My GPA is worse than I thought

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KMaine
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Re: My GPA is worse than I thought

Postby KMaine » Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:47 pm

Lawquacious wrote:Age discrimination is illegal (except where bonafide job requirement). I knew an attorney who graduated law school when he was probably late 40s and did fine.

TLS seems to have especially crappy posting lately--people being dicks (speaking more generally than accusing anyone in particular) etc. I guess it's usually like that, but it just seems bad to me recently. Yeah, age may be a factor to consider, but it is not something to 'reasonably' counsel someone to avoid a profession on account of IMO.


It may be illegal, but it does not mean it is not a factor. I had about 15 screeners with NYC firms, 0 callbacks, Top 20% and LR at a t-14. I know everybody thinks they are a good interviewer, but I guarantee that I am. Could I have done some things differently and gotten a CB or two? Maybe. Would I have gotten CBs if everything else was equal, and I was 10 years younger? Absolutely. BTW - Did much better in Boston and smaller markets. I don't think counseling against entering a profession is necessarily the way to go, but counseling them not to count on Biglaw seems appropriate.

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Blessedassurance
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Re: My GPA is worse than I thought

Postby Blessedassurance » Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:48 pm

To OP, I really wish you the best of luck and success in your career. I also commend you for the way you've taken criticisms and opposing opinions in stride.

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Lawquacious
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Re: My GPA is worse than I thought

Postby Lawquacious » Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:05 pm

KMaine wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:Age discrimination is illegal (except where bonafide job requirement). I knew an attorney who graduated law school when he was probably late 40s and did fine.

TLS seems to have especially crappy posting lately--people being dicks (speaking more generally than accusing anyone in particular) etc. I guess it's usually like that, but it just seems bad to me recently. Yeah, age may be a factor to consider, but it is not something to 'reasonably' counsel someone to avoid a profession on account of IMO.


It may be illegal, but it does not mean it is not a factor. I had about 15 screeners with NYC firms, 0 callbacks, Top 20% and LR at a t-14. I know everybody thinks they are a good interviewer, but I guarantee that I am. Could I have done some things differently and gotten a CB or two? Maybe. Would I have gotten CBs if everything else was equal, and I was 10 years younger? Absolutely. BTW - Did much better in Boston and smaller markets. I don't think counseling against entering a profession is necessarily the way to go, but counseling them not to count on Biglaw seems appropriate.



Sorry to hear that dude.... Yeah, I agree it is a factor to consider... My comments were at least somewhat misplaced in this thread--I've been feeling ticked about what seems to me to be a large number of TLS posters who seem to be particularly harsh with others and obnoxiously cocksure about their own (IMO poor) opinions and advice. But what I'm talking about isn't really even necessarily an issue in this thread...

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KMaine
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Re: My GPA is worse than I thought

Postby KMaine » Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:38 pm

Things worked out great for me. I agree there are some strong, uninformed opinions on here sometimes. I try to limit myself to those issues with which I have some personal experience with. All in all, I have learned alot from the site, and it is pretty easy to figure out what is true and what is exaggerted.

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reasonable_man
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Re: My GPA is worse than I thought

Postby reasonable_man » Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:07 am

I'm not sure when I counseled anyone to not join the profession. I'm simply noting that there are certain obstacles for older people getting into this profession. Why do I say that? Because I've seen it first hand. That's why. What I said does not apply to all people (obviously). But it is clearly a consideration.

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spleenworship
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Re: My GPA is worse than I thought

Postby spleenworship » Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:24 am

reasonable_man wrote:I'm not sure when I counseled anyone to not join the profession.



reasonable_man wrote:
flounder wrote:My final transcript just came in.
2.94

GPA in 1990-1992= 2.3
GPA in 2006-2008= 4.0

I am hoping an addendum will work.



You're too old to become a lawyer anyway, so don't worry.


It might not be what you were saying there, but it was implied to some degree.

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reasonable_man
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Re: My GPA is worse than I thought

Postby reasonable_man » Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:33 am

spleenworship wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:I'm not sure when I counseled anyone to not join the profession.



reasonable_man wrote:
flounder wrote:My final transcript just came in.
2.94

GPA in 1990-1992= 2.3
GPA in 2006-2008= 4.0

I am hoping an addendum will work.



You're too old to become a lawyer anyway, so don't worry.


It might not be what you were saying there, but it was implied to some degree.

Anyone that believes that to be counseling of any sort should not be worried about anything I say, as they are clearly not intelligent enough to practice law effectively.

Kandahar_Reborn
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Re: My GPA is worse than I thought

Postby Kandahar_Reborn » Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:52 am

Like the mighty phoenix, I have risen from the ashes for one final post.

MOD EDIT: Mighty phoenix, meet fire extinguisher. Post content deleted.

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tyro
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Re: My GPA is worse than I thought

Postby tyro » Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:07 am

colbarfran wrote:I too have an'upward trend' but no idea if that actually means anything to admissions

It does.

flounder
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Re: My GPA is worse than I thought

Postby flounder » Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:21 am

I did not mean to start fight!

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reasonable_man
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Re: My GPA is worse than I thought

Postby reasonable_man » Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:32 am

flounder wrote:I did not mean to start fight!


lol Just lol at this point...

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vanwinkle
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Re: My GPA is worse than I thought

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:09 am

Kandahar_Reborn wrote:Like the mighty phoenix, I have risen from the ashes for one final post.

And now you are permanently banned. I also took your long screed away, making your ban evasion pointless. Congratulations.

Note to others: When I say stop, that means stop. You don't get to get in a "last word". It will be taken away from you, and you'll be banned for trying anyway. It's not worth it, so please don't do it.

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vanwinkle
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Re: My GPA is worse than I thought

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:26 am

To try to help this thread get back on track...

kalvano wrote:At what age does this shift in thinking happen? Is it the same for a 35-year-old? 33?

I'll be graduating in my early 30s. I think there are possibly a few opportunities I missed because of my age, but mostly it's been an asset. Well, it hasn't been an asset directly, but the work experience I gained during those years has been. I know others who are slightly older than me and have had similar success finding work.

I think you might be scrutinized more closely and it might depend on how well you do in law school. If you do really well, you can point to your age and your prior life experiences and refer to them as assets that prepared you for your current role. If you don't do so well... It may be more of a liability. But I know quite a few people who were in their early 30s and did well job-hunting, and I don't know anyone below 35 who ended up worse than others in their school/grade range.

grizzledballer
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Re: My GPA is worse than I thought

Postby grizzledballer » Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:36 pm

lotta bullies and internet tough guys in this thread. as an older 1L (older than almost everyone in this thread), _and_ a urm, (the upstairs-downstairs combo of unhirability??) I found plenty offensive in here. enough to register after roughly sixmonths of lurking. for me, the most abusive poster throughout this thread wasn't even censured, but i see that he's a hiring attorney and the admins are law students. *coughs loudly*

Rest of rambling deleted

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BrianGriffintheDog
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Re: My GPA is worse than I thought

Postby BrianGriffintheDog » Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:38 pm

If you got decent work experience (assuming you do given that your GPA is from 1999-2000 and all) and 175+ LSAT, you shouldn't have any problem getting into decent law schools, including t14 even.

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vanwinkle
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Re: My GPA is worse than I thought

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:53 pm

grizzledballer wrote:lotta bullies and internet tough guys in this thread. as an older 1L (older than almost everyone in this thread), _and_ a urm, (the upstairs-downstairs combo of unhirability??) I found plenty offensive in here. enough to register after roughly sixmonths of lurking. for me, the most abusive poster throughout this thread wasn't even censured, but i see that he's a hiring attorney and the admins are law students. *coughs loudly*

And another person banned for being stupid.

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kalvano
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Re: My GPA is worse than I thought

Postby kalvano » Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:04 pm

So, for Reasonable (or VanWinkle, if he will put down the banhammer for a few minutes), let's say you get a candidate that can offer valid reasons as to why they are switching careers. Does that help sway you over the age hump?

I do understand the concern. One of my interviewers has been younger than me, but I think it's only a problem if you let it be a problem. Is there a good way to get across in an interview that you understand that age doesn't necessarily bring with it the right knowledge, and that you're fine with working under someone younger than you because they know what they are doing?

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TrojanHopeful
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Re: My GPA is worse than I thought

Postby TrojanHopeful » Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:36 pm

Lots of censorship in here...I feel an uprising coming on. Viva La Revolucion! :lol:

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Blessedassurance
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Re: My GPA is worse than I thought

Postby Blessedassurance » Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:40 pm

Let's not get ahead of ourselves, comrade Che.

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blazinswordofjustice
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Re: My GPA is worse than I thought

Postby blazinswordofjustice » Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:02 pm

flounder wrote: I finally found something in my life that I love and I am going to pursue it.


if this is true, then I think you have a chance and are leagues ahead of half the idiots that apply to law school...

what reasonable_man says is probably true (i'm just a 0L - and yes, obviously know nothing) but i think that if you love something you'll be able to do it...or at least have a fighting chance...

/end of optimism, now i'm going back to the depression of figuring out how the hell i am going to afford LS...

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reasonable_man
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Re: My GPA is worse than I thought

Postby reasonable_man » Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:13 am

blazinswordofjustice wrote:
flounder wrote: I finally found something in my life that I love and I am going to pursue it.


if this is true, then I think you have a chance and are leagues ahead of half the idiots that apply to law school...

what reasonable_man says is probably true (i'm just a 0L - and yes, obviously know nothing) but i think that if you love something you'll be able to do it...or at least have a fighting chance...

/end of optimism, now i'm going back to the depression of figuring out how the hell i am going to afford LS...



I bet a good number of the 15,000 or more law students that go jobless each year (probably more each year), "love" the law and would love to practice, but cannot find anyone to hire them.

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blazinswordofjustice
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Re: My GPA is worse than I thought

Postby blazinswordofjustice » Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:41 pm

reasonable_man wrote: I bet a good number of the 15,000 or more law students that go jobless each year (probably more each year), "love" the law and would love to practice, but cannot find anyone to hire them.


agreed RM, I just think he has a better shot 'loving' what he is doing than all the law school students who went in for terrible reasons (parents, prestige, visions of $$$, no other job) with no idea of what being a lawyer is like...still going to be an uphill battle for the OP perhaps, but liking what your doing can only help...


...hopefully...

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reasonable_man
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Re: My GPA is worse than I thought

Postby reasonable_man » Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:21 am

blazinswordofjustice wrote:
reasonable_man wrote: I bet a good number of the 15,000 or more law students that go jobless each year (probably more each year), "love" the law and would love to practice, but cannot find anyone to hire them.


agreed RM, I just think he has a better shot 'loving' what he is doing than all the law school students who went in for terrible reasons (parents, prestige, visions of $$$, no other job) with no idea of what being a lawyer is like...still going to be an uphill battle for the OP perhaps, but liking what your doing can only help...


...hopefully...


The way I see it is this.... There are two main routes into the profession. The first is the T14, good grades, etc. route which, in theory, should lead to a biglaw job. That is, by far, the best way in.

Then there is the back-door. That requires intense working of all back channels possible, working insane hours during LS and summers (not only on earning good grades, but amassing as much useable experience possible and becoming an asset to a firm that will be in a position to hire you after the fact. The major problem is that having used this method (i'm sure I'm setting myself up for some type of anal sex reference here - but whatever - keep your minds out of the gutters), to gain access to the profession and having done it from a lower ranked school I know a few things:

1) Most people (not all), but most are quite willing to talk the talk but are not reallllly willing to put in the kind of work and dedication needed to make this method work;
2) Luck absolutely plays a role in it and I'm the first to admit it;
3) You have to be a machine, a law learning, writing, get things done before you are asked, anticipate the needs of your bosses and willing to do it all on no sleep machine;
4) Its a completely uncharted path where things like career services and on campus recruiting are a myth that will get you nowhere; and
5) A certain degree of innate likabilitiy/charisma is required (I know, I know - I'm a dick on TLS - but in real life, I'm actually a pretty damn nice person) - This will not carry the day, but its needed to make things happen.

I'm not saying all of this is impossible when you're older... I'm saying that the type of firms that are looking for the ultimate hustler are looking for people in the range of 25 to 30, who remind them of younger versions of themselves, that they believe have the dedication and fire to bust their ass for low pay at first and reap the rewards later... It might not be active discrimination, but when you don't fit the model they have in mind for the position, it becomes harder to get that done...

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snailio
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Re: My GPA is worse than I thought

Postby snailio » Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:47 am

Personally I think reasonable_man has been well...reasonable.

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kalvano
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Re: My GPA is worse than I thought

Postby kalvano » Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:54 am

reasonable_man wrote:
blazinswordofjustice wrote:
reasonable_man wrote: I bet a good number of the 15,000 or more law students that go jobless each year (probably more each year), "love" the law and would love to practice, but cannot find anyone to hire them.


agreed RM, I just think he has a better shot 'loving' what he is doing than all the law school students who went in for terrible reasons (parents, prestige, visions of $$$, no other job) with no idea of what being a lawyer is like...still going to be an uphill battle for the OP perhaps, but liking what your doing can only help...


...hopefully...


The way I see it is this.... There are two main routes into the profession. The first is the T14, good grades, etc. route which, in theory, should lead to a biglaw job. That is, by far, the best way in.

Then there is the back-door. That requires intense working of all back channels possible, working insane hours during LS and summers (not only on earning good grades, but amassing as much useable experience possible and becoming an asset to a firm that will be in a position to hire you after the fact. The major problem is that having used this method (i'm sure I'm setting myself up for some type of anal sex reference here - but whatever - keep your minds out of the gutters), to gain access to the profession and having done it from a lower ranked school I know a few things:

1) Most people (not all), but most are quite willing to talk the talk but are not reallllly willing to put in the kind of work and dedication needed to make this method work;
2) Luck absolutely plays a role in it and I'm the first to admit it;
3) You have to be a machine, a law learning, writing, get things done before you are asked, anticipate the needs of your bosses and willing to do it all on no sleep machine;
4) Its a completely uncharted path where things like career services and on campus recruiting are a myth that will get you nowhere; and
5) A certain degree of innate likabilitiy/charisma is required (I know, I know - I'm a dick on TLS - but in real life, I'm actually a pretty damn nice person) - This will not carry the day, but its needed to make things happen.

I'm not saying all of this is impossible when you're older... I'm saying that the type of firms that are looking for the ultimate hustler are looking for people in the range of 25 to 30, who remind them of younger versions of themselves, that they believe have the dedication and fire to bust their ass for low pay at first and reap the rewards later... It might not be active discrimination, but when you don't fit the model they have in mind for the position, it becomes harder to get that done...



The only quibble I have with this is that it ignored the strong regional school.




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