ITT: New School Medians Revealed

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avemundi
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby avemundi » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:26 pm

KevinP wrote:@UP: Berkeley has always been critical of the LSAT and has been pushing for research into developing an alternative method.

Directly from Berkeley's research:
"To base admission to law school so heavily on LSAT scores is to choose
academic skills (and only a subset of those) as the prime determinant of who gets into
law and law-related careers that demand many competencies in addition to test taking,
reading and reasoning skills. Moreover, it allocates the scarce resource of legal
education, along with its ensuing influence and privilege, on the narrow basis of skills
that are heavily linked to wealth and class."
Source: http://www.law.berkeley.edu/files/LSACR ... nal-12.pdf

Kind of ironic they essentially link wealth and class to the LSAT but yet place such heavy emphasis on the GPA which is probably just as strongly correlated with wealth and class.

Also, Penn released some data. They released the 25th/75th percentiles but it doesn't look like they posted medians.
http://www.law.upenn.edu/prospective/jd ... stics.html


Re: Penn - Those are still numbers for c/o 2013, no?

Edit -What the, I just pressed refresh and it changed to c/o 2014. Still no info on medians though.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby Bildungsroman » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:30 pm

Tanicius wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:
KevinP wrote:Berkeley just posted medians.
Berkeley: 167 (no change), 3.79 (no change)
25th percentile LSAT went up from 162 to 164 while 25th percentile GPA dropped from 3.64 to 3.62. Also, the entering class size dropped from 286 to 254 which is approximately an 11% decrease.

http://www.law.berkeley.edu/37.htm

TTT in decline confirmed.



How do you figure? Do you have reason to believe Berkeley is unable to accept more people with higher numbers - that it doesn't instead intentionally decide to factor things beyond numbers more heavily than peer schools and reject or waitlist more at its 75th LSAT than other schools?

Basically, why do you think a smaller class size than in years past and a .02 drop in the 25th GPA percentile is indicative of "decline"? The -.02 25th seems negligible to me, and as an entering student I'm hardly disappointed with a drop in the class size from 270 to 250.

They've been dropping in the rankings, tuition has gone through the roof, they barely maintained their numbers even when shrinking their class size, they have lousy biglaw placement, they rejected me, and their building is ugly. :P

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KevinP
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby KevinP » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:31 pm

avemundi wrote:Re: Penn - Those are still numbers for c/o 2013, no?

It's for the class of 2014: "Introducing the Class of 2014"

25th percentile GPA went up from 3.54 to 3.58.
75th percentile GPA went up from 3.90 to 3.93.
Interestingly enough, class enrollment actually went up from 250 to 266.

Edit: Just saw your edit haha.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:41 pm

KevinP wrote:
avemundi wrote:Re: Penn - Those are still numbers for c/o 2013, no?

It's for the class of 2014: "Introducing the Class of 2014"

25th percentile GPA went up from 3.54 to 3.58.
75th percentile GPA went up from 3.90 to 3.93.
Interestingly enough, class enrollment actually went up from 250 to 266.

Edit: Just saw your edit haha.


That 75th gpa number for Penn is hardcore.

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Tanicius
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby Tanicius » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:44 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:
KevinP wrote:Berkeley just posted medians.
Berkeley: 167 (no change), 3.79 (no change)
25th percentile LSAT went up from 162 to 164 while 25th percentile GPA dropped from 3.64 to 3.62. Also, the entering class size dropped from 286 to 254 which is approximately an 11% decrease.

http://www.law.berkeley.edu/37.htm

TTT in decline confirmed.



How do you figure? Do you have reason to believe Berkeley is unable to accept more people with higher numbers - that it doesn't instead intentionally decide to factor things beyond numbers more heavily than peer schools and reject or waitlist more at its 75th LSAT than other schools?

Basically, why do you think a smaller class size than in years past and a .02 drop in the 25th GPA percentile is indicative of "decline"? The -.02 25th seems negligible to me, and as an entering student I'm hardly disappointed with a drop in the class size from 270 to 250.

They've been dropping in the rankings, tuition has gone through the roof, they barely maintained their numbers even when shrinking their class size, they have lousy biglaw placement, they rejected me, and their building is ugly. :P



Whoa whoa whoa, none of this below the belt stuff. Their building just became fucking awesome with all the recently completed additions.

Speaking seriously though, I get the tuition argument. The state of the UC system itself is definitely in decline. At this point, and apparently it's been this way for some time, the law school actually more than pays for itself with its tuition and fees and in fact has been used by the UC system to prop up the rest of the university. There's been some talk of Boalt following the route of UCLA's business program privatizing itself in order to escape that financial black hole. Either way, this just doesn't have anything to do with the GPA/LSAT quotients. If they ever become concerned about raising their LSAT percentiles, they most likely would be able to do it.

The ranking thing seems pretty moot to me. They didn't suffer any loss in points last time around. It was merely because Michigan kicked enough ass to rise 2 points that they traded places with Berkeley. Half the people on this forum call UM a school in decline too, which is equally as silly.

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minnbills
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby minnbills » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:47 pm

I've never heard anyone say Michigan is in decline.

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Tanicius
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby Tanicius » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:54 pm

minnbills wrote:I've never heard anyone say Michigan is in decline.


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=160194&p=4592743&hilit=michigan+decline#p4592743

And that's from this summer. You should have seen the bullshit when Michigan dropped away from its tie with Penn into 8th or 9th place a few years back.

This kind of crap used to show up all the time: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=125881&p=3433506&hilit=+michigan+decline#p3433506
Last edited by Tanicius on Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

071816
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby 071816 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:54 pm

minnbills wrote:I've never heard anyone say Michigan is in decline.


Me either.

CanadianWolf
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:59 pm

Another longtime TLS poster at Northwestern frequently makes that claim. I disagree even though when I attended law school the big three were Harvard, Yale & Michigan.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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minnbills
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby minnbills » Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:00 pm

Tanicius wrote:
minnbills wrote:I've never heard anyone say Michigan is in decline.


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=160194&p=4592743&hilit=michigan+decline#p4592743

And that's from this summer. You should have seen the bullshit when Michigan dropped away from its tie with Penn into 8th or 9th place a few years back.

This kind of crap used to show up all the time: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=125881&p=3433506&hilit=+michigan+decline#p3433506


Zipping through that top thread it seemed to me most people were either defending michigan or bashing the state and its legal market rather than the school itself.

I mean, fundamentally we agree that people get alarmist when bad news comes out so I guess we don't really need to argue.

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birdlaw117
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby birdlaw117 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:26 pm

Tanicius wrote:
minnbills wrote:I've never heard anyone say Michigan is in decline.


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=160194&p=4592743&hilit=michigan+decline#p4592743

And that's from this summer. You should have seen the bullshit when Michigan dropped away from its tie with Penn into 8th or 9th place a few years back.

This kind of crap used to show up all the time: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=125881&p=3433506&hilit=+michigan+decline#p3433506

Using quakeroats to further this point is silly. He is a huge anti-Mich and pro-Duke troll.

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Tanicius
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby Tanicius » Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:31 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
minnbills wrote:I've never heard anyone say Michigan is in decline.


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=160194&p=4592743&hilit=michigan+decline#p4592743

And that's from this summer. You should have seen the bullshit when Michigan dropped away from its tie with Penn into 8th or 9th place a few years back.

This kind of crap used to show up all the time: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=125881&p=3433506&hilit=+michigan+decline#p3433506

Using quakeroats to further this point is silly. He is a huge anti-Mich and pro-Duke troll.


It's really not just QO. It was just the first bunch of results on the first place. Michigan + TTT in decline is a phrase thrown around a lot more than it deserves to be.

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Robespierre
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby Robespierre » Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:49 pm

avemundi wrote:
KevinP wrote:@UP: Berkeley has always been critical of the LSAT and has been pushing for research into developing an alternative method.

Directly from Berkeley's research:
"To base admission to law school so heavily on LSAT scores is to choose
academic skills (and only a subset of those) as the prime determinant of who gets into
law and law-related careers that demand many competencies in addition to test taking,
reading and reasoning skills. Moreover, it allocates the scarce resource of legal
education, along with its ensuing influence and privilege, on the narrow basis of skills
that are heavily linked to wealth and class."
Source: http://www.law.berkeley.edu/files/LSACR ... nal-12.pdf

Kind of ironic they essentially link wealth and class to the LSAT but yet place such heavy emphasis on the GPA which is probably just as strongly correlated with wealth and class.

Also, Penn released some data. They released the 25th/75th percentiles but it doesn't look like they posted medians.
http://www.law.upenn.edu/prospective/jd ... stics.html


Re: Penn - Those are still numbers for c/o 2013, no?

Edit -What the, I just pressed refresh and it changed to c/o 2014. Still no info on medians though.


That's weird, I'm still getting the 2013 numbers, even after refreshing.

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KibblesAndVick
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby KibblesAndVick » Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:58 pm

Columbia has class profile for 2014 up here - http://www.law.columbia.edu/jd_applican ... assprofile

Class of 2014:
Median LSAT -172 (No Change)
Average LSAT -171 (No Change)
25%/75% -170/175 (No Change)

Median GPA -3.72 (No Change)
Average GPA -3.70 (No Change)
25%/75% -3.60/3.82 (Slight change from 3.61-3.82)

Class size went from 404 to 406. Applicants went from 9,012 to 7,459.

I think I copied all of that right. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit: I had the class size and applicant numbers backwards
Last edited by KibblesAndVick on Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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bk1
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby bk1 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:11 pm

ITT: A lot of people who don't understand jokes.

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piccolittle
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby piccolittle » Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:17 pm

KibblesAndVick wrote:Columbia has class profile for 2014 up here - http://www.law.columbia.edu/jd_applican ... assprofile


I'm not sure that page is completely updated - they still reference the class of 2013 near the bottom of the page, and I haven't met the LLM in our class yet (if there is one). Those 'Advanced Degrees' numbers look awfully similar to the c/o 2013.

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KibblesAndVick
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby KibblesAndVick » Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:26 pm

piccolittle wrote:
KibblesAndVick wrote:Columbia has class profile for 2014 up here - http://www.law.columbia.edu/jd_applican ... assprofile


I'm not sure that page is completely updated - they still reference the class of 2013 near the bottom of the page, and I haven't met the LLM in our class yet (if there is one). Those 'Advanced Degrees' numbers look awfully similar to the c/o 2013.


The page from 2013 is still available from Google Cache - --LinkRemoved--

I think they updated all the numbers but not the Academic/Professional background section. The only meaningful difference seems to be they had 1,500 fewer applicants. Which makes the steady numbers pretty impressive.

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chrisbru
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby chrisbru » Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:32 pm

KibblesAndVick wrote:
piccolittle wrote:
KibblesAndVick wrote:Columbia has class profile for 2014 up here - http://www.law.columbia.edu/jd_applican ... assprofile


I'm not sure that page is completely updated - they still reference the class of 2013 near the bottom of the page, and I haven't met the LLM in our class yet (if there is one). Those 'Advanced Degrees' numbers look awfully similar to the c/o 2013.


The page from 2013 is still available from Google Cache - --LinkRemoved--

I think they updated all the numbers but not the Academic/Professional background section. The only meaningful difference seems to be they had 1,500 fewer applicants. Which makes the steady numbers pretty impressive.


Their yield rate must be up quite a bit... I'd assume.

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Robespierre
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby Robespierre » Thu Sep 08, 2011 4:28 pm

Brooklyn just put up its 2011 numbers. http://www.brooklaw.edu/Admissions/stat ... stics.aspx

They slashed the class by almost 100 students (from 486 to 390). Even with the shrinkage, they couldn't maintain the GPA median; it fell .07 from 3.45 to 3.38. They did maintain the 163 LSAT median; however, their 25th percentile number went from 162 to 160. Oof.

These figures are for FT and PT combined. The FT-only figures aren't that different, though.

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Blessedassurance
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby Blessedassurance » Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:38 pm

KevinP wrote:
Kind of ironic they essentially link wealth and class to the LSAT but yet place such heavy emphasis on the GPA which is probably just as strongly correlated with wealth and class.


Pray elaborate.

A better argument against gpa is the influence of major, inflation (or deflation) and undergraduate institution among other things. What's wealth and class got to do with it?

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dakure
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby dakure » Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:29 pm

UCLA has a higher LSAT median than Boalt? wow.

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ilovesf
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby ilovesf » Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:47 pm

Hastings just posted their new numbers on their website. I can't believe that the median LSAT dropped 2 points.. that's effing huge. It's really crazy that the median and 75 GPA managed to be stable and the LSAT dropped so much. The thing that actually surprised me most is that the percentage of students of color is 45%. That seems like a really high number.. do other schools have such a high percentage? Last year's numbers are in parentheses.

GPA
25% 3.38 (3.45)
Median 3.60 (3.60)
75% 3.73 (3.71)

LSAT
25% 157 (160)
Median 162 (164)
75% 165 (165)

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Robespierre
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby Robespierre » Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:52 pm

St. John's: --LinkRemoved--

LSAT median was down from 161 to 160.
GPA median was down from 3.50 to 3.49.
Class was slashed from 341 to 293, with cuts in both PT and FT.

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Hopefully2012
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby Hopefully2012 » Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:58 pm

Is it looking like the drop in applicants have affected T-25 to T-50 more than T-14?

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KevinP
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Re: ITT: New School Medians Revealed

Postby KevinP » Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:30 pm

Blessedassurance wrote:Pray elaborate.

A better argument against gpa is the influence of major, inflation (or deflation) and undergraduate institution among other things. What's wealth and class got to do with it?

I agree that those factors would probably make a better argument but that wasn't really the point of my post. I was merely pointing out the irony in Berkeley's actions; I'm calling Berkeley's actions ironic since they explicitly criticize the LSAT by stating that the LSAT tests narrow skills which are "heavily linked to wealth and class." Yet they really love the GPA which is in a similar respect linked to wealth and class, which are largely determined by income.

My conclusion is based on "The relationship between family income and schooling attainment: Evidence from a liberal arts college with a full tuition subsidy program" by Todd R. Stinebrickner and Ralph Stinebrickner. The following 2 paragraphs are direct quotes from their research.

"The coefficient on family income, .040, implies that the GPA of an individual with a family income of $40,000 is on average .16 higher than an individual with $0 of family income holding other observable characteristics constant. Further, the coefficient is statistically significant with a t-statistic of 10.0. Although the regression results are not shown, the effect of family income on term grade point average is also significant (at a .10 level of significance or lower) for four of the subsequent five semesters with point estimates of .023, .036, .041, .014, and .028.32 The pooled regression involving all grades in all years produces a point estimate of .033 and an associated t statistic of 4.013."

"Students from low income families are found to receive significantly lower college grades (even after controlling for college entrance exam scores and other observable characteristics) and these differences explain the majority of the difference in the attrition rates between income groups."




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