Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

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firemed
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby firemed » Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:05 am

Do not go to PSL.

ASU is a slightly better choice.

Retake is an even better choice.

The best choice might honestly be for you to take the MCAT, enter a Special Master's program, and then go to DO school (there are two in Phoenix).

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marcdagr8
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby marcdagr8 » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:46 pm

$1.99 wrote:lol you are pitiful, you stayed up this late just to troll TLS?


I am not trolling, but after the response I understand the basis of this accusation. If anyone out there has helpful responses but don't want to take the time due the possibility of flaming, please PM me and I would be happy to provide any information that may help support my authenticity. I ask this of the doubters because class starts in a week, orientation starts Tuesday, and I feel as I am in a bit of a cross-road in my career. Also I was up late because I decided that last night was a good night to have a few beers and spend some quality time trying to figure out my direction.

ToTransferOrNot wrote:He has a career established. Going to a school outside the T14 (and if he doesn't get into Northwestern, he's probably not getting anywhere in T14) would not provide good enough job prospects to offset the three years of lost wages and potentially lower future earnings. 100% serious.


The problem with using my established career is that I got fired/quit in April and my field was highly specialized with no comparable companies in state. While I worked a 60k/year job, it does not translate into even a 40k/year job elsewhere.
ToTransferOrNot wrote:OP, you need to really carefully evaluate your reasons and motivations for going to law school. Look at the opportunity costs you will inflict. If money is one of the reasons you're interested in a law degree, you have a LOT of re-evaluating to do. Even if money isn't one of the reasons you want to be a lawyer (you're one of those 'love of the law' type folks,) you *really* need to thoroughly discover what "being a lawyer" is, particularly when you're not coming out of top schools. Being a lawyer is a job like any other job. Personally, I don't tend to understand the non-monetary aspects that some people consider. But the great majority of people who want to go into the law for non-monetary reasons are seriously mistaken about what the lawyer's life entails, and end up being bitterly dissapointed.

Awesome advice on this one. I have a bunch of friends that went to law school just because they were afraid of working so they continued on with school after undergrad. Personally I have a dad who was an attorney, and a step-dad who currently is. I do not have the false allusion that being a lawyer is like Law and Order or anything else on TV. I know the majority of legal work is sitting your ass in a chair and reading or writing relatively boring stuff while dealing with noncompliant idiots for clients.
firemed wrote: Do not go to PSL.

ASU is a slightly better choice.

Retake is an even better choice.

The best choice might honestly be for you to take the MCAT, enter a Special Master's program, and then go to DO school (there are two in Phoenix).

is that you Joe!!!? :) you sound like a friend of mine.

While medicine is where I would really like to be, I don’t know if I can put up with the time it will take me. 2 years to take the MCAT and get in, 4 years of med school, and 3-5 years residency (I would want to do some flavor of surgery) puts me at 38-40 years old before I am making any money. With the specter of slashed reimbursement rates looming over the medical field, and a significantly shortened career as a DO or MD (due to age) I am not sure that medical school would be a good fiscal choice.

Just to sum up where I believe this discussion has led me so far I would say that the obvious consensus is to only go to phoenix school of law if I would be happy graduating there. While a good LSAT and a recent track record of good academic performance improve the odds that I will be highly ranked in my class, I should not in any way plan on being a better student than my classmates.

Now we could say that the reaction to attending PSL under any circumstances is mixed. However could we agree that the path of PSL leads to mediocrity for the majority? If this is the case PSL might be an acceptable choice for me since I do not plan on working for large firms for much of my career. I would like to initially get a job to learn the basics of practice, but I am mostly interested in starting my own firm and at that point I feel that income is more related to marketing and networking than where your degree was from.

I really appreciate all of the input.

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$1.99
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby $1.99 » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:53 pm

phoenix does not lead to mediocrity. it leads to the bottom of the trash can. didn't shaq get his degree from phoenix university?

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:55 pm

The majority of people who go to PSL are going to be unable to find any job in the legal field, so no, mediocrity probably is not the end game.

Honestly, "mediocrity" isn't really the end game for many law graduates in general. You either do well (biglaw, fed gov) or you crater ("shitlaw" - to use the vernacular - if you're lucky, unemployment if you're unlucky (and make no mistake, many, many people end up being unlucky, especially when you're talking about dreg schools out of the top 50-100)). Fighting your way into a successful solo practice is incredibly risky, the payoff generally isn't great even if you can keep things afloat, etc.

Sorry to hear that you were fired/that you quit. It seems like you have a decent view of what practice is, given your family connections, but keep in mind that the practice has changed dramatically from when your family members would have started.

jarofsoup
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby jarofsoup » Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:01 pm

With those numbers I would think U of A or ASU would be options. Atleast part time.

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Glock
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby Glock » Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:04 pm

This site promotes a biglaw or bust attitude. There are plenty of solo practitioners that make decent money advertising on the back of the alternative newspaper and providing DUI defense, etc. It still does not make financial sense.

PSL will put you at the bottom of the pile in every way. At least go to ASU so there is some upside potential.

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Glock
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby Glock » Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:06 pm

$1.99 wrote:phoenix does not lead to mediocrity. it leads to the bottom of the trash can. didn't shaq get his degree from phoenix university?



The diploma mill University of Phoenix is not related to the TTTT Phoenix School of Law. Both do happen to be the shittiest schools in what they do.

I am not saying PSL is easy, I am just saying it is impossible to get a job out of that hole.

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Glock
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby Glock » Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:08 pm

jarofsoup wrote:With those numbers I would think U of A or ASU would be options. Atleast part time.




Neither ASU nor UA offer a part time program. 165/2.8 has a very low odds of acceptance at both, though it is worth an application.

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Wade LeBosh
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby Wade LeBosh » Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:09 pm

WiTTTTh TTTTheir recenTTTT accrediTTTTaTTTTion, Phoenix School of Law is a choice for any aspiring aTTTTorney.

firemed
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby firemed » Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:47 pm

marcdagr8 wrote:
firemed wrote: Do not go to PSL.

ASU is a slightly better choice.

Retake is an even better choice.

The best choice might honestly be for you to take the MCAT, enter a Special Master's program, and then go to DO school (there are two in Phoenix).

is that you Joe!!!? :) you sound like a friend of mine.

While medicine is where I would really like to be, I don’t know if I can put up with the time it will take me. 2 years to take the MCAT and get in, 4 years of med school, and 3-5 years residency (I would want to do some flavor of surgery) puts me at 38-40 years old before I am making any money. With the specter of slashed reimbursement rates looming over the medical field, and a significantly shortened career as a DO or MD (due to age) I am not sure that medical school would be a good fiscal choice.




Not Joe. Attending PSL will make you very lucky to attain mediocrity, and the phrase "would you like fries with that" is likely to be in your future.

Look, you have a biochem degree... get a Master's in that and you could do patent law- even going to a T2 or a regional T3 gives you a good shot at a job after graduation.

The other option is to nut up and go to DO school where they take the higher grade on retakes. Yeah, you will be 38-40.... OMG, a full twenty years making 200K a year, how awful. I totally feel for you.... NOT. If that is your dream, don't wuss out... apply for the special masters at Midwestern.

Or if you don't mind being bored consider pharmacy school.... $300K a year to be bored off your ass doesn't sound bad to me some days.

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Glock
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby Glock » Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:26 pm

firemed wrote:
Or if you don't mind being bored consider pharmacy school.... $300K a year to be bored off your ass doesn't sound bad to me some days.



Where do you get 300k from? Avg. 110k. Some of the better retail jobs are 130k or so. Little opportunity for growth. Hospitals pay less. I suppose there are some super-elite research and emergency jobs, but those are only attainable under rare circumstances.

firemed
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby firemed » Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:07 pm

Glock wrote:
firemed wrote:
Or if you don't mind being bored consider pharmacy school.... $300K a year to be bored off your ass doesn't sound bad to me some days.



Where do you get 300k from? Avg. 110k. Some of the better retail jobs are 130k or so. Little opportunity for growth. Hospitals pay less. I suppose there are some super-elite research and emergency jobs, but those are only attainable under rare circumstances.


Average is 110K... some make a lot more, a few make a little less. The retail establishment half a mile from me is paying 120K a year if you work overnights for them. Admittedly we have a pharmacist shortage in my state, but still...

A friend of mine's wife has a published salary of 220K for being head of a hospital's pharmacy dept. But she gets about 80K more a year in other compensation for giving speeches, attending meetings, commenting on research, heading panels, teaching one class a year at the local pharmacy school, etc. This doesn't even include all the free dinners, lunches, breakfasts, and trips to Vegas, the Bahamas, etc. One day my friend said "Hey I'll work an overtime to pay for xyz." (this would've netted him about $500). His wife replied "Don't bother... I don't want you gone for another 24 hours. I'll do a consult for a drug company tomorrow and make $600... plus they are giving me lunch with it, so you can come with me. It should only take about 3 hours."

So, I guess depending on where you are in the country and how far you are in on the profession will affect it... I was just trying to tell OP that maybe he should go pharmacy because it is a guaranteed job with good money- no matter what school he goes to.

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Glock
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby Glock » Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:13 pm

firemed wrote:
Glock wrote:
firemed wrote:
Or if you don't mind being bored consider pharmacy school.... $300K a year to be bored off your ass doesn't sound bad to me some days.



Where do you get 300k from? Avg. 110k. Some of the better retail jobs are 130k or so. Little opportunity for growth. Hospitals pay less. I suppose there are some super-elite research and emergency jobs, but those are only attainable under rare circumstances.


Average is 110K... some make a lot more, a few make a little less. The retail establishment half a mile from me is paying 120K a year if you work overnights for them. Admittedly we have a pharmacist shortage in my state, but still...

A friend of mine's wife has a published salary of 220K for being head of a hospital's pharmacy dept. But she gets about 80K more a year in other compensation for giving speeches, attending meetings, commenting on research, heading panels, teaching one class a year at the local pharmacy school, etc. This doesn't even include all the free dinners, lunches, breakfasts, and trips to Vegas, the Bahamas, etc. One day my friend said "Hey I'll work an overtime to pay for xyz." (this would've netted him about $500). His wife replied "Don't bother... I don't want you gone for another 24 hours. I'll do a consult for a drug company tomorrow and make $600... plus they are giving me lunch with it, so you can come with me. It should only take about 3 hours."

So, I guess depending on where you are in the country and how far you are in on the profession will affect it... I was just trying to tell OP that maybe he should go pharmacy because it is a guaranteed job with good money- no matter what school he goes to.



Median is 112k, average is 110k. There are not a lot of hospital head jobs, and even the ones that do exist typically don't pay 300k.

Pharmacy is a great career, but saying they make 300k is like saying lawyers make 500k. They exist but results are not typical and it is not reflective of realistic expectations.

firemed
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby firemed » Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:47 pm

Glock wrote:
firemed wrote:I was just trying to tell OP that maybe he should go pharmacy because it is a guaranteed job with good money- no matter what school he goes to.



Median is 112k, average is 110k. There are not a lot of hospital head jobs, and even the ones that do exist typically don't pay 300k.

Pharmacy is a great career, but saying they make 300k is like saying lawyers make 500k. They exist but results are not typical and it is not reflective of realistic expectations.


Good Point. I'll concede that. I am keeping the above quote though, because the difference with lawyers and pharmacists is that virtually any pharmacist from any school graduates making about 80-100K, but the majority of new lawyers are either unemployed or making less than 50K... especially from schools like PSL.

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gaud
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby gaud » Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:59 pm

I actually know of a grad from PSL who has a pretty stellar clerkship right now.......... so making something happen is not impossible, but it will be EXTREMELY difficult when you are up against grads from better schools with better programs (UofA and ASU)

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marcdagr8
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby marcdagr8 » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:21 pm

OK so there really isn’t much support for PSL out there. It may have its strengths regionally, but if you try and get out of Arizona you probably won’t even get a job interview. Of course there will be exceptions but I only wish to discuss the norm.

However lets say that a PSL grad is able to get a decent job through connections. At what point will doing well professionally, and picking up some quality references from your peers, begin to compensate for a TTTT law school? Will you get to a point where a big firm will even interview you if you have a crap school on an otherwise quality resume?

firemed
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby firemed » Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:02 pm

marcdagr8 wrote:OK so there really isn’t much support for PSL out there. It may have its strengths regionally, but if you try and get out of Arizona you probably won’t even get a job interview. Of course there will be exceptions but I only wish to discuss the norm.

However lets say that a PSL grad is able to get a decent job through connections. At what point will doing well professionally, and picking up some quality references from your peers, begin to compensate for a TTTT law school? Will you get to a point where a big firm will even interview you if you have a crap school on an otherwise quality resume?


Look, I don't know for sure, so I don't want to comment... but I haven't heard good things.

Is it possibly you could get a job with family after graduation? Because that would almost, but not really, make it worthwhile to go to PSL.

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Glock
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby Glock » Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:12 pm

marcdagr8 wrote:OK so there really isn’t much support for PSL out there. It may have its strengths regionally, but if you try and get out of Arizona you probably won’t even get a job interview. Of course there will be exceptions but I only wish to discuss the norm.

However lets say that a PSL grad is able to get a decent job through connections. At what point will doing well professionally, and picking up some quality references from your peers, begin to compensate for a TTTT law school? Will you get to a point where a big firm will even interview you if you have a crap school on an otherwise quality resume?



It isn't even strong in Arizona. I have seen ONE PSL grad (#1 in the first class) employed at any law firm with more than 5 attorneys. PSL is not a way to get any traditional lawyer job- it is just a way to be admitted to the bar. If PSL says otherwise they are lying to your face.

It will be EXTREMELY HARD to get to a big firm from PSL. You'll have to make your own very lucrative solo civil practice that a firm wants to absorb. It happens, you are just looking at laughably long odds.

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Glock
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby Glock » Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:16 pm

Why don't you look on their employment stats? Go ahead and open the PDF and scroll down to the list of employers. You too can work at "The Law Offices of Harla Davidson," but only if you are in the top of your PSL class!

Not a single NALP firm. Not a single respectable firm. The best job anybody appears to have is a clerkship at the Arizona Court of Appeals Division 1. Think about that.

--LinkRemoved--

overunderachiever
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby overunderachiever » Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:25 pm

Tell Candy we said hi :lol:

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birdlaw117
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby birdlaw117 » Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:27 pm

Glock wrote:Why don't you look on their employment stats? Go ahead and open the PDF and scroll down to the list of employers. You too can work at "The Law Offices of Harla Davidson," but only if you are in the top of your PSL class!

Do you suppose they specialize in representing companies that make knock-offs of well-known brands?

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marcdagr8
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby marcdagr8 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:25 am

Fuck it.

I am skipping orientation which starts in 30 minutes, so I guess I will not be going to PSL this semester. I guess it is time to get a job. Anyone got any leads in the phoenix area?

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vanwinkle
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby vanwinkle » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:28 am

marcdagr8 wrote:I am skipping orientation which starts in 30 minutes, so I guess I will not be going to PSL this semester.

--ImageRemoved--

Good luck with your job hunt, dude.

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Glock
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby Glock » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:45 am

marcdagr8 wrote:Fuck it.

I am skipping orientation which starts in 30 minutes, so I guess I will not be going to PSL this semester. I guess it is time to get a job. Anyone got any leads in the phoenix area?



If you have half a brain you can get hired at a car dealership doing sales. It isn't prestigious, but it will see you through your retake and application to ASU.

Or try to segway you medical crap into a job there. Get creative.

firemed
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby firemed » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:49 am

marcdagr8 wrote:Fuck it.

I am skipping orientation which starts in 30 minutes, so I guess I will not be going to PSL this semester. I guess it is time to get a job. Anyone got any leads in the phoenix area?


Dude, I don't usually say this, but I honestly believe you might have made the best choice.

Good luck with your job hunt, and whether you decide to go to ASU or U of A for law... or you decide to go to medical school, I got the feeling you will make it.

You need any more help, come back any time.

ETA: EMT-B class at a local community college takes one semester, gets a job paying about $10/hr, and looks good on a medical school application... not saying, just saying.
Last edited by firemed on Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.




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