Science/Engineering have higher GPA's than Humanities

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thederangedwang
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Science/Engineering have higher GPA's than Humanities

Postby thederangedwang » Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:29 pm

Hear me out. Obviously common knowledge is that being a hard science major means that you have a harder time getting a good gpa, although this is true generally, I feel this isnt true when we start talking about the brightest of the bright

At my school at least, science/math majors dominate in the 4.0+ gpa category (yes, my school gives out 4.33 A+) simply because if you get a 100 on a test, you get an A+. The exceptionally brilliant are able to do that, and so we have absurd gpa's like 4.22 or 4.25 at my school. (this one kid at my school has the 4.25 and is a double major in comp sci and mech eng...he showed me his transcript, it was ridiculous)

However, humanities majors at my school top out at around 4.0 simply because grading papers are subjective and many professors don't give out A+ on papers, no matter how brilliant.

I guess my question is, do you think adcomms know about this? That, humanities majors are actually at a disadvantage gpa wise when it gets closer and closer to 4.0 and higher?

bhan87
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Re: Science/Engineering have higher GPA's than Humanities

Postby bhan87 » Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:34 pm

The problem with your argument is the difficulty of getting an A in Humanities and an A in Engineering are nowhere near equivalent. In terms of difficulty, I would think that getting an A+, A, A-, B+, or B in a hard science major would be more difficult than getting an A in a Humanities major. It's not that the engineers have any advantage at all, because the chances are they'll probably be getting grades lower than the average humanities major.

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Re: Science/Engineering have higher GPA's than Humanities

Postby thederangedwang » Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:40 pm

bhan87 wrote:The problem with your argument is the difficulty of getting an A in Humanities and an A in Engineering are nowhere near equivalent. In terms of difficulty, I would think that getting an A+, A, A-, B+, or B in a hard science major would be more difficult than getting an A in a Humanities major. It's not that the engineers have any advantage at all, because the chances are they'll probably be getting grades lower than the average humanities major.


You misunderstand my point. Assuming that the science major is EXCEPTIONALLY brilliant (he/she is capable of getting 4.0 in science major) then he/she will have a better chance of getting 4.0+ than the equally exceptional humanities major.

In science, there is no GPA ceiling (a 100 on a test is a A+), but in humanities, there may be a ceiling (some professors just dont give out A+ on papers).

WestOfTheRest
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Re: Science/Engineering have higher GPA's than Humanities

Postby WestOfTheRest » Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:44 pm

Why does it matter? if you are exceptionally brilliant you will likely have a GPA that adcomms don't care to distinguish betwee.

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Cupidity
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Re: Science/Engineering have higher GPA's than Humanities

Postby Cupidity » Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:51 pm

Your reasoning is flamingly flawed in that it premised on the idea that 1) engineering coursework is entirely objective and therefore completely masterable by the hypothetical "bright student; and 2) humanities coursework is graded too subjectively to result in consistent grades.

Engineering majors often have several workshop, lab, and team project components. Unless you are both bright and incredibly dextrous and have equally bright partners, your intelligence alone is insufficient to guarantee an A+.

You probably don't understand much about humanities, while you seem to think its graded subjectively, do you think it is coincidental that at my school's philosophy department, which was curved, that the same students got the A's on everything?

I also disagree with the premise that humanities are necessarily easier than math. Anyone can learn math. Not everyone can philosophize successfully.

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Re: Science/Engineering have higher GPA's than Humanities

Postby chem » Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:53 pm

Cupidity wrote:Your reasoning is flamingly flawed in that it premised on the idea that 1) engineering coursework is entirely objective and therefore completely masterable by the hypothetical "bright student; and 2) humanities coursework is graded too subjectively to result in consistent grades.

Engineering majors often have several workshop, lab, and team project components. Unless you are both bright and incredibly dextrous and have equally bright partners, your intelligence alone is insufficient to guarantee an A+.

You probably don't understand much about humanities, while you seem to think its graded subjectively, do you think it is coincidental that at my school's philosophy department, which was curved, that the same students got the A's on everything?

I also disagree with the premise that humanities are necessarily easier than math. Anyone can learn math. Not everyone can philosophize successfully.



Presumes without providing justification

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Cupidity
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Re: Science/Engineering have higher GPA's than Humanities

Postby Cupidity » Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:55 pm

chem wrote:
Cupidity wrote:Your reasoning is flamingly flawed in that it premised on the idea that 1) engineering coursework is entirely objective and therefore completely masterable by the hypothetical "bright student; and 2) humanities coursework is graded too subjectively to result in consistent grades.

Engineering majors often have several workshop, lab, and team project components. Unless you are both bright and incredibly dextrous and have equally bright partners, your intelligence alone is insufficient to guarantee an A+.

You probably don't understand much about humanities, while you seem to think its graded subjectively, do you think it is coincidental that at my school's philosophy department, which was curved, that the same students got the A's on everything?

I also disagree with the premise that humanities are necessarily easier than math. Anyone can learn math. Not everyone can philosophize successfully.



Presumes without providing justification


Touche'

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rinkrat19
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Re: Science/Engineering have higher GPA's than Humanities

Postby rinkrat19 » Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:58 pm

My math/science/engineering classes ranged from 'tricky' to 'fucking impossible.' Result: Mostly A's with a few B's and two hideous C's like open sores on my transcript.

My humanities classes ranged from 'I could do this while unconscious' to 'no, seriously, I could do this while unconscious; are they joking with this shit?' Result: All A's (no A+ at my school).

YMMV.

ETA: Granted, I didn't take a ton of upper-level humanities classes, because they weren't required for my major. But in the lower (including some 300-level, at least) classes, it was not the science/engineering majors struggling with forming a grammatically correct sentence or putting together a coherent thought about an economic theory or historical event. It was the humanities majors.

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Corwin
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Re: Science/Engineering have higher GPA's than Humanities

Postby Corwin » Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:17 pm

If the argument is that there are more >4.0 engineers than humanities majors I believe it. I had an A+ available for almost all of my engineering classes as an undergrad and no A+ available for most of my humanities classes. But your claim that this proves that humanities majors are at a GPA disadvantage doesn't follow from this fact. Such a thing would only matter for the exceptionally brilliant students, who will have high LSATs anyway and don't care about 4.0 versus 4.1.

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Re: Science/Engineering have higher GPA's than Humanities

Postby dkt4 » Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:20 pm

i wonder what papoose thinks about this.

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Re: Science/Engineering have higher GPA's than Humanities

Postby 23402385985 » Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:25 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:My math/science/engineering classes ranged from 'tricky' to 'fucking impossible.' Result: Mostly A's with a few B's and two hideous C's like open sores on my transcript.

My humanities classes ranged from 'I could do this while unconscious' to 'no, seriously, I could do this while unconscious; are they joking with this shit?' Result: All A's (no A+ at my school).

YMMV.

ETA: Granted, I didn't take a ton of upper-level humanities classes, because they weren't required for my major. But in the lower (including some 300-level, at least) classes, it was not the science/engineering majors struggling with forming a grammatically correct sentence or putting together a coherent thought about an economic theory or historical event. It was the humanities majors.


I had a minor in psych (ended up not completing it since I didn't feel like taking another class) to go with my Bio major / Chem minor. The upper level bio/chem classes can be pretty damn challenging, but the upper level humanities classes are just as much of a joke as the lower level ones. It's much, much harder to get an A in an upper level science class than it is in an upper level humanities class.

The material gets exponentially harder as you go up the ladder in the sciences but doesn't get drastically harder as you go up the ladder in the humanities. I think I was taught the same thing in various psych classes across the board, for fuck's sake.

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rayiner
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Re: Science/Engineering have higher GPA's than Humanities

Postby rayiner » Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:25 pm

Cupidity wrote:I also disagree with the premise that humanities are necessarily easier than math. Anyone can learn math. Not everyone can philosophize successfully.


Exactly the opposite.

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Re: Science/Engineering have higher GPA's than Humanities

Postby stowhat » Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:27 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:My math/science/engineering classes ranged from 'tricky' to 'fucking impossible.' Result: Mostly A's with a few B's and two hideous C's like open sores on my transcript.

My humanities classes ranged from 'I could do this while unconscious' to 'no, seriously, I could do this while unconscious; are they joking with this shit?' Result: All A's (no A+ at my school).


This. I have a science and a humanities degree. My humanities degree is almost a 4.0 and my science degree is barely above a 3.0. I didn't study and got all A's in my humanities classes. I worked myself into the ground for my science classes and got mostly B's/C's with some A's.

Sure, I'm not in this "exceptionally bright" group that you're talking about but I think in general it is much harder to get a good GPA with a science major. Most of those science/engineering kids with near perfect GPAs go to med school anyways.

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Re: Science/Engineering have higher GPA's than Humanities

Postby SchopenhauerFTW » Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:30 pm

rayiner wrote:
Cupidity wrote:I also disagree with the premise that humanities are necessarily easier than math. Anyone can learn math. Not everyone can philosophize successfully.


Exactly the opposite.

Actually, not everyone can 'learn to math.' But not everyone can philosophize successfully.

This thread is going places!

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Re: Science/Engineering have higher GPA's than Humanities

Postby senorhosh » Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:22 pm

thederangedwang wrote:You misunderstand my point. Assuming that the science major is EXCEPTIONALLY brilliant (he/she is capable of getting 4.0 in science major) then he/she will have a better chance of getting 4.0+ than the equally exceptional humanities major.

In science, there is no GPA ceiling (a 100 on a test is a A+), but in humanities, there may be a ceiling (some professors just dont give out A+ on papers).


I understand what you are saying. The base argument is not whether science or humanities major is more difficult to get an A/A+. It's talking how adcomms see humanities and science major GPAs for a very, very small % of the population.

Let's say there are two candidates: a 4.0 humanities and a 17x LSAT and a 4.0+ science with a 17x LSAT
Let's say you're the adcomm. Your argument is that the adcomms will see this and think 4.0 humanities was disadvantaged because his GPA was capped at 4.0. Who would you choose? You're argument is that the humanities is disadvantaged because he might be one of those "brightest of the bright" smart enough to get a 4.0+ in sciences. Then why not just choose the guy who already got a 4.0+ in science who showed that he was the "brightest of the bright"?
The 4.0 humanities MIGHT be brilliant enough to get a 4.0+ in science but he MOST LIKELY will NOT be. The 4.0+ science major has already shown that he is brilliant enough to get a 4.0+ in science and probably would get a 4.0 in humanities (although the argument here is whether it is easier to get an A in humanities than sciences; it is, by far, even by the OP's own admission).

To answer your original question that no one answered: no, adcomms do not know about "this" because this "disadvantage" doesn't really exist. Overall, I'd say the adcomms see science and humanities GPA numbers (4.0+) similarly. If there are any differences in how they see these numbers, it's because of other reasons and not the GPA cap. Adcomms don't know that your school doesn't give out A+ for humanities. Some schools give out A+'s, some schools don't (for both humanities and sciences). Keep in mind you aren't only competing with other applicants at your school, but schools everywhere.

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Re: Science/Engineering have higher GPA's than Humanities

Postby WestOfTheRest » Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:40 pm

senorhosh wrote:The 4.0 humanities MIGHT be brilliant enough to get a 4.0+ in science but he MOST LIKELY will NOT be. The 4.0+ science major has already shown that he is brilliant enough to get a 4.0+ in science and probably would get a 4.0 in humanities (although the argument here is whether it is easier to get an A in humanities than sciences; it is, by far, even by the OP's own admission).

This is faulty logic. You are stating that because someone can get a 4.0 in the "more difficult" sciences, it means that they can get a 4.0 in the "easier" humanities. But this relies on the assumption that the person who got a 4.0 in the sciences necessarily possesses the skillset required to get a 4.0 in humanities. This assumption simply overlooks the fact that many people in math and sciences are there because these are the fields in which they excel. They will not necessarily be able to transfer their success into another field.

This becomes very apparent when you start to work with individuals from highly technical degrees. I often find that science majors struggle to communicate effectively and persuasively. This is often the result of several things, an inability to express oneself in written format, an inability to organize one's thoughts on paper, and just poor communication skills (i.e. sub-par speaking and writing skills). While these people are often brilliant in their chosen fields, they don't perform so well when the required skillset is significantly different from what is necessary in their field.

Another issue is that technical degrees are always reducing the need for creativity and effective writing. This is a documented trend in the sciences, and is another major reason why someone who excels in the sciences may not excel in humanities.

However, I strongly believe that most people who can achieve a 4.0 in the sciences or humanities will likely be very successful regardless of what degree they pursue. Performing well in a respectable university is not easy, regardless of your program.

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Re: Science/Engineering have higher GPA's than Humanities

Postby Wade LeBosh » Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:43 pm

senorhosh wrote:
thederangedwang wrote:You misunderstand my point. Assuming that the science major is EXCEPTIONALLY brilliant (he/she is capable of getting 4.0 in science major) then he/she will have a better chance of getting 4.0+ than the equally exceptional humanities major.

In science, there is no GPA ceiling (a 100 on a test is a A+), but in humanities, there may be a ceiling (some professors just dont give out A+ on papers).


I understand what you are saying. The base argument is not whether science or humanities major is more difficult to get an A/A+. It's talking how adcomms see humanities and science major GPAs for a very, very small % of the population.

Let's say there are two candidates: a 4.0 humanities and a 17x LSAT and a 4.0+ science with a 17x LSAT


They're in everywhere they apply save Y. If this is about how Yale looks at science majors, then that's just silly.

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rayiner
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Re: Science/Engineering have higher GPA's than Humanities

Postby rayiner » Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:44 pm

Most humanities majors are terrible writers. Their writing ends up too creative and flowery. Engineers a least tend to err on the side of terse and logically organized.

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Re: Science/Engineering have higher GPA's than Humanities

Postby chem » Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:48 pm

CastleRock wrote:
senorhosh wrote:The 4.0 humanities MIGHT be brilliant enough to get a 4.0+ in science but he MOST LIKELY will NOT be. The 4.0+ science major has already shown that he is brilliant enough to get a 4.0+ in science and probably would get a 4.0 in humanities (although the argument here is whether it is easier to get an A in humanities than sciences; it is, by far, even by the OP's own admission).

This is faulty logic. You are stating that because someone can get a 4.0 in the "more difficult" sciences, it means that they can get a 4.0 in the "easier" humanities. But this relies on the assumption that the person who got a 4.0 in the sciences necessarily possesses the skillset required to get a 4.0 in humanities. This assumption simply overlooks the fact that many people in math and sciences are there because these are the fields in which they excel. They will not necessarily be able to transfer their success into another field.

This becomes very apparent when you start to work with individuals from highly technical degrees. I often find that science majors struggle to communicate effectively and persuasively. This is often the result of several things, an inability to express oneself in written format, an inability to organize one's thoughts on paper, and just poor communication skills (i.e. sub-par speaking and writing skills). While these people are often brilliant in their chosen fields, they don't perform so well when the required skillset is significantly different from what is necessary in their field.

Another issue is that technical degrees are always reducing the need for creativity and effective writing. This is a documented trend in the sciences, and is another major reason why someone who excels in the sciences may not excel in humanities.

However, I strongly believe that most people who can achieve a 4.0 in the sciences or humanities will likely be very successful regardless of what degree they pursue. Performing well in a respectable university is not easy, regardless of your program.



I don't know how that could possibly be correct. In the sciences, you have to write grants, publish papers, ect. In terms of grants, you need to be able to write effectively in order to get money. Also, in terms of creativity, i feel like designing an experiment to prove or disprove a novel idea surely fits the "creative" bill. Even outside of sciences you have engineering, where you have to creatively problem solve a design

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Re: Science/Engineering have higher GPA's than Humanities

Postby senorhosh » Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:53 pm

CastleRock wrote:
senorhosh wrote:The 4.0 humanities MIGHT be brilliant enough to get a 4.0+ in science but he MOST LIKELY will NOT be. The 4.0+ science major has already shown that he is brilliant enough to get a 4.0+ in science and probably would get a 4.0 in humanities (although the argument here is whether it is easier to get an A in humanities than sciences; it is, by far, even by the OP's own admission).

This is faulty logic. You are stating that because someone can get a 4.0 in the "more difficult" sciences, it means that they can get a 4.0 in the "easier" humanities. But this relies on the assumption that the person who got a 4.0 in the sciences necessarily possesses the skillset required to get a 4.0 in humanities. This assumption simply overlooks the fact that many people in math and sciences are there because these are the fields in which they excel. They will not necessarily be able to transfer their success into another field.

This becomes very apparent when you start to work with individuals from highly technical degrees. I often find that science majors struggle to communicate effectively and persuasively. This is often the result of several things, an inability to express oneself in written format, an inability to organize one's thoughts on paper, and just poor communication skills (i.e. sub-par speaking and writing skills). While these people are often brilliant in their chosen fields, they don't perform so well when the required skillset is significantly different from what is necessary in their field.

Another issue is that technical degrees are always reducing the need for creativity and effective writing. This is a documented trend in the sciences, and is another major reason why someone who excels in the sciences may not excel in humanities.

However, I strongly believe that most people who can achieve a 4.0 in the sciences or humanities will likely be very successful regardless of what degree they pursue. Performing well in a respectable university is not easy, regardless of your program.


Yeah I know a 4.0+ in science doesn't always mean you have the skills to get a 4.0 in humanities. I was using the OP's argument, which was talking about the brightest of the bright who are capable of both. The OP was asking if adcomms see a disadvantage to this GPA cap.

If adcomms DO see a difference between the numbers, it's most likely because
a. they see science as "harder" to get an A (might or might not be true. Doesn't matter. What matters is what the ADCOMM Thinks)
b. they see science majors lacking in writing skills (again, doesn't matter whether they do or not)

This is why they use the LSAT + writing portion (for some schools)
(also personal statements)

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Re: Science/Engineering have higher GPA's than Humanities

Postby fltanglab » Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:02 pm

Since I'm majoring in both areas, I can say that the "cap" for humanities I guess exists, but there's a reason why I get As consistently anyway and I don't even bother trying for A+s. However, when I get an A+ in a science course, the level of mastery is similar to the level of mastery for my humanities course, but it's still more amazing because of the level of perfection an A+ requires. You could be a brilliant writer and get no comments on your papers, but you're still not perfect as a writer. There's always more improvement. Getting a science A+ is saying I literally made maybe two or three mistakes the entire term. But the curve of grades for sciences is drastically different from that of humanities. Many people get As and Bs for humanities, but only the top 25-35% get As and Bs in my science courses. The medians are two worlds apart. So the A+ science student is still way more impressive than the A humanities student, no matter what.

For the record, many scientists will go to the grant writer of their respective institution for grant writing needs. I don't think the other poster meant creative quite in the sense of innovation, although designing things is definitely creative to a certain degree (so perhaps abstract versus concrete levels of creativity).

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Re: Science/Engineering have higher GPA's than Humanities

Postby thederangedwang » Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:14 pm

wow, this thread is going well.

Just to clarify, my point, let me say this.

Pretend you are the most brilliant humanities student ever, capable of impeccable research and writing. GPA wise, I find it hard to believe that you would approach 4.33 simply because grading papers are subjective and some professors do not give out A+'s in these subjects.

However, pretend you are the most brilliant chemistry student ever. You would undoubtedly get a 100 on every test and thereby secure an A+ for almost every, if not every class. As a result, your GPA would approach 4.33.

My point is simply, if you are brilliant enough, then getting a high GPA in the sciences is "EASIER" in the sense that it is mathematically achievable (just get a 100 on all the tests). While in humanities, it may actually be IMPOSSIBLE to get close to a 4.33 since you can not get A+'s for certain classes.

As a result, if 2 students go head to head for 1 spot, 1 is a 4.1 humanities major, and another is a 4.2 science major, I think the science major would get the nod just because the adcomm thinks the higher gpa and major makes the candidate better, without taking into this glass ceiling thing

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Re: Science/Engineering have higher GPA's than Humanities

Postby acrossthelake » Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:22 pm

rayiner wrote:Most humanities majors are terrible writers. Their writing ends up too creative and flowery. Engineers a least tend to err on the side of terse and logically organized.


I've been told by some 2Ls and 3Ls that science majors actually tend to do the best in the beginning of LRW, with people from other majors catching up as the semester goes on, because succinct science writing is the closest to LRW-writing. Thoughts on this from any other 2Ls and 3Ls?

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Re: Science/Engineering have higher GPA's than Humanities

Postby acrossthelake » Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:25 pm

thederangedwang wrote:wow, this thread is going well.

Just to clarify, my point, let me say this.

Pretend you are the most brilliant humanities student ever, capable of impeccable research and writing. GPA wise, I find it hard to believe that you would approach 4.33 simply because grading papers are subjective and some professors do not give out A+'s in these subjects.

However, pretend you are the most brilliant chemistry student ever. You would undoubtedly get a 100 on every test and thereby secure an A+ for almost every, if not every class. As a result, your GPA would approach 4.33.

My point is simply, if you are brilliant enough, then getting a high GPA in the sciences is "EASIER" in the sense that it is mathematically achievable (just get a 100 on all the tests). While in humanities, it may actually be IMPOSSIBLE to get close to a 4.33 since you can not get A+'s for certain classes.

As a result, if 2 students go head to head for 1 spot, 1 is a 4.1 humanities major, and another is a 4.2 science major, I think the science major would get the nod just because the adcomm thinks the higher gpa and major makes the candidate better, without taking into this glass ceiling thing


Your reasoning is flawed in that you assume other schools are like this and that people ever even reach the glass ceiling in the first place. Science & math classes at top schools certainly do not have students who get 100 on every test. It's not unheard of for professors to create exams that even other professors can't solve correctly in the allotted time period of the exam. It helps force a curve. I never heard of a single person achieving a 100% on the final organic chemistry exam at my university. I have a close friend who managed to snag a 4.0 coming out of MIT, but I assure you he didn't get 100 on every test or assignment, and that he basically dedicated his life to work.

Also this:

Dany wrote:If you have a 4.2 science GPA, you should ostensibly be smart enough to realize you can do cooler/better things than law school.

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Re: Science/Engineering have higher GPA's than Humanities

Postby Dany » Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:26 pm

If you have a 4.2 science GPA, you should ostensibly be smart enough to realize you can do cooler/better things than law school.




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