Suffolk Law grad,127K debt,jobless,living at home, taking Qs

[lawgod]

Suffolkscrewed,you did what you did. I certainly wouldn't have recommended such as expensive school such as Suffolk especially incurring that amount of debt. It is a done situation however.The point is not to belabor your situation with misery but to come up with alternatives. Posting here will just garner you a lot of sympathy, which I don't think is something that you need or should be getting.

What area(s) of law do you like and are good at? For example, if you liked and were good at tax, I would recommend getting a masters in tax. I get that it requires more expenditures,but you could get a job with tax even if it with a national accounting firm.

Have you looked into the government? In usajob.com, there are usually legal positions advertised. Do you know anyone in the government that can help you? I personally know of two folks who got government legal jobs recently here in Wash DC. Have you looked into other job web sites for lawyers?
Firemed suggested to get training in a trade, which isn't a bad idea, although even those are dramatically affected by the real estate downturn.

Suffolk has a strong IP department. Did you take a lot of IP courses? If so, you can open up a practice and advertise great rates for patent and copyright work and/or litigation. Lots of people need this including folks like me. In fact, if you are particularly good at patent and copyright work and are cheap, I can use someone for a project or two.Volunteer to find freelance work.

Do you like bankruptcy? If so, you might be able to get a job in that area,which is booming. Contacting bankruptcy firms might garner you a position. Did you establish any relationship with professors? If so, they might have contacts. Tell everyone you know that you are looking for a legal job. Use your relationships to network as much as possible, even with friends that you made as an undergrad. Don't be shy about this. I would use the alumni network as much as possible by emailing them and going to alumni events.

Here are some other tips:
* Understand all of the opportunities available to you. Don't just contact large law firms. The key is to think outside the box.Every firm needs lawyers.There are LOTS of folks who want to litigate something but don't have the money to do so. Finding some good cases can get you on the road to self-employment.

* Learn to sell yourself. Being in the top 1/3 is quite good. You need to learn to express your skills succinctly and clearly and, most importantly, convincingly.
* Do you homework on companies and on recruiters. You should know what a company is doing now and where it is going and issues that they may be dealing with. Your goal is to meet their needs. This includes doing homework on any recruiters that you know or will be interviewing with. Check them out on facebook and linkedin (sp).
* Hit the road: As someone once said, don 't be afraid to simply show up at companies that you want to work with. Nobody can sell yourself like you can nor can a resume do you justice. Even companies that aren't advertising positions are always looking for good, dedicated , hard working employees. I have found that the younger generation hasn't learned the importance of personal relationships in business, which leaves many talented people wondering why they weren't hired. As someone said, "get out there and show them there is a person behind the resume."
* Be prepared for normal questions such as what are your weaknesses and why should be hire you.
Bottom line: Don't be disheartened. You just need some common sense and a lot of effort to get yourself situated.
* Use the time between jobs to keep existing skills fresh and develop new ones. Take some classes to improve your skills and is relavent to your field.
* Always send a thank you note by email
* Consider setting up a twitter account that you use professionally and follow human resource people at companies that interest you. Retweet what they write when it is good. After a few weeks of following them, send a message saying, "I'd love to talk about your company. It's a place that I am familiar with and want to work for and would love to hear about your experience there." Of course, if you get an interview, always learn as much about the company as possible including reading about them in Martindale-Hubble. Never badmouth a former boss, or co-worker or company or school.

Sorry for the wordiness. I am sure I will get flamed for all this. LOL
Good luck.

I am just an 0L, but is advising the guy to spend more money on another degree sage wisdom? I just took a bartending course with a guy who just graduated with a Tax LLM from Northwestern.

Yes, but where did he get his JD? Because if he went to a TT, and didn't get a job, so figured he'd boost that with a LLM from NU, that doesn't really work as well as some might think.

[taxguy]

naked dude asks,"I am just an 0L, but is advising the guy to spend more money on another degree sage wisdom? I just took a bartending course with a guy who just graduated with a Tax LLM from Northwestern."

Response: Accounting firms are always hiring tax professionals. I would bet that an LLM from Northwestern in tax would get him a job with one of the big 4 accounting firm if he did reasonably well. His problem,however, is that he might eventually have to take courses in order to site for the CPA,which would be a bummer while he is working full time. However, I think some of these firms will make someone a principal without having the CPA. Some research on this would be warranted.

[Patriot1208]

Should OP get an LLM:

[Mickey Quicknumbers]

Should OP get an LLM:

To be honest though, that graph was a LOT more accurate pre-ITE

[taxguy]

Should OP get an LLM:

To be honest though, that graph was a LOT more accurate pre-ITE

You only have to worry about where you get your LLM in tax if you want to work in big law. Otherwise, it won't matter. Thus, if you want to work with a big 4 accounting firm, they won't care where you got your LLM.

[Mickey Quicknumbers]

You only have to worry about where you get your LLM in tax if you want to work in big law. Otherwise, it won't matter. Thus, if you want to work with a big 4 accounting firm, they won't care where you got your LLM.

I won't contest you, because you're actually in the industry and I'm not, but a lot of research around (taxtalent etc.) has led me to believe that even big4 is only realistic from those 3 schools anymore, and less so Florida.

[NYC Law]

I've heard the TTTT JD -> Top School LLM route works for academia

[JusticeHarlan]

Doesn't a lot of hiring, especially outside of biglaw, not happen until you get your bar results back, or am I off on that? I thought that was one reason why 9-month out employment numbers were more of an indicator for a lot of schools that don't place a lot into biglaw.

Not arguing that the job market isn't bleak, of course, just wondering about the timing here and how things are supposed to work.

[094320]

..

[NYC Law]

We need gwuorbust for a proper going solo defense, but I believe he said something about malpractice insurance being cheaper if you're newer since the stakes aren't going to be very high.

[The Valkyrie]

Professional insurance really depends on practice area more than anything else.

[094320]

..

[dresden doll]

Starting your own practice when you have no formal legal experience and thus no training seems to be a move horribly ripe for malpractice.

Not to mention that it requires capital, which OP almost certainly does not have.

[cobrachailatte]

Sunynp, while I sympathize with your situation, I'd have to say that utilizing "Craiglist/my local newspaper" as your primary job search method isn't going to work. You're 26, which means you had at least a few years in between undergrad and LS; did you work?

You probably know that pounding the pavement and networking (Linkedin, local organizations, reaching out to former associates, alumni, etc, etc) is the very least you should be doing right now. Craigslist is great for buying a used bike which is probably stolen and/or meeting sociopaths, but if you want a job, especially in this economy, you're going to have to do more.

Also, have you figured out what your student loan payment (amortized over 25 years) is going to be, per month? You're living at home, most likely rentless, and I'm sure a JD can figure out a way to make 800-1000/month in that thing called the private sector (re: get a job, buddy) to cover the student loan payment until you find your first legal gig.

With all that said, I'm 99% sure this is an unoriginal troll attempt.

[beach_terror]

Out of curiosity did you finish 1L at ~33% or did you finish lower than that and boost your GPA up during 2L/3L?

[yo!]

As a former sheet metal worker, I can tell you not to take this advice. The myth that "welders make a ton of money" is just as untrue as the myth that all lawyers are rich. There are certainly people who work their asses off for years and make some money out of it, but they are few and farther between. My dad busted his ass, moved into management, and will clear 100K for the first time this year. It took him nearly 30 years in the business to do it, and 95%+ of the people who start as welders will never come anywhere near his salary.

Junior college nursing programs are all but impossible to get into. At least on the west coast, they are not merit based, but rather a lottery. I know of people who waited 10 years and still haven't gotten in. The schools often have like 50x as many applicants as seats. Physician assistant programs are extremely competitive, and they are extremely expensive if you manage to get in. I wouldn't recommend taking on more debt. The EMT route isn't that bad. My wife started out doing that, eventually became a Paramedic, and now makes $25/hr. They aren't exactly handing these jobs out though. Expect a job search comparable to what you are facing in the legal market.

You've got a law degree, keep trying to find a way to use it. If I were in your shoes, I'd try going solo for a year. Best of luck to you.

Maybe it is where you are. I did base most of my advice off the situation in my own town (so easy to generalize, isn't it?)... so yeah, YMMV.

I have to say that I have a friend who makes $20/hr doing sheet metal. I have another who makes nearly $25/hr doing welding. The nursing programs at the CCs in my state are easy to get in to. PA programs are ridiculously competitive, I will admit, but only cost about $80K- which is basically your starting salary. And getting a job as an EMT in my state is as easy as proving you have a license and an IQ above room temp. But we don't pay our medics $25/hr either.

I guess what you need to do is try to get a legal job first... but if you can't, then find out who in your area is hiring and in what fields and start working on that.

In any case I would have to say I think going solo right out of LS is a very bad idea for 95% (or more) of new grads. I had a friend who tried that and bombed, and I have yet to hear a success story anywhere about someone doing this.


ETA: nursing, PA, EMS, etc all provide you with a chance to go on the ten year discharge public service IBR plan, which is part of why I recommended them. It would suck for 10 years (but not horribly because of IBR) and then the law school debt would be gone.

These salaries are probably accurrate for someone relatively experienced in the trade. In California, you can actually make like $40 or more per hour if you get hooked up with the right union, and don't mind commuting to the bay area (or paying the ridiculous cost of living.) But hese jobs are difficult to get and hold onto for inexperienced people, since merit means nothing in the metal unions, everything is based on seniority. If you manage to get in, you'll likely be employed when work is busy (read: rarely) and sitting on your ass for the rest of the time. I could find a job making $20 per hour pretty easily, but I worked in the trade for 8 years. Decent paying jobs in the metal industry are tough to get, like anything else in this economy. Sure, you can make 40-60K per year with some experience, but you paid for the law degree; at least make a good attempt to get some use out of it.

If you can actually get into physican's asst school, go for it. My wife is applying to the program at UC Davis; the acceptance rate is roughly 5%. So I'll go back on what I said about taking the extra debt. If you manage to get in, taking the extra debt is probably a good call.

As for the paramedic pay, it fluctuates like crazy around here. I've heard of some non-union medics making 12/hr. It depends on the union, whether you take ALS calls, etc. My wife is incredibly lucky to have been hired as an EMT for a high-paying ambulance company before the economy took a shit. She was only hired as a medic because she had worked there for a couple years as an EMT. They haven't hired a medic off the street since 2008.

Looking into another field would have been a great idea before forking out the 127k, but you've already done it. At least give yourself a few months after bar results before giving up on becomming a lawyer.

[firemed]

These salaries are probably accurrate for someone relatively experienced in the trade. In California, you can actually make like $40 or more per hour if you get hooked up with the right union, and don't mind commuting to the bay area (or paying the ridiculous cost of living.) But hese jobs are difficult to get and hold onto for inexperienced people, since merit means nothing in the metal unions, everything is based on seniority. If you manage to get in, you'll likely be employed when work is busy (read: rarely) and sitting on your ass for the rest of the time. I could find a job making $20 per hour pretty easily, but I worked in the trade for 8 years. Decent paying jobs in the metal industry are tough to get, like anything else in this economy. Sure, you can make 40-60K per year with some experience, but you paid for the law degree; at least make a good attempt to get some use out of it.

If you can actually get into physican's asst school, go for it. My wife is applying to the program at UC Davis; the acceptance rate is roughly 5%. So I'll go back on what I said about taking the extra debt. If you manage to get in, taking the extra debt is probably a good call.

As for the paramedic pay, it fluctuates like crazy around here. I've heard of some non-union medics making 12/hr. It depends on the union, whether you take ALS calls, etc. My wife is incredibly lucky to have been hired as an EMT for a high-paying ambulance company before the economy took a shit. She was only hired as a medic because she had worked there for a couple years as an EMT. They haven't hired a medic off the street since 2008.

Looking into another field would have been a great idea before forking out the 127k, but you've already done it. At least give yourself a few months after bar results before giving up on becomming a lawyer.

Yeah, I definitely should have made it very clear that doing any of my suggestions BEFORE trying to get legal work would be stupid. OP (or anyone in his/her situation) needs to try to get legal work first, for sure.


ETA: my wife was going to go to PA school, but is going to medical school instead- higher pay, more satisfaction, and just as importantly she would have about 5 times the chance to get in (local MD program lets in 50% of in-state apps, as opposed to the two PA programs which let in less than 20% in one case and 10% in the other).

[Emma.]

These salaries are probably accurrate for someone relatively experienced in the trade. In California, you can actually make like $40 or more per hour if you get hooked up with the right union, and don't mind commuting to the bay area (or paying the ridiculous cost of living.) But hese jobs are difficult to get and hold onto for inexperienced people, since merit means nothing in the metal unions, everything is based on seniority. If you manage to get in, you'll likely be employed when work is busy (read: rarely) and sitting on your ass for the rest of the time. I could find a job making $20 per hour pretty easily, but I worked in the trade for 8 years. Decent paying jobs in the metal industry are tough to get, like anything else in this economy. Sure, you can make 40-60K per year with some experience, but you paid for the law degree; at least make a good attempt to get some use out of it.

If you can actually get into physican's asst school, go for it. My wife is applying to the program at UC Davis; the acceptance rate is roughly 5%. So I'll go back on what I said about taking the extra debt. If you manage to get in, taking the extra debt is probably a good call.

As for the paramedic pay, it fluctuates like crazy around here. I've heard of some non-union medics making 12/hr. It depends on the union, whether you take ALS calls, etc. My wife is incredibly lucky to have been hired as an EMT for a high-paying ambulance company before the economy took a shit. She was only hired as a medic because she had worked there for a couple years as an EMT. They haven't hired a medic off the street since 2008.

Looking into another field would have been a great idea before forking out the 127k, but you've already done it. At least give yourself a few months after bar results before giving up on becomming a lawyer.

Yeah, I definitely should have made it very clear that doing any of my suggestions BEFORE trying to get legal work would be stupid. OP (or anyone in his/her situation) needs to try to get legal work first, for sure.

Paramedic work is awesome if you can work for a fire department, but those jobs are extremely competitive in many parts of the country. You might end up stuck working for a shitty private ambulance company and posting up in parking lots all night for $15/hr.

PA jobs can be sweet but there are an awful lot of PAs out there working 50-60 hour weeks for $65K.

Personally I'd recommend radiology tech school. 2 years of school, $90K job with decent hours.

Honestly if it is at all an option for OP I'd likely be looking at OCS. If your vision is still good enough after 3 years of law school you could go into flight training with the Navy. Baller.

[yo!]

These salaries are probably accurrate for someone relatively experienced in the trade. In California, you can actually make like $40 or more per hour if you get hooked up with the right union, and don't mind commuting to the bay area (or paying the ridiculous cost of living.) But hese jobs are difficult to get and hold onto for inexperienced people, since merit means nothing in the metal unions, everything is based on seniority. If you manage to get in, you'll likely be employed when work is busy (read: rarely) and sitting on your ass for the rest of the time. I could find a job making $20 per hour pretty easily, but I worked in the trade for 8 years. Decent paying jobs in the metal industry are tough to get, like anything else in this economy. Sure, you can make 40-60K per year with some experience, but you paid for the law degree; at least make a good attempt to get some use out of it.

If you can actually get into physican's asst school, go for it. My wife is applying to the program at UC Davis; the acceptance rate is roughly 5%. So I'll go back on what I said about taking the extra debt. If you manage to get in, taking the extra debt is probably a good call.

As for the paramedic pay, it fluctuates like crazy around here. I've heard of some non-union medics making 12/hr. It depends on the union, whether you take ALS calls, etc. My wife is incredibly lucky to have been hired as an EMT for a high-paying ambulance company before the economy took a shit. She was only hired as a medic because she had worked there for a couple years as an EMT. They haven't hired a medic off the street since 2008.

Looking into another field would have been a great idea before forking out the 127k, but you've already done it. At least give yourself a few months after bar results before giving up on becomming a lawyer.

Yeah, I definitely should have made it very clear that doing any of my suggestions BEFORE trying to get legal work would be stupid. OP (or anyone in his/her situation) needs to try to get legal work first, for sure.

Paramedic work is awesome if you can work for a fire department, but those jobs are extremely competitive in many parts of the country. You might end up stuck working for a shitty private ambulance company and posting up in parking lots all night for $15/hr.

PA jobs can be sweet but there are an awful lot of PAs out there working 50-60 hour weeks for $65K.

Personally I'd recommend radiology tech school. 2 years of school, $90K job with decent hours.

Honestly if it is at all an option for OP I'd likely be looking at OCS. If your vision is still good enough after 3 years of law school you could go into flight training with the Navy. Baller.

This is credited. If I were in OPs situation, I would:

1) spend a year putting my best effort into either getting a legal job or starting up a solo crim defense practice.
2) Try to get into OCS. 10 years in the military and the debt will wash away.
3) If all else fails, hit up local police departments. They will value the law degree. You'll have to convince them that you won't take off if an attorney job becomes available, but I think it's doable. Most departments will pay like 5% more for each degree you have. You'll start out at 10% above base salary. Keep in mind though, these jobs are scarce, like everything else. But most importantly, this job won't require any more school (aside from the police academy, which many departments will pay for.)

My point: Forget taking a shitty paralegal job. You're only putting yourself in a rut which you may never get out of. I'd sooner flee the country then be stuck as a paralegal with a law degree.

[yo!]

We need gwuorbust for a proper going solo defense, but I believe he said something about malpractice insurance being cheaper if you're newer since the stakes aren't going to be very high.

If you're newer or if you're completely brand new? Imo there's a difference between hanging a shingle after practicing at a firm for a year or two versus straight out with no firm experience other than a summer SA.

If you're straight out of school, the insurance is dirt cheap. It seems counterintuitive, but the rationale is that the more experience you acquire, the more clients you have in your past. Clients that might be looking to sue. Because of the lag time between the commission of the malparactice and the time you are sued, it's highly unlikely that you will be sued within the first year or so of practice.

[094320]

..

[flexityflex86]

I don't assume OP did anything wrong or has any personality deficiencies that would impede job placement.

OP just went to a shity law school in a shity economy. Top third shows that OP does have some intelligence. Going back to school may not be a total waste of $ if OP can go for much less than 127k in a field where having a JD can provide some kind of a benefit. Maybe OP can take science classes, and work on the patent bar?

OP should look at starting a firm as an absolute last resort for the aforementioned risks involved, but i for one think it is smarter for OP to start practicing solo than doing absolutely nothing or working as a legal assistant/paralegal where he is basically accepting a 127k loss.

OP's chances of starting a successful solo practice might be less than 25%, but OP's chances of finding gainful legal employment after an extensive paralegal stint are under 10%. The skills one develops when starting a small business, even one that fails are vast and cannot be put into words. I'm not saying this is TCR, but I'd rank OP's career options like this:

1.) Speak to your school ASAP - maybe they offer one of those programs where they pay employers to try you out (or you can convince them this is a good idea [worked for Duke and SMU]).

2.) Try harder to find employment, even temp employment where maybe you can impress your employers. Literally show up at firms. You'll get a lot of no's, but people won't think you're nuts - they'll understand, and at least respect your drive.

3.) Show up to more firms, more cold calls, keep doing it again and again and again. Make this your f/t job.

4.) Do you have any other non-legal skills?

5.) Any cheap/free degrees in useful fields you can get?

6.) Start a practice.

[FeelTheHeat]

I feel like the mTal bomb for this topic is ticking.

[yo!]

We need gwuorbust for a proper going solo defense, but I believe he said something about malpractice insurance being cheaper if you're newer since the stakes aren't going to be very high.

If you're newer or if you're completely brand new? Imo there's a difference between hanging a shingle after practicing at a firm for a year or two versus straight out with no firm experience other than a summer SA.

If you're straight out of school, the insurance is dirt cheap. It seems counterintuitive, but the rationale is that the more experience you acquire, the more clients you have in your past. Clients that might be looking to sue. Because of the lag time between the commission of the malparactice and the time you are sued, it's highly unlikely that you will be sued within the first year or so of practice.

I see. Thanks for the info, though it still seems like a bad idea.

It's certainly not ideal. But if my choices were to become a paralegal/full time doc reviewer or attempt to start a solo practice, I'd chose the solo practice 10 times out of 10. The likelihood of paying off the debt off is low with those jobs anyway, and hell, at least with the solo practice I could say that I tried.

[firemed]

I feel like the mTal bomb for this topic is ticking.

Yeah... I am surprised he isn't in here yet....