

LSAT 75% = 171
25% = 166

GPA 75% = 3.93
25% = 3.58


Medians reported on their blog: http://www.law.upenn.edu/blogs/news/arc ... _2014.html
LSAT Median: 170
GPA Median: 3.86


God, I feel so bad about having misinformed everyone here a few pages back by blabbering on about a 171 LSAT median. But to be fair, that's what I was told over the phoneeeee. I feel like Henny Penny.
*keeps on making excuses to justify embarrassing meltdown*

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minnbills
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby minnbills » Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:49 am

Blessedassurance wrote:The LSAT is one exam under time-constraints testing a specific skill-set. The gpa is a reflection of a mass body of work.

One could also argue that having your college paid for is actually a disincentive to put in the necessary work to get A's.


I don't buy this, most people who score highly on the LSAT put in quite a bit of work in my estimation. There are individuals who break the mold but if TLS is any indication, people who get good scores really do their homework. People who can afford to take a lot of time to study, will probably do better than their over-worked counterparts.

Also, not paying for your own school might be a disincentive but it probably isn't going to be determinative when you consider the wide range of possible motivators and situations that affect a typical person.

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Blessedassurance
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby Blessedassurance » Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:51 am

Kabuo wrote: Seriously, you should be able to figure this out without any scholarly articles backing it up. To add to the list started above me, how about this: wealthier people can afford to go to better schools and major in the liberal arts because...they're wealthy. Both better schools and lib arts majors are notorious for grade inflation.


What has majoring in liberal arts got to do with wealth? Why would the relative non-marketability of a liberal arts degree be a problem if the consumers were mainly the sons and daughters of the wealthy? There are crappy schools notorious for grade inflation including may community colleges.

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Kabuo
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby Kabuo » Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:00 am

Blessedassurance wrote:
Kabuo wrote: Seriously, you should be able to figure this out without any scholarly articles backing it up. To add to the list started above me, how about this: wealthier people can afford to go to better schools and major in the liberal arts because...they're wealthy. Both better schools and lib arts majors are notorious for grade inflation.


What has majoring in liberal arts got to do with wealth? Why would the relative non-marketability of a liberal arts degree be a problem if the consumers were mainly the sons and daughters of the wealthy? There are crappy schools notorious for grade inflation including may community colleges.


You're almost there. I'll just tell you since I know you don't work well under time constraints. It wouldn't be a problem, which is why they do it. And, liberal arts degrees are much more inflated than science degrees, which I don't think you will even try to dispute based on some exceptional anecdote you've heard.

Also, you are the most insufferable poster on these boards. I know the LSAT didn't work out the way you wanted it to, but drop the vendetta.

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Blessedassurance
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby Blessedassurance » Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:02 am

Nevermind.
Last edited by Blessedassurance on Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Robespierre
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby Robespierre » Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:05 am

Getting back to the medians, Cardozo just released theirs, possibly in response to the Fordham, Brooklyn and St. John's releases.

Class size did not change significantly.
LSAT median for all students slipped from 163 to 162. If we look at full-time only, it was unchanged at 164. The slippage came in the May Entry program; the median there went from 160 to 159.
GPA median for all students stayed at 3.60.

http://www.cardozo.yu.edu/MemberContent ... entid=2018

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Blessedassurance
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby Blessedassurance » Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:08 am

Moot.
Last edited by Blessedassurance on Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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beachbum
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby beachbum » Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:18 am

Blessedassurance wrote:
Kabuo wrote: You're almost there. I'll just tell you since I know you don't work well under time constraints. It wouldn't be a problem, which is why they do it. And, liberal arts degrees are much more inflated than science degrees, which I don't think you will even try to dispute based on some exceptional anecdote you've heard.

Also, you are the most insufferable poster on these boards. I know the LSAT didn't work out the way you wanted it to, but drop the vendetta.


The first part of your post makes no sense. Comprehension is not your strong suit. The non-marketability of the liberal arts degree is a problem, you ignoramus. Why else do you think it's hard to get a job as a lawyer from WUSTL?

I'm glad you deem me insufferable but I have no vendetta, really. I would if I had to waddle in the doldrums of mediocrity that is WUSTL :)


If you two are gonna get your panties in a bunch over some trivial argument, take it to PM. This is actually a useful thread.

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Kabuo
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby Kabuo » Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:21 am

Blessedassurance wrote:
Kabuo wrote: You're almost there. I'll just tell you since I know you don't work well under time constraints. It wouldn't be a problem, which is why they do it. And, liberal arts degrees are much more inflated than science degrees, which I don't think you will even try to dispute based on some exceptional anecdote you've heard.

Also, you are the most insufferable poster on these boards. I know the LSAT didn't work out the way you wanted it to, but drop the vendetta.


The first part of your post makes no sense. Comprehension is not your strong suit. The non-marketability of the liberal arts degree is a problem, you ignoramus. Why else do you think it's hard to get a job as a lawyer from WUSTL?

I'm glad you deem me insufferable but I have no vendetta, really. I would if I had to waddle in the doldrums of mediocrity that is WUSTL :)


I "waddle" here because of my GPA, and I chose it over a deferral at a T10 for my own reasons.

The marketability of a liberal arts degree is only relevant to anything I've said insofar as it goes to show that it is often a privilege of wealth. Maybe I gave you too much credit when I thought that's what you were trying to get at with your post. I'm done arguing with you in this thread. If you're not done, go ahead and fire me a pm about it. Maybe I'll respond and you can make fun of my GPA while I make fun of your LSAT, or maybe we can drop it.

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Robespierre
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby Robespierre » Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:22 am

Hopefully2012 wrote:Is it looking like the drop in applicants have affected T-25 to T-50 more than T-14?


Yup. And Tier 2 even more than the T50. And TTTs even more than that. As you go down the rankings you see more and more median drops and/or class cuts. In retrospect, not surprising.

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chrisbru
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby chrisbru » Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:56 am

Kabuo wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:[

The first part of your post makes no sense. Comprehension is not your strong suit. The non-marketability of the liberal arts degree is a problem, you ignoramus. Why else do you think it's hard to get a job as a lawyer from WUSTL?

I'm glad you deem me insufferable but I have no vendetta, really. I would if I had to waddle in the doldrums of mediocrity that is WUSTL :)


I "waddle" here because of my GPA, and I chose it over a deferral at a T10 for my own reasons.

The marketability of a liberal arts degree is only relevant to anything I've said insofar as it goes to show that it is often a privilege of wealth. Maybe I gave you too much credit when I thought that's what you were trying to get at with your post. I'm done arguing with you in this thread. If you're not done, go ahead and fire me a pm about it. Maybe I'll respond and you can make fun of my GPA while I make fun of your LSAT, or maybe we can drop it.


WTF is going on ITT? Can mods delete posts? This whole unintelligible banter really clutters this thread for whoever is trying to aggregate all the info to the first page.

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KevinP
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby KevinP » Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:07 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:ITT: A ferocious GTFO by KevinP. Well done, sir.
,
Also: Penn median GPA is Harvard-esque.

Looking at LSN (http://penn.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/1011/), it seems like Penn prefers GPAs higher than 3.8. They've rejected quite a few applicants who have awesome LSAT scores but were under the 3.8 GPA. *Sigh* seems unlikely I'll get into Penn with my "low" GPA.

Blessedassurance wrote:I need your original thought

Sorry everyone to derail this thread further and this will be my last reply on the wealth/income topic in this thread. Blessedassurance, you've been a really big help on on some other threads, so I really have no desire to go into a flame war.

The quality of life and education from K-12 are both directly tied to wealth and class. Such factors for those from lower socioeconomic backgrounds include unmotivated teachers, malnutrition, stress, illiteracy, crime-infested neighborhoods, and toxic environments. As much as you dislike that I use studies, multiple studies document the the effects of these factors which range from poorer health to inferior language skills. While the immediate consequences of low income do play a partial role, I would argue the aforementioned factors during a person's development, especially during childhood, play a much bigger role in determining the LSAT/GPA.

avemundi wrote:God, I feel so bad about having misinformed everyone here a few pages back by blabbering on about a 171 LSAT median. But to be fair, that's what I was told over the phoneeeee. I feel like Henny Penny.
*keeps on making excuses to justify embarrassing meltdown*

No worries m8. If, however, you said the medians dropped, we all celebrated, and then they released data showing they didn't drop then there'd be hell to pay :wink:.
Last edited by KevinP on Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby Bildungsroman » Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:11 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
Also: Penn median GPA is Harvard-esque.

Hopefully the USNews rankings this year will stop confusing people by listing Penn and Michigan as tied when Penn has better incoming stats and better placement stats.

Real Madrid
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby Real Madrid » Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:27 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
Also: Penn median GPA is Harvard-esque.

Hopefully the USNews rankings this year will stop confusing people by listing Penn and Michigan as tied when Penn has better incoming stats and better placement stats.



But Michigan gets bonus points for having Dean Z and looking like Hogwarts. So that's like an automatic 10 points in the rankings.

freestallion
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby freestallion » Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:29 pm

Real Madrid wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
Also: Penn median GPA is Harvard-esque.

Hopefully the USNews rankings this year will stop confusing people by listing Penn and Michigan as tied when Penn has better incoming stats and better placement stats.



But Michigan gets bonus points for having Dean Z and looking like Hogwarts. So that's like an automatic 10 points in the rankings.


But... Penn is warmer. And an IVY :P

Real Madrid
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby Real Madrid » Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:39 pm

But... Penn is warmer. And an IVY :P


But Michigan has legitimate college sports! :mrgreen: (+1)

And most laypeople don't know Penn is an IVY. :wink: (-1)

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KevinP
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby KevinP » Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:42 pm

freestallion wrote:But... Penn is warmer. And an IVY :P

Wait... I didn't realize state schools could be IVYs.




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