Suffolk Law grad,127K debt,jobless,living at home, taking Qs

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USAO-vet
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Re: Suffolk Law grad,127K debt,jobless,living at home, taking Qs

Postby USAO-vet » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:05 pm

Grow some balls, pass the bar and hang out a shingle if you haven't found a job (as an attorney) by then. It is absolutely inane to take a position as a paralegal when you're a lawyer. There are several paralegals with law degrees in my office. In fact, we just hired a legal assistant wish a JD. These individual have little to no hope of becoming practicing attorneys by taking such a track. Most of the know-it-all, "big law of bust", wannabes on here will ridicule this advice, and some for good reason. It will be difficult to attract clients when you first start, but if you are a diligent advocate and have a little business savvy you could build yourself a decent practice. Much better than taking a position that will likely never lead to actually practicing law.

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ThomasMN
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Re: Suffolk Law grad,127K debt,jobless,living at home, taking Qs

Postby ThomasMN » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:07 pm

OP is young enough to go to OCS and get commissioned. Of course that also means that OP better be in good physical condition, no medical defects, etc.

thederangedwang
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Re: Suffolk Law grad,127K debt,jobless,living at home, taking Qs

Postby thederangedwang » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:34 pm

USAO-vet wrote:Grow some balls, pass the bar and hang out a shingle if you haven't found a job (as an attorney) by then. It is absolutely inane to take a position as a paralegal when you're a lawyer. There are several paralegals with law degrees in my office. In fact, we just hired a legal assistant wish a JD. These individual have little to no hope of becoming practicing attorneys by taking such a track. Most of the know-it-all, "big law of bust", wannabes on here will ridicule this advice, and some for good reason. It will be difficult to attract clients when you first start, but if you are a diligent advocate and have a little business savvy you could build yourself a decent practice. Much better than taking a position that will likely never lead to actually practicing law.

.....wow....

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loblaw
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Re: Suffolk Law grad,127K debt,jobless,living at home, taking Qs

Postby loblaw » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:04 pm

USAO-vet wrote:Grow some balls, pass the bar and hang out a shingle if you haven't found a job (as an attorney) by then. It is absolutely inane to take a position as a paralegal when you're a lawyer. There are several paralegals with law degrees in my office. In fact, we just hired a legal assistant wish a JD. These individual have little to no hope of becoming practicing attorneys by taking such a track. Most of the know-it-all, "big law of bust", wannabes on here will ridicule this advice, and some for good reason. It will be difficult to attract clients when you first start, but if you are a diligent advocate and have a little business savvy you could build yourself a decent practice. Much better than taking a position that will likely never lead to actually practicing law.


This post is seething with herp and derp.

merc280
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Re: Suffolk Law grad,127K debt,jobless,living at home, taking Qs

Postby merc280 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:11 pm

loblaw wrote:
USAO-vet wrote:Grow some balls, pass the bar and hang out a shingle if you haven't found a job (as an attorney) by then. It is absolutely inane to take a position as a paralegal when you're a lawyer. There are several paralegals with law degrees in my office. In fact, we just hired a legal assistant wish a JD. These individual have little to no hope of becoming practicing attorneys by taking such a track. Most of the know-it-all, "big law of bust", wannabes on here will ridicule this advice, and some for good reason. It will be difficult to attract clients when you first start, but if you are a diligent advocate and have a little business savvy you could build yourself a decent practice. Much better than taking a position that will likely never lead to actually practicing law.


This post is seething with herp and derp.



Might be the push he needs. It's hard on the brain to be put through constant bad news.

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loblaw
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Re: Suffolk Law grad,127K debt,jobless,living at home, taking Qs

Postby loblaw » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:18 pm

merc280 wrote:
loblaw wrote:
USAO-vet wrote:Grow some balls, pass the bar and hang out a shingle if you haven't found a job (as an attorney) by then. It is absolutely inane to take a position as a paralegal when you're a lawyer. There are several paralegals with law degrees in my office. In fact, we just hired a legal assistant wish a JD. These individual have little to no hope of becoming practicing attorneys by taking such a track. Most of the know-it-all, "big law of bust", wannabes on here will ridicule this advice, and some for good reason. It will be difficult to attract clients when you first start, but if you are a diligent advocate and have a little business savvy you could build yourself a decent practice. Much better than taking a position that will likely never lead to actually practicing law.


This post is seething with herp and derp.



Might be the push he needs. It's hard on the brain to be put through constant bad news.


I just can't see how the right answer here can include taking on even more debt with an even greater risk than even attending the TTTT to start with. At least he could save money at the para job and get a little bit out of the hole first before taking on more debt or attempting to practice law out of mom and dad's basement. Assuming the kid lacks balls because he hasn't taken out more $$ after having gotten severely burnt by his last big risk doesn't seem right to me.

yo!
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Re: Suffolk Law grad,127K debt,jobless,living at home, taking Qs

Postby yo! » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:34 pm

firemed wrote:
Suffolkscrewed wrote:
Mickey Quicknumbers wrote:How long are you willing to look for a JD/bar required job before you start branching out to other field?


Until December. I have actually signed up to donate sperm (not kidding) and I have ben giving blood/plasma. I feel like I am going to be screwed for life. I just want to pay off my debt ASAP.


If you don't get a job by December I might recommend going to a CC and getting certified in a trade. Welding makes a lot of money, for instance. Sheet metal, auto mechanic, plumbing, electrician, etc.

Or you could try to get into healthcare, which is actively growing: nursing is big right now... and many CCs offer associate degrees in nursing for basically free these days. Or with your GPA if you like science then something like Physician Assistant could work. EMT-B isn't a hard cert to get (1 semester), and you can make $15 an hour driving an ambulance. If you are on the income based repayment it would still suck, but... you know...

Good luck homey.


As a former sheet metal worker, I can tell you not to take this advice. The myth that "welders make a ton of money" is just as untrue as the myth that all lawyers are rich. There are certainly people who work their asses off for years and make some money out of it, but they are few and farther between. My dad busted his ass, moved into management, and will clear 100K for the first time this year. It took him nearly 30 years in the business to do it, and 95%+ of the people who start as welders will never come anywhere near his salary.

Junior college nursing programs are all but impossible to get into. At least on the west coast, they are not merit based, but rather a lottery. I know of people who waited 10 years and still haven't gotten in. The schools often have like 50x as many applicants as seats. Physician assistant programs are extremely competitive, and they are extremely expensive if you manage to get in. I wouldn't recommend taking on more debt. The EMT route isn't that bad. My wife started out doing that, eventually became a Paramedic, and now makes $25/hr. They aren't exactly handing these jobs out though. Expect a job search comparable to what you are facing in the legal market.

You've got a law degree, keep trying to find a way to use it. If I were in your shoes, I'd try going solo for a year. Best of luck to you.

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bk1
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Re: Suffolk Law grad,127K debt,jobless,living at home, taking Qs

Postby bk1 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:43 pm

USAO-vet wrote:Grow some balls, pass the bar and hang out a shingle if you haven't found a job (as an attorney) by then. It is absolutely inane to take a position as a paralegal when you're a lawyer. There are several paralegals with law degrees in my office. In fact, we just hired a legal assistant wish a JD. These individual have little to no hope of becoming practicing attorneys by taking such a track. Most of the know-it-all, "big law of bust", wannabes on here will ridicule this advice, and some for good reason. It will be difficult to attract clients when you first start, but if you are a diligent advocate and have a little business savvy you could build yourself a decent practice. Much better than taking a position that will likely never lead to actually practicing law.

It is ridiculously awful advice and here's the good reason for ridiculing it: the average person will pay off 127k debt faster by taking a paralegal position than hanging out their shingle right out of law school.

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NYC Law
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Re: Suffolk Law grad,127K debt,jobless,living at home, taking Qs

Postby NYC Law » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:54 pm

yo! wrote:As a former sheet metal worker, I can tell you not to take this advice. The myth that "welders make a ton of money" is just as untrue as the myth that all lawyers are rich. There are certainly people who work their asses off for years and make some money out of it, but they are few and farther between. My dad busted his ass, moved into management, and will clear 100K for the first time this year. It took him nearly 30 years in the business to do it, and 95%+ of the people who start as welders will never come anywhere near his salary.

Junior college nursing programs are all but impossible to get into. At least on the west coast, they are not merit based, but rather a lottery. I know of people who waited 10 years and still haven't gotten in. The schools often have like 50x as many applicants as seats. Physician assistant programs are extremely competitive, and they are extremely expensive if you manage to get in. I wouldn't recommend taking on more debt. The EMT route isn't that bad. My wife started out doing that, eventually became a Paramedic, and now makes $25/hr. They aren't exactly handing these jobs out though. Expect a job search comparable to what you are facing in the legal market.

You've got a law degree, keep trying to find a way to use it. If I were in your shoes, I'd try going solo for a year. Best of luck to you.


There always has to be that downer who debunks the myth that the rest of the world outside of law isn't peaches and ice cream.

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Re: Suffolk Law grad,127K debt,jobless,living at home, taking Qs

Postby scammedhard » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:02 pm

The economy is bad, and in most fields people are struggling; no doubt about that. But there is a big difference between being jobless/underemployed and having little to no debt, and being jobless/underemployed and drowning in student loan debt (debt that is not even dischargeable under bankruptcy).

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Re: Suffolk Law grad,127K debt,jobless,living at home, taking Qs

Postby flexityflex86 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:06 pm

It is fascinating that 10 more points on the LSAT could have made his entire life different, and yet people will see this and still not take studying for the LSAT seriously then complain about how the world is unfair.

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Re: Suffolk Law grad,127K debt,jobless,living at home, taking Qs

Postby rayiner » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:06 pm

bk1 wrote:
USAO-vet wrote:Grow some balls, pass the bar and hang out a shingle if you haven't found a job (as an attorney) by then. It is absolutely inane to take a position as a paralegal when you're a lawyer. There are several paralegals with law degrees in my office. In fact, we just hired a legal assistant wish a JD. These individual have little to no hope of becoming practicing attorneys by taking such a track. Most of the know-it-all, "big law of bust", wannabes on here will ridicule this advice, and some for good reason. It will be difficult to attract clients when you first start, but if you are a diligent advocate and have a little business savvy you could build yourself a decent practice. Much better than taking a position that will likely never lead to actually practicing law.

It is ridiculously awful advice and here's the good reason for ridiculing it: the average person will pay off 127k debt faster by taking a paralegal position than hanging out their shingle right out of law school.


Paying off your debt is beta.

MrAnon
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Re: Suffolk Law grad,127K debt,jobless,living at home, taking Qs

Postby MrAnon » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:09 pm

Just hang out a shingle! People will flock to you for legal services, something everyone needs 2x per week, in a dying economy!

flexityflex86
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Re: Suffolk Law grad,127K debt,jobless,living at home, taking Qs

Postby flexityflex86 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:20 pm

MrAnon wrote:Just hang out a shingle! People will flock to you for legal services, something everyone needs 2x per week, in a dying economy!

Jose Baez did it. It could work if OP is good at law. Options are limited.

yo!
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Re: Suffolk Law grad,127K debt,jobless,living at home, taking Qs

Postby yo! » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:41 pm

scammedhard wrote:The economy is bad, and in most fields people are struggling; no doubt about that. But there is a big difference between being jobless/underemployed and having little to no debt, and being jobless/underemployed and drowning in student loan debt (debt that is not even dischargeable under bankruptcy).


I agree 100%. But that's completely unrelated to OP's predicament. He already has the debt, so advising him to become a blue collar worker is a bit useless at this point.

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scrowell
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Re: Suffolk Law grad,127K debt,jobless,living at home, taking Qs

Postby scrowell » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:44 pm

Don't give up man, you graduated 2 months ago! It's not time to panic yet. I'm sure you'll find something decent if you put your heart into it.

flexityflex86
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Re: Suffolk Law grad,127K debt,jobless,living at home, taking Qs

Postby flexityflex86 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:54 pm

scrowell wrote:Don't give up man, you graduated 2 months ago! It's not time to panic yet. I'm sure you'll find something decent if you put your heart into it.

Yeah, the only guy I know who is completely screwed is my girlfriend's brother who went to a TTTT, was middle of the class, is very passive and a nice guy/very knowledgeable guy but an interviewer would find him weird. He is also not really the go getting type as his parents basically support him, and paid for his degree. Other people from regional schools I know at least got something somewhere eventually. You were top 3rd at a tier 2. You aren't going to get 6 figures, but somebody has to have a use for you somewhere....

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Re: Suffolk Law grad,127K debt,jobless,living at home, taking Qs

Postby firemed » Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:05 am

yo! wrote:
As a former sheet metal worker, I can tell you not to take this advice. The myth that "welders make a ton of money" is just as untrue as the myth that all lawyers are rich. There are certainly people who work their asses off for years and make some money out of it, but they are few and farther between. My dad busted his ass, moved into management, and will clear 100K for the first time this year. It took him nearly 30 years in the business to do it, and 95%+ of the people who start as welders will never come anywhere near his salary.

Junior college nursing programs are all but impossible to get into. At least on the west coast, they are not merit based, but rather a lottery. I know of people who waited 10 years and still haven't gotten in. The schools often have like 50x as many applicants as seats. Physician assistant programs are extremely competitive, and they are extremely expensive if you manage to get in. I wouldn't recommend taking on more debt. The EMT route isn't that bad. My wife started out doing that, eventually became a Paramedic, and now makes $25/hr. They aren't exactly handing these jobs out though. Expect a job search comparable to what you are facing in the legal market.

You've got a law degree, keep trying to find a way to use it. If I were in your shoes, I'd try going solo for a year. Best of luck to you.


Maybe it is where you are. I did base most of my advice off the situation in my own town (so easy to generalize, isn't it?)... so yeah, YMMV.

I have to say that I have a friend who makes $20/hr doing sheet metal. I have another who makes nearly $25/hr doing welding. The nursing programs at the CCs in my state are easy to get in to. PA programs are ridiculously competitive, I will admit, but only cost about $80K- which is basically your starting salary. And getting a job as an EMT in my state is as easy as proving you have a license and an IQ above room temp. But we don't pay our medics $25/hr either.

I guess what you need to do is try to get a legal job first... but if you can't, then find out who in your area is hiring and in what fields and start working on that.

In any case I would have to say I think going solo right out of LS is a very bad idea for 95% (or more) of new grads. I had a friend who tried that and bombed, and I have yet to hear a success story anywhere about someone doing this.


ETA: nursing, PA, EMS, etc all provide you with a chance to go on the ten year discharge public service IBR plan, which is part of why I recommended them. It would suck for 10 years (but not horribly because of IBR) and then the law school debt would be gone.

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The Valkyrie
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Re: Suffolk Law grad,127K debt,jobless,living at home, taking Qs

Postby The Valkyrie » Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:33 am

Working as a solo without any practical experience at a firm learning from other lawyers is very hard. It will also be very difficult to get malpractice insurance, and if you can get it, it will be muy expensive. Some local bars have mentor programs on a volunteer basis where more seasoned lawyers will answer your questions, provide you with good forms, etc. Please do something like that if you do solo work.

Good luck, I feel for you. I'm unemployed at the moment.

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lisjjen
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Re: Suffolk Law grad,127K debt,jobless,living at home, taking Qs

Postby lisjjen » Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:12 am

First of all, thanks for being honest and fielding these questions. My question is, when you said earlier in the thread that you felt a little misled by your university's statistics and material, what exactly did you read and what exactly did they tell you that made you feel secure? I'm about to go into the same amount of debt as you. Though I am headed to a T14 (kinda) I still have read plenty of threads on TLS from T6 grads who aren't finding work.

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Errzii
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Re: Suffolk Law grad,127K debt,jobless,living at home, taking Qs

Postby Errzii » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:32 am

lisjjen wrote:First of all, thanks for being honest and fielding these questions. My question is, when you said earlier in the thread that you felt a little misled by your university's statistics and material, what exactly did you read and what exactly did they tell you that made you feel secure? I'm about to go into the same amount of debt as you. Though I am headed to a T14 (kinda) I still have read plenty of threads on TLS from T6 grads who aren't finding work.


I was wondering the same thing. Maybe he was referring to the employment data on their site?
http://law.suffolk.edu/offices/career/d ... rvey09.pdf

taxguy
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Re: Suffolk Law grad,127K debt,jobless,living at home, taking Qs

Postby taxguy » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:01 am

I recommend that you really read over my post noted above on July 30. Also, what is wrong about putting an ad in the paper saying, "Do you need an really affordable lawyer?" Working from your home, you can charge 60-$80 an hour or even more and get tons of folks to flock to you and make plenty of money! If you do litigation, you could also advertise that the case can be free based on contingency and charge less than most litigation firms. I would offer a free one hour initial consultation. If it is a very promising tort case, you could take a contingent fee of 25% if settled out of court and 30% if it goes to court. I have always felt that there would be a HUGE demand for lawyers who aren't piggy and who try to appeal to the middle class. If you need secretarial work, there are plenty of folks who will do this for you on a temp basis. If you feel comfortable doing criminal representation or divorce mediation, you can submit your name to the local district court for you to be called for these needs.

If you need an office outside of your home, you can rent a business incubater that has a receptionist, a fully furnished office, access to a conference room and access to other equipment such as copiers and faxes.
I have been using an IP firm that charges me $250 and hour and up. I would kill for a competant lawyer who can do IP for much less per hour; moreover, there are many other business folks like me who would do the same. The key is that you have to "fake it till you make it." Don't act like you don't know what you are doing or that you are brand new.

Obviously, this assumes that you got some indepth training in some particular area at Suffolk such as IP or litigation or tax etc. If not, then my post on Jul 30th noted above would be more applicable.

Just something to think about..
Last edited by taxguy on Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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sunynp
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Re: Suffolk Law grad,127K debt,jobless,living at home, taking Qs

Postby sunynp » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:45 am

This is great advice if OP actually had any experience practicing law. I don't think you would take advice for free if it was from someone who has no experience. New lawyers with no experience are at a huge risk for committing malpractice. And, of course, OP has to pass the bar.

However, there may be limited areas that OP could practice to make money. I am not saying that OP cannot figure out a way to get his own practice going and earn some cash. If OP goes this route he should utilize every resource for new lawyers that his bar association(s) offers. OP needs to make contacts with current practicing attorneys to get advice.

Finally, OP started this thread to give advice.

OP - what have you looked into regarding IBR, deferrals or forbearance on your loans? Have you been in touch with anyone about your loan repayment? Do you have private or gov't loans?

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robotclubmember
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Re: Suffolk Law grad,127K debt,jobless,living at home, taking Qs

Postby robotclubmember » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:37 am

flexityflex86 wrote:It is fascinating that 10 more points on the LSAT could have made his entire life different, and yet people will see this and still not take studying for the LSAT seriously then complain about how the world is unfair.


+9000

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Naked Dude
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Re: Suffolk Law grad,127K debt,jobless,living at home, taking Qs

Postby Naked Dude » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:38 am

taxguy wrote:Suffolkscrewed,you did what you did. I certainly wouldn't have recommended such as expensive school such as Suffolk especially incurring that amount of debt. It is a done situation however.The point is not to belabor your situation with misery but to come up with alternatives. Posting here will just garner you a lot of sympathy, which I don't think is something that you need or should be getting.

What area(s) of law do you like and are good at? For example, if you liked and were good at tax, I would recommend getting a masters in tax. I get that it requires more expenditures,but you could get a job with tax even if it with a national accounting firm.

Have you looked into the government? In usajob.com, there are usually legal positions advertised. Do you know anyone in the government that can help you? I personally know of two folks who got government legal jobs recently here in Wash DC. Have you looked into other job web sites for lawyers?
Firemed suggested to get training in a trade, which isn't a bad idea, although even those are dramatically affected by the real estate downturn.

Suffolk has a strong IP department. Did you take a lot of IP courses? If so, you can open up a practice and advertise great rates for patent and copyright work and/or litigation. Lots of people need this including folks like me. In fact, if you are particularly good at patent and copyright work and are cheap, I can use someone for a project or two.Volunteer to find freelance work.

Do you like bankruptcy? If so, you might be able to get a job in that area,which is booming. Contacting bankruptcy firms might garner you a position. Did you establish any relationship with professors? If so, they might have contacts. Tell everyone you know that you are looking for a legal job. Use your relationships to network as much as possible, even with friends that you made as an undergrad. Don't be shy about this. I would use the alumni network as much as possible by emailing them and going to alumni events.

Here are some other tips:
* Understand all of the opportunities available to you. Don't just contact large law firms. The key is to think outside the box.Every firm needs lawyers.There are LOTS of folks who want to litigate something but don't have the money to do so. Finding some good cases can get you on the road to self-employment.

* Learn to sell yourself. Being in the top 1/3 is quite good. You need to learn to express your skills succinctly and clearly and, most importantly, convincingly.
* Do you homework on companies and on recruiters. You should know what a company is doing now and where it is going and issues that they may be dealing with. Your goal is to meet their needs. This includes doing homework on any recruiters that you know or will be interviewing with. Check them out on facebook and linkedin (sp).
* Hit the road: As someone once said, don 't be afraid to simply show up at companies that you want to work with. Nobody can sell yourself like you can nor can a resume do you justice. Even companies that aren't advertising positions are always looking for good, dedicated , hard working employees. I have found that the younger generation hasn't learned the importance of personal relationships in business, which leaves many talented people wondering why they weren't hired. As someone said, "get out there and show them there is a person behind the resume."
* Be prepared for normal questions such as what are your weaknesses and why should be hire you.
Bottom line: Don't be disheartened. You just need some common sense and a lot of effort to get yourself situated.
* Use the time between jobs to keep existing skills fresh and develop new ones. Take some classes to improve your skills and is relavent to your field.
* Always send a thank you note by email
* Consider setting up a twitter account that you use professionally and follow human resource people at companies that interest you. Retweet what they write when it is good. After a few weeks of following them, send a message saying, "I'd love to talk about your company. It's a place that I am familiar with and want to work for and would love to hear about your experience there." Of course, if you get an interview, always learn as much about the company as possible including reading about them in Martindale-Hubble. Never badmouth a former boss, or co-worker or company or school.

Sorry for the wordiness. I am sure I will get flamed for all this. LOL
Good luck.


I am just an 0L, but is advising the guy to spend more money on another degree sage wisdom? I just took a bartending course with a guy who just graduated with a Tax LLM from Northwestern.




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