Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

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marcdagr8
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Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby marcdagr8 » Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:04 am

So I got a 165 on the LSAT this June but I have a 2.8 GPA. I got accepted to Phoenix School of Law for this year and would like to transfer out after my first year. Also I got a 18k grant from PSL taking their usual 38.5k annual tuition down to about 20k. Also I am almost 29 and want to get this whole career thing started. My questions would be:

What are my chances of transferring to a well ranked school if I am #1 in my class?

Would retaking the LSAT in February improve my chances? I got the 165 with about 80 hours of prep so I assume that I could crack 170 if I took it again.

Would I have a better chance of getting into a good school as a transfer student from PSL in the top of my class or waiting a year and applying with a 170+ LSAT but a 2.8 GPA?

Danteshek
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby Danteshek » Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:10 am

may god have mercy on his soul

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Lawquacious
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby Lawquacious » Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:38 am

Danteshek wrote:may god have mercy on his soul


:lol:

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Lawquacious
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby Lawquacious » Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:44 am

marcdagr8 wrote:So I got a 165 on the LSAT this June but I have a 2.8 GPA. I got accepted to Phoenix School of Law for this year and would like to transfer out after my first year. Also I got a 18k grant from PSL taking their usual 38.5k annual tuition down to about 20k. Also I am almost 29 and want to get this whole career thing started. My questions would be:

What are my chances of transferring to a well ranked school if I am #1 in my class?

Would retaking the LSAT in February improve my chances? I got the 165 with about 80 hours of prep so I assume that I could crack 170 if I took it again.

Would I have a better chance of getting into a good school as a transfer student from PSL in the top of my class or waiting a year and applying with a 170+ LSAT but a 2.8 GPA?



The conventional wisdom is that you shouldn't go to any school planning on transferring. Even though you are way above the LSAT 75th% at PSL you can't at all expect that you will be #1 in the class (or necessarily even close-- I think that is what the have mercy comment was referencing, along with the fact that discussions of TTTT unaccredited schools tend to be fairly one-sided and perhaps unproductive on here). I think you may have a decent shot at transferring to ASU if you do well at PSL, but definitely don't count on the transfer. With a 165 I don't think you should really even consider PSL unless a full ride (though most on here will probably say don't consider it no matter what). I think waiting and retaking could be a good option, but I do also understand wanting to get things moving. With a 170 you would be looking at WUSTL probably, which is worlds apart from PSL.
Last edited by Lawquacious on Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Yeshia90
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby Yeshia90 » Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:45 am

Take two years off, get good work experience, retake to a 170, and enjoy Northwestern.

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marcdagr8
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby marcdagr8 » Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:30 am

I am curious why i need divine mercy, especially since I am quite sure that I am undeserving.

I already have seven years experience in the medical field, what work experience should I be going for?

I realize that I cant guarantee a top spot in any class, even if it is at a relatively crappy school (which is ABA accredited), although you gotta shoot for something, and I have been able to be the top student in some of my classes in undergrad (the hard ones).

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birdlaw117
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby birdlaw117 » Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:36 am

marcdagr8 wrote:I am curious why i need divine mercy, especially since I am quite sure that I am undeserving.

I already have seven years experience in the medical field, what work experience should I be going for?

I realize that I cant guarantee a top spot in any class, even if it is at a relatively crappy school (which is ABA accredited), although you gotta shoot for something, and I have been able to be the top student in some of my classes in undergrad (the hard ones).

Really? You were the top student in your hard classes and still finished with a 2.8? Is a B the highest grade they give?

Oh, and in other news:
Image

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billyez
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby billyez » Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:40 am

You need to retake and get a 170. You managed to get a 165, so you should be fine. Is there a reason why you have a low GPA? If so, write about that as an addendum. Don't go to Phoenix.

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marcdagr8
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby marcdagr8 » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:00 am

Basically I wasn't committed to academics when I first started college, and the fact that I picked a difficult major (biochemistry) did not help. During my last 80 hours of undergrad I earned a 3.6 GPA over 6 semesters while I also worked full-time, got married, had a baby, got a divorce, and was a 50% parent.

Also I would like to mention that I received a A+ in biophysical chemistry (average grade was a C+). Perhaps you do not understand that the "A" in GPA stands for average, birdlaw117. Why exactly you would think that I would lie to an anonymous group when the truth is essential to good advice is a bit beyond my understanding, or at least what I care to understand.

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Nom Sawyer
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby Nom Sawyer » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:10 am

don't go to phoenix school of law... you already have plenty of work experience, so retake, study as hard as you can, get a 170+ and ED to Northwestern

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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby birdlaw117 » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:11 am

You're talking about planning on being the #1 student in your class and then transferring, even though you have an LSAT that would get you into much better schools, and you're pretending that I'm the crazy one for calling you a flame? Seriously?

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Lawquacious
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby Lawquacious » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:28 am

birdlaw117 wrote:You're talking about planning on being the #1 student in your class and then transferring, even though you have an LSAT that would get you into much better schools, and you're pretending that I'm the crazy one for calling you a flame? Seriously?



Yeah, I gotta say OP, you are rather sounding like a flame/troll to me as well, but I realize that may not be the case. I guess I figured the topic would be too lame to troll on, but actually this type of topic is pretty classic troll material on TLS (and I find trolling pretty lame in general, so it shouldn't surprise me if people bother to troll topics like this). Again, I'm definitely not saying you're not for real, but I do understand why someone might call flame on you.

Where else did you apply? I'm assuming you live in PHX and want to stay? I do think you wouldn't get ASU or UA with your 2.8, but I think you probably could have gotten some T2 schools, possibly with a little money. Then again, they wouldn't be in AZ, and if you want to stay in AZ it does make sense you wouldn't have choosen them... Which comes back to the temptation of going to PSL. I don't think anybody can say with certainty that it won't ultimately work out well for you (in that you may in fact be able to transfer or may somehow actually get a legal career going out of PSL), but it is taking a risk, and you may have very limited options upon graduation.

* On the accredited thing, I thought they were provisionally accredited only. It is almost as good as full accreditation, but some schools don't accept transfers from provisionally (ABA) accredited schools IIRC. But I'm pretty sure that ASU does.

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marcdagr8
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby marcdagr8 » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:35 am

birdlaw117 wrote:You're talking about planning on being the #1 student in your class and then transferring, even though you have an LSAT that would get you into much better schools, and you're pretending that I'm the crazy one for calling you a flame? Seriously?


NI never said that you were crazy, but I did imply that you were being a little bit of an asshole. I realize that my LSAT puts me in range for better schools but I have a miserable GPA and I didn't take the LSAT till this June, after the admission cycles were over at all the good schools (I only applied to PSL).

I also understand the confusion, but I did not say that I plan on being the top student in my original post, only what if I was. I am asking the if question to help me decide what I should do. Personally I think that I have a 10-20% chance pulling it off given my recent academic performance and the fact that I am 12 points above their 75% LSAT.

Now, with your comment that I could get into better schools with my LSAT score, does that mean that even with my 2.8 GPA I should still try for something better? Conversely would I be able to get into a better school still with a very high ranking after my first year?

Lastly, I have never really spent much time on discussion boards so I had to look up flaming, which according to urbandictionary.com is "To insult someone electronically, or otherwise. Sometimes to be a group insult." With that definition I have no clue how my original post would be considered flaming so I must ask for clarification. Also while on urbandictionary I learned what the Tony Danza is. BRILLIANT!

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Lawquacious
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby Lawquacious » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:43 am

marcdagr8 wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:You're talking about planning on being the #1 student in your class and then transferring, even though you have an LSAT that would get you into much better schools, and you're pretending that I'm the crazy one for calling you a flame? Seriously?


NI never said that you were crazy, but I did imply that you were being a little bit of an asshole. I realize that my LSAT puts me in range for better schools but I have a miserable GPA and I didn't take the LSAT till this June, after the admission cycles were over at all the good schools (I only applied to PSL).

I also understand the confusion, but I did not say that I plan on being the top student in my original post, only what if I was. I am asking the if question to help me decide what I should do. Personally I think that I have a 10-20% chance pulling it off given my recent academic performance and the fact that I am 12 points above their 75% LSAT.

Now, with your comment that I could get into better schools with my LSAT score, does that mean that even with my 2.8 GPA I should still try for something better? Conversely would I be able to get into a better school still with a very high ranking after my first year?

Lastly, I have never really spent much time on discussion boards so I had to look up flaming, which according to urbandictionary.com is "To insult someone electronically, or otherwise. Sometimes to be a group insult." With that definition I have no clue how my original post would be considered flaming so I must ask for clarification. Also while on urbandictionary I learned what the Tony Danza is. BRILLIANT!



On the flame/troll issue, the idea could be to create a thread where you pretend to be someone you're not/or pretend to be in a position that you're not in to get certain reactions from people and to try to make people look stupid (how trolling usually works on here). For example, if you were someone who believes that anyone who would even consider going to PLS is foolish for doing so and you have an elitist disposition you might get off on seeing people try to defend a choice to go to PSL and/or you might get off on hearing other people bash the school or the people who go there. But it sounds like this isn't you (it is hard to tell sometimes though, which is part of what makes it frustrating for people being trolled but 'fun' for the troll). For instance, you could be trolling me right now, at least to the extent that I am taking time to give thoughtful responses to someone who could just be dicking around.

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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby marcdagr8 » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:51 am

Lawquacious wrote:
marcdagr8 wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:You're talking about planning on being the #1 student in your class and then transferring, even though you have an LSAT that would get you into much better schools, and you're pretending that I'm the crazy one for calling you a flame? Seriously?


NI never said that you were crazy, but I did imply that you were being a little bit of an asshole. I realize that my LSAT puts me in range for better schools but I have a miserable GPA and I didn't take the LSAT till this June, after the admission cycles were over at all the good schools (I only applied to PSL).

I also understand the confusion, but I did not say that I plan on being the top student in my original post, only what if I was. I am asking the if question to help me decide what I should do. Personally I think that I have a 10-20% chance pulling it off given my recent academic performance and the fact that I am 12 points above their 75% LSAT.

Now, with your comment that I could get into better schools with my LSAT score, does that mean that even with my 2.8 GPA I should still try for something better? Conversely would I be able to get into a better school still with a very high ranking after my first year?

Lastly, I have never really spent much time on discussion boards so I had to look up flaming, which according to urbandictionary.com is "To insult someone electronically, or otherwise. Sometimes to be a group insult." With that definition I have no clue how my original post would be considered flaming so I must ask for clarification. Also while on urbandictionary I learned what the Tony Danza is. BRILLIANT!



On the flame/troll issue, the idea could be to create a thread where you pretend to be someone you're not/or pretend to be in a position that your're not in to get certain reactions from people and to try to make people look stupid (how trolling usually works on here). For example, if you were someone who believes that anyone who would even consider going to PLS is foolish for doing so and you have an elitist disposition you might get off on seeing people try to defend a choice to go to PSL and/or you might get off on hearing other people bash the school or the people who go there. But it sounds like this isn't you (it is hard to tell sometimes though, which is part of what makes it frustrating for people being trolled but 'fun' for the troll). For instance, you could be trolling me right now, at least to the extent that I am taking time to give thoughtful responses to someone who could just be dicking around.


I totally understand the flame accusation now. Additionally since your comments corroborate those of birdlaw117 I retract the condescending remark I made to him and admit that it is in fact me who is the asshole. In my defense, given my discussion board naivete, I thought that his picture of the flame meant that I was being burned, not that I am a flamer.

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$1.99
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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby $1.99 » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:38 am

lol you are pitiful, you stayed up this late just to troll TLS?

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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:13 am

The chances of law school resulting in better career prospects than you currently have are basically zero. I wouldn't even say retake - I would just say "don't go." But if you have some irrational burning desire to be a lawyer, you shouldn't go unless you get your LSAT high enough to get into Northwestern ED. No other school you could possibly get into with that GPA could possibly justify the cost of attendance and, importantly, the opportunity cost (even if you managed to get a full scholarship).

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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:25 am

You should not attend Phoenix School of Law.

1) We have a Transfers forum where people ask for advice on transferring. There's a stickied post at the top of the forum for all the 0Ls to read before making posts like this. This is the part that's relevant to you:

The near-universal response you will get is that you should never attend a school specifically intending to transfer. There are two reasons for this.

The first is that 95% of transfer admissions is your 1L grades, and you can't predict in advance how well you're going to do your 1L year. If you intend to transfer up a tier, you're going to need to do very well your first year, probably top 10% or better. The problem is, everyone is going to be trying to be in the top 10% of their class their first year, and if 100% of the class is trying to be in the top 10%, 90% will be disappointed. And since there's no way to know where you'll do until you actually finish 1L year, you have no way of knowing as a 0L whether you'll be in the top 10% or the disappointed 90% until you actually are.

The second is that transferring schools means you leave behind professors that you built up a reputation with and are starting over. This is why even lateral transfers, which are a lot more possible, are typically regarded as dumb. You're leaving behind all the good things you built up at your first year of school and not gaining any new employment opportunities because you're not transferring upward at all. If you plan on attending school X for a year and then transfer to similarly-ranked school Y, you should've just attended school Y in the first place.

The typical answer you're going to get, if you can't get into school Y, is to take a year, fix whatever is causing you to not get into school Y (retake the LSAT, get more WE, etc.), and reapply. That is, honestly, both easier and better for you than transferring. Transferring is a bitch, do not count on it.

2) Even with a GPA that terrible, you could get into much better schools. There are a lot of schools, even possibly some T1 (Tier 1, or the top 50 ranked schools in the country) schools, that will sometimes admit people with a GPA that low. You could definitely get into a number of T2 (Tier 2, or schools ranked 51-100) schools with your numbers/background. Law school admissions is largely a numbers game, and your LSAT score is so high that you're still worth considering to some schools. If you focused your applications on whatever personal struggles you faced, how well you did in your later years of school, and the years of work experience you've earned since then, you could probably get some T1 schools to admit you. Work experience is valuable, can demonstrate maturity, and can help offset a low GPA. (I somewhat suspect it's also valuable because, if their admissions criteria ever came under scrutiny, they could say "We admitted this guy because of his years of work experience!" instead of just "We admitted this guy because of his high LSAT score!")

3) If going to a school like Phoenix School of Law is your only option, you would honestly be better off not going to law school. You may personally believe about your abilities or your potential to overcome odds, and under the right opportunities that might even be true. However, the key there is "under the right opportunities", and schools like this simply don't offer you a realistic chance of finding worthwhile employment when you graduate. Even if you did well and ended up close to the top of your class, you would face a real struggle finding work, a much harder struggle than you would face if you ended up going to a better school. If your choices are between PSL and nothing, "nothing" is actually the right decision.

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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby Aqualibrium » Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:28 am

ToTransferOrNot wrote:The chances of law school resulting in better career prospects than you currently have are basically zero. I wouldn't even say retake - I would just say "don't go." But if you have some irrational burning desire to be a lawyer, you shouldn't go unless you get your LSAT high enough to get into Northwestern ED. No other school you could possibly get into with that GPA could possibly justify the cost of attendance and, importantly, the opportunity cost (even if you managed to get a full scholarship).



Not sure is serious...

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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:58 am

Aqualibrium wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:The chances of law school resulting in better career prospects than you currently have are basically zero. I wouldn't even say retake - I would just say "don't go." But if you have some irrational burning desire to be a lawyer, you shouldn't go unless you get your LSAT high enough to get into Northwestern ED. No other school you could possibly get into with that GPA could possibly justify the cost of attendance and, importantly, the opportunity cost (even if you managed to get a full scholarship).



Not sure is serious...


He has a career established. Going to a school outside the T14 (and if he doesn't get into Northwestern, he's probably not getting anywhere in T14) would not provide good enough job prospects to offset the three years of lost wages and potentially lower future earnings.

100% serious.

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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:02 am

ToTransferOrNot wrote:He has a career established. Going to a school outside the T14 (and if he doesn't get into Northwestern, he's probably not getting anywhere in T14) would not provide good enough job prospects to offset the three years of lost wages and potentially lower future earnings.

100% serious.

Actually, for someone who's in a stable career already, this is credited.

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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby taxguy » Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:23 am

marcdagr8 wrote:So I got a 165 on the LSAT this June but I have a 2.8 GPA. I got accepted to Phoenix School of Law for this year and would like to transfer out after my first year. Also I got a 18k grant from PSL taking their usual 38.5k annual tuition down to about 20k. Also I am almost 29 and want to get this whole career thing started. My questions would be:

What are my chances of transferring to a well ranked school if I am #1 in my class?

Would retaking the LSAT in February improve my chances? I got the 165 with about 80 hours of prep so I assume that I could crack 170 if I took it again.

Would I have a better chance of getting into a good school as a transfer student from PSL in the top of my class or waiting a year and applying with a 170+ LSAT but a 2.8 GPA?


I would NEVER go to PSL. NEVER. Don't count on transferring either. LSAT isn't as correlative to performance as you would believe. However, I did a search with your current LSAT and GPAs. I suggest that you consider applying to the following,which you have a decent chance for:

*Florida
*Wake Forrest
* Arizona State
* Wisconsin
* University of Indiana
* Florida State
* Cincinnati
* University of Miami

Most of these schools are T1 schools too except for Cincinnati and Miami,which I believe are high end tier 2. If you do well at these school, you can transfer to a top t1 school too. Don't go to PSL>

A big benefit to attending Cincinnati , Florida state and Florida and maybe others, is that you might, with proper planning, achieve in state tuition in your second and third years.

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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby JamMasterJ » Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:29 am

taxguy wrote:
marcdagr8 wrote:So I got a 165 on the LSAT this June but I have a 2.8 GPA. I got accepted to Phoenix School of Law for this year and would like to transfer out after my first year. Also I got a 18k grant from PSL taking their usual 38.5k annual tuition down to about 20k. Also I am almost 29 and want to get this whole career thing started. My questions would be:

What are my chances of transferring to a well ranked school if I am #1 in my class?

Would retaking the LSAT in February improve my chances? I got the 165 with about 80 hours of prep so I assume that I could crack 170 if I took it again.

Would I have a better chance of getting into a good school as a transfer student from PSL in the top of my class or waiting a year and applying with a 170+ LSAT but a 2.8 GPA?


I would NEVER go to PSL. NEVER. Don't count on transferring either. LSAT isn't as correlative to performance as you would believe. However, I did a search with your current LSAT and GPAs. I suggest that you consider applying to the following,which you have a decent chance for:

*Florida
*Wake Forrest
* Arizona State
* Wisconsin
* University of Indiana
* Florida State
* Cincinnati
* University of Miami

Most of these schools are T1 schools too except for Cincinnati and Miami,which I believe are high end tier 2. If you do well at these school, you can transfer to a top t1 school too. Don't go to PSL>

A big benefit to attending Cincinnati , Florida state and Florida and maybe others, is that you might, with proper planning, achieve in state tuition in your second and third years.
I can't believe I'm doing this but.... +1 cringe (except the part about transferring from those schools)

Also, agree with everything Van said
Last edited by JamMasterJ on Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:36 am

taxguy wrote:Most of these schools are T1 schools too except for Cincinnati and Miami,which I believe are high end tier 2. If you do well at these school, you can transfer to a top t1 school too.

I actually agree with most of the advice you gave, but talking about transferring when choosing a law school just leads to terrible advice no matter which school you're talking about. Going to law school with the intention of doing well and transferring up is a huge mistake. Transferring is a difficult and time-consuming process, especially since in the vast majority of cases you're having to relocate to a new city on short notice, and you lose things by changing schools after your first year. It's only really worth it if you can make a substantial move upward to a much better school, and in order to do that you'll need to do more than just "do well", you'll need to be near the top of your class. The odds of being that successful are very low, low enough that this should not even be considered as part of deciding where to go.

It's especially confusing that you brought up the prospect of transferring after you said this:
taxguy wrote:Don't count on transferring either. LSAT isn't as correlative to performance as you would believe.

It's not just something people shouldn't count on, it's something people shouldn't even consider when choosing a law school. "I'll go there, I can do well and transfer" is one of the biggest mistakes people can make. It's a way of misleading yourself into thinking you have options that don't really exist, and it can lead to attending a school you otherwise shouldn't have gone to. To even discuss it like it's a realistic possibility helps people talk themselves into something they'll very likely regret later on.

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Re: Transferring from Phoenix School of Law?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:43 am

Of that list above, I can say with 100% certainty that OP would be insane to give up an established career to attend Wisconsin; and Wisconsin is comparable to most of the other schools on that list.

OP, you need to really carefully evaluate your reasons and motivations for going to law school. Look at the opportunity costs you will inflict. If money is one of the reasons you're interested in a law degree, you have a LOT of re-evaluating to do. Even if money isn't one of the reasons you want to be a lawyer (you're one of those 'love of the law' type folks,) you *really* need to thoroughly discover what "being a lawyer" is, particularly when you're not coming out of top schools. Being a lawyer is a job like any other job. Personally, I don't tend to understand the non-monetary aspects that some people consider. But the great majority of people who want to go into the law for non-monetary reasons are seriously mistaken about what the lawyer's life entails, and end up being bitterly dissapointed.




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