Stating Minority status on application

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moopness
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Re: Stating Minority status on application

Postby moopness » Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:39 pm

yngblkgifted wrote: From your post, I gather that you haven't claimed this status earlier in life because it was more advantageous to be a white guy. Now, one of the few times that Native American status can help you, you suddenly become "interested" in your heritage. There are a lot of red flags for me in this post. Of course, I don't know you personally, and I am really not trying to attack your character because you sincerely seemed concerned about this and if I were in your shoes I'd be tempted to do the same thing. I believe that your "ethical" concerns are warranted however.

I am. OP, you're clearly doing this for the boost. Don't be disingenuous.

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yngblkgifted
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Re: Stating Minority status on application

Postby yngblkgifted » Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:09 pm

I am. OP, you're clearly doing this for the boost. Don't be disingenuous.


I held back a little, being one of the first few posts and all, but yeah +1.

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Yeshia90
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Re: Stating Minority status on application

Postby Yeshia90 » Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:11 pm

yngblkgifted wrote:
I am. OP, you're clearly doing this for the boost. Don't be disingenuous.


I held back a little, being one of the first few posts and all, but yeah +1.


So? What's wrong with that? If there exists a loophole that benefits him, he'd be foolish not to take advantage of it.

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yngblkgifted
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Re: Stating Minority status on application

Postby yngblkgifted » Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:22 pm

PSUdevon wrote:
yngblkgifted wrote:
I am. OP, you're clearly doing this for the boost. Don't be disingenuous.


I held back a little, being one of the first few posts and all, but yeah +1.


So? What's wrong with that? If there exists a loophole that benefits him, he'd be foolish not to take advantage of it.



There could be major consequences for trying to game the system.

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Yeshia90
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Re: Stating Minority status on application

Postby Yeshia90 » Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:42 pm

yngblkgifted wrote:
PSUdevon wrote:
yngblkgifted wrote:
I am. OP, you're clearly doing this for the boost. Don't be disingenuous.


I held back a little, being one of the first few posts and all, but yeah +1.


So? What's wrong with that? If there exists a loophole that benefits him, he'd be foolish not to take advantage of it.



There could be major consequences for trying to game the system.


If he indeed is a Native American to the point where his brother has a tribal affiliation, I don't see any ethical issue.

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canes
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Re: Stating Minority status on application

Postby canes » Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:04 pm

Your first mistake was opening this thread. Your second mistake was thinking about not putting this down on your application. If your great-grandparent or whatever is indeed Native-American, who cares why you put it down? You put it down because it's the truth--your motive being unrelated. You stand to benefit from this and there's nothing disingenuous about it. You're not going to "get in trouble" for noting a real part of your heritage.

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yngblkgifted
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Re: Stating Minority status on application

Postby yngblkgifted » Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:23 pm

canes wrote:Your first mistake was opening this thread. Your second mistake was thinking about not putting this down on your application. If your great-grandparent or whatever is indeed Native-American, who cares why you put it down? You put it down because it's the truth--your motive being unrelated. You stand to benefit from this and there's nothing disingenuous about it. You're not going to "get in trouble" for noting a real part of your heritage.


The forms are not asking the OP to indicate a "part of his heritage", they are asking him which group he identifies with. If we go back far enough, many of us have blood that is from another race or group of people. If being Irish gave me a quantifiable boost, I'm sure I would want to all of the sudden "reconnect" with with my European ancestry. I would also know that deep down inside it was disingenuous being that I have always considered myself to be black and never once looked myself in the mirror and considered myself Irish. According to the OP, not me, he has always identified as being white (for whatever reason- the mom thing was a little strange). If OP felt there was nothing disingenuous about it, and really felt as though he could honestly say that he identified with Native Americans, he would not have asked about it. Well, like or not, he asked, we called him on his bull shit, and it is still up to him whether or not he wants to play with fire.

thederangedwang
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Re: Stating Minority status on application

Postby thederangedwang » Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:29 pm

OP, I am going to cut through all the bullshit and moral mudslinging here and tell you in plain and simple words.


It is in your BEST interest to claim that you are a URM.

In addition, your are fully qualified in claiming that you are a URM (you would not be doing something wrong)

IMO

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canes
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Re: Stating Minority status on application

Postby canes » Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:16 am

yngblkgifted wrote:
canes wrote:Your first mistake was opening this thread. Your second mistake was thinking about not putting this down on your application. If your great-grandparent or whatever is indeed Native-American, who cares why you put it down? You put it down because it's the truth--your motive being unrelated. You stand to benefit from this and there's nothing disingenuous about it. You're not going to "get in trouble" for noting a real part of your heritage.


The forms are not asking the OP to indicate a "part of his heritage", they are asking him which group he identifies with. If we go back far enough, many of us have blood that is from another race or group of people. If being Irish gave me a quantifiable boost, I'm sure I would want to all of the sudden "reconnect" with with my European ancestry. I would also know that deep down inside it was disingenuous being that I have always considered myself to be black and never once looked myself in the mirror and considered myself Irish. According to the OP, not me, he has always identified as being white (for whatever reason- the mom thing was a little strange). If OP felt there was nothing disingenuous about it, and really felt as though he could honestly say that he identified with Native Americans, he would not have asked about it. Well, like or not, he asked, we called him on his bull shit, and it is still up to him whether or not he wants to play with fire.


It's not "playing with fire"; he has a Native American ancestor that would qualify him to mark it down. And you can play semantics all you want, but an application isn't the time in your life to do soul-searching. You fill it out as accurately as you can and the best way that will help meet your end. In this case it is both accurate and in the applicant's best interest to mark down his heritage.
It would be completely irrational not to, as the available benefits (possibly getting into a better law school that could forever change your career prospects) vastly outweigh the hypothetical consequences (umm?? nope, no real ones).

shoeshine
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Re: Stating Minority status on application

Postby shoeshine » Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:35 am

canes wrote:It's not "playing with fire", he has a Native American ancestor. Andyou can play semantics all you want, but an application isn't the time in your life to do soul-searching. You fill it out as accurately as you can and the best way that will help meet your end. In this case it is both accurate and in the applicant's best interest to mark down his heritage.

FTFY

Are you serious?

If you have never claimed your NA heritage, deciding to claim to be NA just to get into law school is wrong. End of story.

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canes
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Re: Stating Minority status on application

Postby canes » Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:39 am

.
Last edited by canes on Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

shoeshine
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Re: Stating Minority status on application

Postby shoeshine » Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:45 am

F.Y.I.

80% of my 21 apps asked specifically if you were a registered member of an N.A. tribe.

and about 50% of those asked for a tribal identification number

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canes
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Re: Stating Minority status on application

Postby canes » Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:47 am

.
Last edited by canes on Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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20121109
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Re: Stating Minority status on application

Postby 20121109 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:49 am

How many times is this same question gonna come up?

If you're actually NA, do whatever you want.

Just be ready to deal with the consequences if it blows up in your face.

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yngblkgifted
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Re: Stating Minority status on application

Postby yngblkgifted » Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:00 am

canes wrote:
shoeshine wrote:
canes wrote:It's not "playing with fire", he has a Native American ancestor. Andyou can play semantics all you want, but an application isn't the time in your life to do soul-searching. You fill it out as accurately as you can and the best way that will help meet your end. In this case it is both accurate and in the applicant's best interest to mark down his heritage.

FTFY

Are you serious?

If you have never claimed your NA heritage, deciding to claim to be NA just to get into law school is wrong. End of story.


Never having claimed something doesn't discount its validity. And sorry, you're not the arbiter of "right and wrong." Applicants should act in their best interests without breaking any real rules, not the ones you arbitrarily impose on their morals.


Sure it does. I'm confident I've got more NA blood than the OP, and there are probably plenty of people on this site who are unaware of their own NA ancestry. However, this question isn't do you have any NA blood in you. If that were the case, with enough genealogical research, NAs would no longer be underrepresented in the legal profession because everyone and their cousin would be claiming the status. The question is: which group do you self-identify with? For the OP, that is white Americans. He knows this and while he might even think it's cool that he has NA ancestry (I do), if someone asked him on the street what race are you, he isn't going to say NA or even multi-racial, he will say white. The only time he will "identify" with his NA ancestry is when it is advantageous. The form isn't asking you what do you consider yourself just for this application, it's what do you consider yourself, period. When the OP doesn't answer this question to the best of his knowledge based on his actual understanding, then that is breaking rules and in that specific context, his actions are wrong and/or not valid.

If the OP really wants to know whether this is breaking any rules, why not ask the ABA?

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Yeshia90
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Re: Stating Minority status on application

Postby Yeshia90 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:18 am

yngblkgifted wrote:
canes wrote:
shoeshine wrote:
canes wrote:It's not "playing with fire", he has a Native American ancestor. Andyou can play semantics all you want, but an application isn't the time in your life to do soul-searching. You fill it out as accurately as you can and the best way that will help meet your end. In this case it is both accurate and in the applicant's best interest to mark down his heritage.

FTFY

Are you serious?

If you have never claimed your NA heritage, deciding to claim to be NA just to get into law school is wrong. End of story.


Never having claimed something doesn't discount its validity. And sorry, you're not the arbiter of "right and wrong." Applicants should act in their best interests without breaking any real rules, not the ones you arbitrarily impose on their morals.


Sure it does. I'm confident I've got more NA blood than the OP, and there are probably plenty of people on this site who are unaware of their own NA ancestry. However, this question isn't do you have any NA blood in you. If that were the case, with enough genealogical research, NAs would no longer be underrepresented in the legal profession because everyone and their cousin would be claiming the status. The question is: which group do you self-identify with? For the OP, that is white Americans. He knows this and while he might even think it's cool that he has NA ancestry (I do), if someone asked him on the street what race are you, he isn't going to say NA or even multi-racial, he will say white. The only time he will "identify" with his NA ancestry is when it is advantageous. The form isn't asking you what do you consider yourself just for this application, it's what do you consider yourself, period. When the OP doesn't answer this question to the best of his knowledge based on his actual understanding, then that is breaking rules and in that specific context, his actions are wrong and/or not valid.

If the OP really wants to know whether this is breaking any rules, why not ask the ABA?


Easy for you to say, you're part NA part black.

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yngblkgifted
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Re: Stating Minority status on application

Postby yngblkgifted » Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:34 am

Easy for you to say, you're part NA part black.


I know, I've acknowledged that previously in this thread, but it doesn't discredit what I am saying.

But I think that anyone, of any race, can see that what the OP is doing is deceitful. But, like I said earlier, it is ultimately the OP's choice.

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Yeshia90
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Re: Stating Minority status on application

Postby Yeshia90 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:36 am

yngblkgifted wrote:
Easy for you to say, you're part NA part black.


I know, I've acknowledged that previously in this thread, but it doesn't discredit what I am saying.

But I think that anyone, of any race, can see that what the OP is doing is deceitful. But, like I said earlier, it is ultimately the OP's choice.


How is it deceitful? He is of Native American ancestry, and that's what the question asks. It would be a lie to not check that box, regardless of personal benefit.

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yngblkgifted
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Re: Stating Minority status on application

Postby yngblkgifted » Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:47 am

PSUdevon wrote:
yngblkgifted wrote:
Easy for you to say, you're part NA part black.


I know, I've acknowledged that previously in this thread, but it doesn't discredit what I am saying.

But I think that anyone, of any race, can see that what the OP is doing is deceitful. But, like I said earlier, it is ultimately the OP's choice.


How is it deceitful? He is of Native American ancestry, and that's what the question asked. It would be a lie to not check that box.


Why do I get sucked into these threads....I promised myself I would stop.

Anyway, the question is asking about which group he identifies with and NOT what is your ancestry. Two very different questions that superficially seem very similar. That is why schools are requiring tribal affiliation cards, because people try to get away with answering the second question instead of the first. A "NA" answer to the second question is necessary but not sufficient. That is my honest interpretation of the actual question that is being asked on applications and I think any reasonable man would understand this. I assume OP is reasonable, and therefore answering in another way would be deceitful.

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Yeshia90
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Re: Stating Minority status on application

Postby Yeshia90 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:51 am

yngblkgifted wrote:
PSUdevon wrote:
yngblkgifted wrote:
Easy for you to say, you're part NA part black.


I know, I've acknowledged that previously in this thread, but it doesn't discredit what I am saying.

But I think that anyone, of any race, can see that what the OP is doing is deceitful. But, like I said earlier, it is ultimately the OP's choice.


How is it deceitful? He is of Native American ancestry, and that's what the question asked. It would be a lie to not check that box.


Why do I get sucked into these threads....I promised myself I would stop.

Anyway, the question is asking about which group he identifies with and NOT what is your ancestry. Two very different questions that superficially seem very similar. That is why schools are requiring tribal affiliation cards, because people try to get away with answering the second question instead of the first. A "NA" answer to the second question is necessary but not sufficient. That is my honest interpretation of the actual question that is being asked on applications and I think any reasonable man would understand this. I assume OP is reasonable, and therefore answering in another way would be deceitful.


Well, I'd like to see the question before I determine unequivocally that he's not answering it truthfully. But either way, I think my shame would easily be overcome by getting into a school a tier or two above my numbers. In this economy, to not take advantage of that would be far more disgraceful. You have to look out for yourself first. Maybe at worst, he can throw in a DS that talks about coming to terms with his NA ancestry, that mentions that he grew up in a family that respected its heritage while maintaining an outward whiteness to better blend in with the rest of the community. Would that be "honest" enough for you? If he acknowledged that he's really white, but that the NA is an important part of him?
Last edited by Yeshia90 on Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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yngblkgifted
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Re: Stating Minority status on application

Postby yngblkgifted » Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:54 am

I know it's been over 6 months since I applied but I am pretty sure that was how the question was always asked.

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yngblkgifted
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Re: Stating Minority status on application

Postby yngblkgifted » Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:28 am

Well, I'd like to see the question before I determine unequivocally that he's not answering it truthfully. But either way, I think my shame would easily be overcome by getting into a school a tier or two above my numbers. In this economy, to not take advantage of that would be far more disgraceful. You have to look out for yourself first. Maybe at worst, he can throw in a DS that talks about coming to terms with his NA ancestry, that mentions that he grew up in a family that respected its heritage while maintaining an outward whiteness to better blend in with the rest of the community. Would that be "honest" enough for you? If he acknowledged that he's really white, but that the NA is an important part of him?


It's not about whether I think it's honest, it's what the ABA thinks. And yes, I agree that that would make one hell if of a DS if executed correctly. In fact, I strongly would recommend that.

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Wade LeBosh
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Re: Stating Minority status on application

Postby Wade LeBosh » Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:46 pm

OP, you're clearly doing this for the boost. Don't be disingenuous.

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BackToTheOldHouse
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Re: Stating Minority status on application

Postby BackToTheOldHouse » Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:07 pm

This article is relevant to the conversation: http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1 ... hbxlogin=1




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