Is it worth going to law school for me?

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tyro
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby tyro » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:57 pm

teaadntoast wrote:Robotclubmember has an enormous stick wedged in his robot ass


He's doing a lot of good though by informing people of some of the realities that he and others have experienced.

Army2Law
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby Army2Law » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:04 pm

tyro wrote:
teaadntoast wrote:Robotclubmember has an enormous stick wedged in his robot ass


He's doing a lot of good though by informing people of some of the realities that he and others have experienced.


Being a 0L bitching about how awful legal hiring is and why law school is a horrible choice seems awfully self loathing to me, but, whatev. (Robot, not you)

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ahduth
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby ahduth » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:05 pm

acrossthelake wrote:
navraj_ak wrote:Hi everyone, it's my first post here and I'm excited to be apart of this forum. Anyways, I'm going into my sophomore year of college at a private catholic university in Chicago and have a 3.5 GPA.

I've been ridiculously bored for the summer and decided to look into taking a lsat practice test. I timed myself accordingly and scored a 151.

This is just mediocre and after cruising through endless pages on this site, I know a 3.5/151 is not a combo for a T14.
But to the point, is it worth continuing a path set on law school or better just to drop it?
I do still have 2+ years till the morning of the actual test and am wondering if college experience/age can boost a lsat score?

Thanks for the help


There's a path to law school? Going to law school really just consists of taking the LSAT, writing an admissions essay, getting some letters of rec, and the misc. dean's cert & transcripts and sending it out. It's a relatively simple process, and not exactly a path. No undergrad major nor specific undergrad extracurriculars help specifically with law school school admissions--the only softs likely to help you get into law school are likely to help out in manyyyy places. So, if you're concerned about whether law school will be worth it to you, make sure you have a viable plan for something else in case you don't go.

College experience/age won't boost the LSAT score if you're already college age. I could see a 14 year old improving by age 18(but really, 14 year olds generally shouldn't be taking the LSAT), but not 18 to 22.


K-JDs are fantastic.

http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/arti ... digm_shift

Sorry, everyone on this website has to read it.

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robotclubmember
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby robotclubmember » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:16 pm

tyro wrote:
teaadntoast wrote:Robotclubmember has an enormous stick wedged in his robot ass


He's doing a lot of good though by informing people of some of the realities that he and others have experienced.


I don't disagree with him though, hahaha. And ty.

I don't write all of this for the benefit of the OP. I write it for the benefit of lurkers mostly. Even though this decision won't be on OP's radar for a couple more years, there are countless people sharing his thought process who may be rising seniors on the cusp of submitting apps. And the thought process appears flawed. They need to know that law schools are degenerating into pyramid schemes that use your federally-guaranteed student loans as a wealth transfer mechanism so that they can get relieve you of the money you don't even have, without doing you the courtesy of offering decent job prospects. If there are 49,000 new grads and 30,000 new jobs, it's clear that 19,000 students each year are getting absolutely fleeced. There just isn't a nice way to look at it.

Each year now, 19,000 new JDs will have graduated after pouring their heart and soul into the law for three years, after giving up three years of income, and after taking on as much as six digits of debt without any tangible benefit except the hope of getting a job that uses their education, and they will be disappointed in their unemployment or underemployment. This should be considered a scandal. But it's not, because we have this mentality in this country that the college degree is always the right path and anything is possible. Well, anything is possible, but not everything is probable. The odds are bad. If I had known what I know now one year ago, I likely would have made a very different decision. In any case, it's no secret that I actively try to discourage unqualified or insincere applicants from going to law school. Mostly for their benefit though. Odds are they are good people who have just been lured by the Siren song of 98% employment and $160K median salary. Odds are they are good people who wanted to make an honest buck and just got shit information. This helps them more than it helps me.

SchopenhauerFTW
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby SchopenhauerFTW » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:27 pm

ahduth wrote:http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/arti ... digm_shift

Sorry, everyone on this website has to read it.

I really don't think a lot of people have. They should though.

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Wade LeBosh
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby Wade LeBosh » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:29 pm

navraj_ak wrote:Hi everyone, it's my first post here and I'm excited to be apart of this forum. Anyways, I'm going into my sophomore year of college at a private catholic university in Chicago and have a 3.5 GPA.

I've been ridiculously bored for the summer and decided to look into taking a lsat practice test. I timed myself accordingly and scored a 151.

This is just mediocre and after cruising through endless pages on this site, I know a 3.5/151 is not a combo for a T14.
But to the point, is it worth continuing a path set on law school or better just to drop it?
I do still have 2+ years till the morning of the actual test and am wondering if college experience/age can boost a lsat score?

Thanks for the help


You can defiantly raise that score in 2 years. But don't worry about that now. Wait until after your sophmore year and then think about law school again. Right now just focus on getting the best grades you can while enjoying college.

acrossthelake
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby acrossthelake » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:29 pm

ahduth wrote:


K-JDs are fantastic.

http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/arti ... digm_shift

Sorry, everyone on this website has to read it.


Though it's a good article, I fail to see how this article has anything to do with either of my points. Or what being a K-JD has anything to do with it.

Joeshan520
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby Joeshan520 » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:35 pm

Your logic is humorously circular. So you can't control the fact that external market factors have prohibited entry to a profession but you can control your reaction to magically find a way to gain entry to the profession. I just don't understand what you are saying.


The application of the degree is not contingent upon whether or not one enters the actual practice or profession. It's a training or prowess that can be applied to a variety of contexts.

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robotclubmember
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby robotclubmember » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:38 pm

Well you just blew my fucking mind right out of the water. I have no idea what we're talking about now.

Confucius says that a true education entails the cultivation of character, not the accumulation of administrative skills.

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teaadntoast
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby teaadntoast » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:41 pm

tyro wrote:
teaadntoast wrote:Robotclubmember has an enormous stick wedged in his robot ass


He's doing a lot of good though by informing people of some of the realities that he and others have experienced.


You, um, left out the second half of that sentence. You know, the part where I said he also happens to be right?

:roll:

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tyro
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby tyro » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:44 pm

Army2Law wrote:
tyro wrote:
teaadntoast wrote:Robotclubmember has an enormous stick wedged in his robot ass


He's doing a lot of good though by informing people of some of the realities that he and others have experienced.


Being a 0L bitching about how awful legal hiring is and why law school is a horrible choice seems awfully self loathing to me, but, whatev. (Robot, not you)


You've taken a questionable leap with this logic by concluding that because I encourage people to take robotman's premises/evidence seriously, I myself partake in an identical practice of advice giving and ranting. I do not think law school is a horrible choice for a select group of individuals who have odds in their favor/decent odds when contemplating a sizable return on their theoretical investment.

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robotclubmember
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby robotclubmember » Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:22 pm

Army2Law wrote:
tyro wrote:
teaadntoast wrote:Robotclubmember has an enormous stick wedged in his robot ass


He's doing a lot of good though by informing people of some of the realities that he and others have experienced.


Being a 0L bitching about how awful legal hiring is and why law school is a horrible choice seems awfully self loathing to me, but, whatev. (Robot, not you)


i was chatting with a friend who graduated from UT through facebook. he shared this advice with me -- excuse the internet speak that's just how he (and i) talk through facebook

as far as law school. my two advices are 1) don't get into a lot of debt. 2) do it for the right reasons. after law school ull likely be overworked and underpaid. very few of my collegues even from UT, a top 20 school, are making much money right now. myself included. so make sure ur in it for more than that. i wish i could say it gets better but a more realistic place way of putting it is that you get used to the lifestyle.


a far cry from the $160K median 98% employed siren call we're so used to hearing. would you prefer that i do nothing and stay silent like everyone else has about what the ABA, law schools, and uneducated consumers of legal education are doing to the industry? that's just not how it oughtta go down, people need to be talking about it.

javancho
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby javancho » Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:32 pm

robotclubmember wrote:a far cry from the $160K median 98% employed siren call we're so used to hearing. would you prefer that i do nothing and stay silent like everyone else has about what the ABA, law schools, and uneducated consumers of legal education are doing to the industry? that's just not how it oughtta go down, people need to be talking about it.

A FAR CRY indeed.

Check this out from the ABA Journal: "Help Wanted in New Jersey: Unpaid ‘Special Assistant US Attorneys’"

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... _attorneys
The U.S. Attorney’s office in New Jersey is following the lead of its counterparts in other states by advertising for some unpaid help.


I guess the program must have been so "successful" in other places that New Jersey just couldn't resist. But who can blame them? After all, why pay for lawyers when they are willing to work for free?
Last edited by javancho on Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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minnbills
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby minnbills » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:23 am

Robot- what is your friends definition of "underpaid?"

Very, very few recent graduates of UG or Grad school are making good money right now. That's what happens when you have the misfortune of graduating during the worst economic crisis since the great depression.

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robotclubmember
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby robotclubmember » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:44 am

minnbills wrote:Robot- what is your friends definition of "underpaid?"

Very, very few recent graduates of UG or Grad school are making good money right now. That's what happens when you have the misfortune of graduating during the worst economic crisis since the great depression.


http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 0#p4617620

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PDaddy
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby PDaddy » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:59 am

navraj_ak wrote:Hi everyone, it's my first post here and I'm excited to be apart of this forum. Anyways, I'm going into my sophomore year of college at a private catholic university in Chicago and have a 3.5 GPA.

I've been ridiculously bored for the summer and decided to look into taking a lsat practice test. I timed myself accordingly and scored a 151.

Thanks for the help


DePaul is a decent school. And 151 is a good starting point, especially for a soph. Practice sparingly...casually over the next year, then increase the intensity over the year leading up to the summer between your junior and senior years. Keep those grades up. Try to get your GPA up to at least 3.75 by the end of your soph year. You'll be ready. Be judicious in your course selection, but don't be a gut-hunter.

Take some challenging, unfamiliar courses but balance them out with courses you know and like. See if you can join the honors program, and/or write a thesis. Be a research assistant with one of your professors. Pick one you really like and take multiple courses from that prof. That's where you can get one of your LOR's.

javancho
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby javancho » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:58 am

minnbills wrote:Robot- what is your friends definition of "underpaid?"

I searched the entire thread looking for "underpaid" and couldn't find it. I assume you were referring to my post about UNPAID ‘Special Assistant US Attorneys’. I think "unpaid" is way worse than "underpaid," although technically "unpaid" can also fit the "underpaid" category.

The story I posted earlier is nothing new. These UNPAID LAWYER stories have been going on for quite a while now:

"District Attorney Looking for Lawyers — Free Lawyers, of Course"
http://abovethelaw.com/2010/06/district ... of-course/
"Would You Work as a Federal Prosecutor — for Free?"
http://abovethelaw.com/2011/05/would-yo ... -for-free/

I'd love to see the CVs of the candidates that apply for these positions.

TheFactor
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby TheFactor » Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:59 am

PDaddy wrote:
navraj_ak wrote:Hi everyone, it's my first post here and I'm excited to be apart of this forum. Anyways, I'm going into my sophomore year of college at a private catholic university in Chicago and have a 3.5 GPA.

I've been ridiculously bored for the summer and decided to look into taking a lsat practice test. I timed myself accordingly and scored a 151.

Thanks for the help


DePaul is a decent school. And 151 is a good starting point, especially for a soph. Practice sparingly...casually over the next year, then increase the intensity over the year leading up to the summer between your junior and senior years. Keep those grades up. Try to get your GPA up to at least 3.75 by the end of your soph year. You'll be ready. Be judicious in your course selection, but don't be a gut-hunter.

Take some challenging, unfamiliar courses but balance them out with courses you know and like. See if you can join the honors program, and/or write a thesis. Be a research assistant with one of your professors. Pick one you really like and take multiple courses from that prof. That's where you can get one of your LOR's.

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robotclubmember
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby robotclubmember » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:35 pm

TheFactor wrote:
PDaddy wrote:
navraj_ak wrote:Hi everyone, it's my first post here and I'm excited to be apart of this forum. Anyways, I'm going into my sophomore year of college at a private catholic university in Chicago and have a 3.5 GPA.

I've been ridiculously bored for the summer and decided to look into taking a lsat practice test. I timed myself accordingly and scored a 151.

Thanks for the help


DePaul is a decent school. And 151 is a good starting point, especially for a soph. Practice sparingly...casually over the next year, then increase the intensity over the year leading up to the summer between your junior and senior years. Keep those grades up. Try to get your GPA up to at least 3.75 by the end of your soph year. You'll be ready. Be judicious in your course selection, but don't be a gut-hunter.

Take some challenging, unfamiliar courses but balance them out with courses you know and like. See if you can join the honors program, and/or write a thesis. Be a research assistant with one of your professors. Pick one you really like and take multiple courses from that prof. That's where you can get one of your LOR's.


LOL. Whatever a gut-hunter is, I think you should be one OP.

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Hopefully2012
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby Hopefully2012 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:41 pm

For those of you who disagree with robot and think he's being too pessimistic: I have some food for thought.

I just posted a wanted ad for a part-time file clerk at the firm I am currently working at. The pay is ~$10/hr and I have had multiple 3Ls at a top-15 school submit resumes. I was surprised but was advised that the firm gets the bottom of the barrel t-15 students apply for these types of positions all the time--"they are desperate" were his words. The possibility of being paid close to nothing, even out of a great school, definitely exists.

scammedhard
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby scammedhard » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:01 pm

Hopefully2012 wrote:For those of you who disagree with robot and think he's being too pessimistic: I have some food for thought.

I just posted a wanted ad for a part-time file clerk at the firm I am currently working at. The pay is ~$10/hr and I have had multiple 3Ls at a top-15 school submit resumes. I was surprised but was advised that the firm gets the bottom of the barrel t-15 students apply for these types of positions all the time--"they are desperate" were his words. The possibility of being paid close to nothing, even out of a great school, definitely exists.

THANKS. That's real world, solid info. However, don't just leave it there; please tell us how many job applications you got, what is the profile of the median applicant, and who is likely to get hired and why. Let's see who gets the ~$10/hr (temp job?). If you could share any or all of that, it would be greatly appreciated.

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Hopefully2012
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby Hopefully2012 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:28 pm

scammedhard wrote:THANKS. That's real world, solid info. However, don't just leave it there; please tell us how many job applications you got, what is the profile of the median applicant, and who is likely to get hired and why. Let's see who gets the ~$10/hr (temp job?). If you could share any or all of that, it would be greatly appreciated.


Don't want to "hijack" this thread but I'll include a little background information if you're interested.

This is the first time I have participated in the hiring process at this firm (I've only been here a couple months my self) so I was pretty surprised when we received responses from students in top law schools in addition to the undergrads and paralegals. It was an eye-opening experience personally. I don't plan on interviewing any of the 3Ls because they are likely applying under the pre-tense they can work from the bottom-up. The biggest advantage of this job (considering the low pay-rate) is working with/getting LoRs/having your personal statement looked over by well-established HYS trained attorneys.

We posted the ad at the career centers of a couple of the major universities located close to our firm. Our ad specifically said our ideal candidate is someone who has recently graduated or still pursuing their bachelors but with ambitions of attending law school sometime in the future. That is the "median applicant" and who I will likely end up hiring.

We posted the ad yesterday (Monday) and have gotten too many resumes to count. At least 50.

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robotclubmember
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby robotclubmember » Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:24 pm

Hopefully2012 wrote:For those of you who disagree with robot and think he's being too pessimistic: I have some food for thought.

I just posted a wanted ad for a part-time file clerk at the firm I am currently working at. The pay is ~$10/hr and I have had multiple 3Ls at a top-15 school submit resumes. I was surprised but was advised that the firm gets the bottom of the barrel t-15 students apply for these types of positions all the time--"they are desperate" were his words. The possibility of being paid close to nothing, even out of a great school, definitely exists.


How many resumes would you guess were from T-15? How many were from currently enrolled JDs or newly graduated JDs? And thank you for sharing.

Army2Law wrote:
tyro wrote:
teaadntoast wrote:Robotclubmember has an enormous stick wedged in his robot ass


He's doing a lot of good though by informing people of some of the realities that he and others have experienced.


Being a 0L bitching about how awful legal hiring is and why law school is a horrible choice seems awfully self loathing to me, but, whatev. (Robot, not you)


Attacking the source of the information and not the information is the sign of a person who is insecure. To date no one has been seriously challenging the facts, and that concerns me because I'd love to be wrong.

My favorite logical fallacies on TLS:

ad hominem (rcm needs to get laid, rcm just an 0L, challenging the source instead of the facts)
false choice (i have to go to law school, because what else do i do with a lib arts degree?, ignoring there are many other options)
straw man (rcm says law school is a bad idea for everyone, or some other weakened version of an argument i never proposed)

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ahduth
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby ahduth » Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:41 pm

For what it's worth buddy, I think you're just bringing the accountant's mindset to the table, and people don't like that. Accountant's get no love, but they'd perish without us.

200k in debt can buy you a house, or it can buy you a job in a rapidly changing industry where you better have your head screwed on straight, or you're going to get screwed. My comment earlier about K-JDs was more aimed at the end of the Cravath model of associate development... but that's largely speculation on my part. I don't think anyone should be going into this business without approaching it exactly as that: a business. Law school no longer buys you job security, ability to bring in or keep business does.

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Hopefully2012
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby Hopefully2012 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:47 pm

robotclubmember wrote:How many resumes would you guess were from T-15? How many were from currently enrolled JDs or newly graduated JDs? And thank you for sharing.


I count 3 from 3Ls and 1 from a 2L, no resumes from newly graduates of t-15. Keeping in mind that this is a part-time job towards the middle/end of summer, I would hope all the t-15 graduates were able to find some type of employment better than $10/hr over the course of the last 2 months.
Last edited by Hopefully2012 on Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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