Is it worth going to law school for me?

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Joeshan520
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby Joeshan520 » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:06 pm

OP's economic argument for attending law school is actually quite sound. He's increasing his utility at no added cost assuming that his parents are paying for the education. OP, while there might not be demand for lawyers in the midst of one of the worst recessions of our country's history that's not to say there won't be demand in the future. Quite the contrary, there will probably be more demand for lawyers in the distant future given the increasing number of regulatory measures that will be passed to govern the way financial institutions behave (which is why we are in the mess we are in today). Companies will look to people who have the legal background as a way of maneuvering around regulatory behavior to make profits. That's where innovation comes in, productive forces behave in response to environmental conditions that govern them. All these people continue to gripe because they chose to take out debt and may not see an immediate return on their investments. That doesn't mean our utility in the real world diminishes as a result of having more education.

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robotclubmember
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby robotclubmember » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:36 pm

Joeshan520 wrote:OP's economic argument for attending law school is actually quite sound. He's increasing his utility at no added cost assuming that his parents are paying for the education. OP, while there might not be demand for lawyers in the midst of one of the worst recessions of our country's history that's not to say there won't be demand in the future. Quite the contrary, there will probably be more demand for lawyers in the distant future given the increasing number of regulatory measures that will be passed to govern the way financial institutions behave (which is why we are in the mess we are in today). Companies will look to people who have the legal background as a way of maneuvering around regulatory behavior to make profits. That's where innovation comes in, productive forces behave in response to environmental conditions that govern them. All these people continue to gripe because they chose to take out debt and may not see an immediate return on their investments. That doesn't mean our utility in the real world diminishes as a result of having more education.


you must be new here:

http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/arti ... igm_shift/

it's not picking back up. the golden age of the lawyer is gone. what you say would be true if all problems in the legal market were cyclical. but the issues aren't just cyclical, they are structural. it's some crazy myth that people think that because something was one way in the past, it will always be that way in the future. look at the fall of the auto worker. that's sadly the future of the lawyer at this rate. the work is being automated, outsourced, and done cheaper by temps.

and it's still three years of your life you're not getting back. three years in the rime of your youth is still an added cost. but if your parents are paying then blow their money any way you want. between now and then, just worry about the lsat. odds are from a 151 you won't break 170 but it's possible.

navraj_ak
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby navraj_ak » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:31 pm

A degree in Economics is useless?
Economics majors do the best on the LSAT behind math majors. And it seems like a fine major I could apply to a lot of things. I'm just not sure what to do with it. I guess my thought process went like this at the time: Go ahead and get a real useless lib arts degree (English, Poly Sci) and then go to law school with no fallback plan, or get an economics degree which seems very useful and have other doors open. There's simply no way I could complete an engineering degree, or a physics degree and still have the GPA to apply to law school, or many other graduate schools.

scammedhard
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby scammedhard » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:36 pm

navraj_ak wrote:A degree in Economics is useless?
Economics majors do the best on the LSAT behind math majors. And it seems like a fine major I could apply to a lot of things. I'm just not sure what to do with it. I guess my thought process went like this at the time: Go ahead and get a real useless lib arts degree (English, Poly Sci) and then go to law school with no fallback plan, or get an economics degree which seems very useful and have other doors open. There's simply no way I could complete an engineering degree, or a physics degree and still have the GPA to apply to law school, or many other graduate schools.

You are still young and under no pressure to attend law school; you have an "employable" major, so just work for a few years and see how this crisis of employment in the legal field plays out. Maybe it will resolve itself in a few years, maybe the ABA will act, or maybe a more competent agency will replace the ABA. Who knows? Just wait and see.

WSJ_Law
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby WSJ_Law » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:52 pm

Ok. Fuck off and do something else. Law school is not some back up plan because you failed O-Chem or couldn't hack it with the quant to get BB banking. Find something you're passionate about and do that, because it offends people who actually are passionate about law to see your wavering around in pitiful numbers thinking you are some special flower who will get big lawl from a t50/TT/TTT. So,

1. Fuck off.
2. Do something else.

WSJ_Law
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby WSJ_Law » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:55 pm

navraj_ak wrote:A degree in Economics is useless?
Economics majors do the best on the LSAT behind math majors.


So your primary criterion for evaluating the "usefulness" of a major is how those majors on balance perform on the LSAT?

Eeeshk. I can see where that 150 came from.

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TommyK
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby TommyK » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:02 pm

WSJ_Law wrote:
navraj_ak wrote:A degree in Economics is useless?
Economics majors do the best on the LSAT behind math majors.


So your primary criterion for evaluating the "usefulness" of a major is how those majors on balance perform on the LSAT?

Eeeshk. I can see where that 150 came from.


So something that is listed first must be the primary supporting reason for the previous statement? C'mon - he said that it is not useless because it can open doors later on

Jeebus, so much hate being thrown at this kid.

TheFactor
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby TheFactor » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:09 pm

WSJ_Law wrote:
navraj_ak wrote:A degree in Economics is useless?
Economics majors do the best on the LSAT behind math majors.


So your primary criterion for evaluating the "usefulness" of a major is how those majors on balance perform on the LSAT?

Eeeshk. I can see where that 150 came from.

Here, boys and girls, we see the irony in using faulty logic to point out not-so-faulty logic.

WSJ_Law
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby WSJ_Law » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:15 pm

Why would anyone put forth anything but their strongest point first?

scammedhard
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby scammedhard » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:15 pm

TheFactor wrote:Here, boys and girls, we see the irony in using faulty logic to point out not-so-faulty logic.

Thanks for your "substantial" contribution to the main topic. Would you like to add anything else?

TheFactor
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby TheFactor » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:20 pm

scammedhard wrote:
TheFactor wrote:Here, boys and girls, we see the irony in using faulty logic to point out not-so-faulty logic.

Thanks for your "substantial" contribution to the main topic. Would you like to add anything else?

You mean like telling OP to fuck off?

No, that will be all for now. This thread has been filled to the brim with "substantial" contributions.

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kwais
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby kwais » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:23 pm

WSJ_Law wrote:Ok. Fuck off and do something else. Law school is not some back up plan because you failed O-Chem or couldn't hack it with the quant to get BB banking. Find something you're passionate about and do that, because it offends people who actually are passionate about law to see your wavering around in pitiful numbers thinking you are some special flower who will get big lawl from a t50/TT/TTT. So,

1. Fuck off.
2. Do something else.


what are you crying about?

WSJ_Law
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby WSJ_Law » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:28 pm

navraj_ak wrote: In my opinion, work your ass off and don't bee the ones that end up as low-paid temps. But thanks for all the positive advice, it really helps to be told to fuck off and do something else.

SchopenhauerFTW
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby SchopenhauerFTW » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:32 pm

WSJ_Law wrote:
navraj_ak wrote: In my opinion, work your ass off and don't bee the ones that end up as low-paid temps. But thanks for all the positive advice, it really helps to be told to fuck off and do something else.

Credited. Avoid the hive mind. lol

Joeshan520
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby Joeshan520 » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:33 pm

the golden age of the lawyer is gone. what you say would be true if all problems in the legal market were cyclical. but the issues aren't just cyclical, they are structural.


True, the legal profession may be fundamentally restructuring. However, much of the BigLaw work OP is interested in hinges upon large scale transactional work that fluctuates according to business cycles. My point to OP was that his/her success or lack thereof would be contingent upon their creativity and determination as a lawyer. Your evidence also supports this end of my argument.

"As the balance of power shifts from traditional law firms and toward clients and a raft of tech-savvy legal services vendors, the price of continued prosperity for lawyers is going to be innovation and doing more with less"-ABAJournal

WSJ_Law
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby WSJ_Law » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:40 pm

TommyK wrote: C'mon - he said that it is not useless because it can open doors later on


Weak. Any major can "open doors later on". A Communications major opens up plenty of doors...

To McDonalds. Problem?

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acrossthelake
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby acrossthelake » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:43 pm

WSJ_Law wrote:Ok. Fuck off and do something else. Law school is not some back up plan because you failed O-Chem or couldn't hack it with the quant to get BB banking. Find something you're passionate about and do that, because it offends people who actually are passionate about law to see your wavering around in pitiful numbers thinking you are some special flower who will get big lawl from a t50/TT/TTT. So,

1. Fuck off.
2. Do something else.


Lay off the "fuck offs" or meet a banhammer.

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TommyK
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby TommyK » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:57 pm

WSJ_Law wrote:
TommyK wrote: C'mon - he said that it is not useless because it can open doors later on


Weak. Any major can "open doors later on". A Communications major opens up plenty of doors...

To McDonalds. Problem?


What's weak? I was saying that he supports his statement that an econ major is useful. It has applications to many careers and is generally more employable than a degree like history or english.

Insofar as you define usefulness of a major by career prospects and LSAT readiness (whether that be skills learned during the coursework or a selection bias is not determined), I would agree with OP. Though, I would suggest to the OP that to continue to hedge his bets, he should get a real internship so he is actually employable upon graduation if he ends up falling out of love with the law.

Regarding the harshness the guy is receiving, I just don't understand it. It seems like he has done things right. He's chosen a major that hedges his bets, he's concentrating on keeping a solid GPA and already thinking about his LSAT. While he may not be 100% set on law school, he's feeling it out. If you really want to help him, advice of shadowing an attorney and seeing if there's a law firm you can help out during the summer, or interviewing practicting attorneys would all be better advice than "fuck off".

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robotclubmember
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby robotclubmember » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:59 pm

Joeshan520 wrote:
the golden age of the lawyer is gone. what you say would be true if all problems in the legal market were cyclical. but the issues aren't just cyclical, they are structural.


True, the legal profession may be fundamentally restructuring. However, much of the BigLaw work OP is interested in hinges upon large scale transactional work that fluctuates according to business cycles. My point to OP was that his/her success or lack thereof would be contingent upon their creativity and determination as a lawyer. Your evidence also supports this end of my argument.

"As the balance of power shifts from traditional law firms and toward clients and a raft of tech-savvy legal services vendors, the price of continued prosperity for lawyers is going to be innovation and doing more with less"-ABAJournal


sometimes, in this economy, it's just a numbers game. your success is not in your own hands.

when i started at a big four firm in 2008, there were four new hires, self included. two of them had been canned within 6 months due to the 2008 crash. they had done nothing wrong and it was no fault of their own whatsoever. they were crushed. i got to watch them get called down, clear out their stuff and leave the same day, after working there for under half a year. that was only the first wave of layoffs too. fortunately i never got the axe. instead i got worked to death and the constant stress of fearing the axe. i still get the better deal though.

i'm guessing you've never been through a wave of layoffs, because if you had watched it happening, you wouldn't so nonchalantly claim it's all up to you and your own determination. your idea that "his/her success or lack thereof would be contingent upon their creativity and determination as a lawyer" is a pipe dream. that is a factor, but many are simply out of your control. this is a numbers game. the 1/3 of new JDs who were unable to get a job that actually used their law degree weren't all failures.

sometimes it's scary to acknowledge that life is largely governed by chance and chaos. that you have control over the wheel of your little personal warship, but you don't control the winds, the waves, the temperatures or the competition. this is the part that people fail to acknowledge, and it's what should leave them scared shitless. when one of our biggest firms in our market retracted ALL offers to SA's (after first deferring their start date by half a year) in 2009, i'm pretty sure that the creativity and determination of that class was not a factor in their decision. if anything i've said is evidence to support the claim that this will all blow over when the economy improves (which may happen in 3 or 4 years from now), then we're just not speaking the same language.

Joeshan520
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby Joeshan520 » Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:36 pm

This argument continues to be fatalistic. You are right you can't control the external factors that affect your warship but you can control how you choose to deal with them. Maybe how you choose to deal with the waves using the mind you have developed will win you prosperity or an employment opportunity in the end, you have absolutely no idea especially given the "chaotic existence" pretenses you subscribe to. The legal profession, let alone a law school education is a psychology that you have developed and used as a means to support yourself. Consider yourself lucky that you weren't on the chopping block. Maybe rather then telling the OP to run and hide, offer advice as to how you were able to get through (or are getting through) the mess unscathed clearly you are doing something right. Think about your life before and tell me you were better equipped then to handle the real world stripped of the education you received (I realize the AdHom but it's just a point). So a BigLaw Context is failing what stops the OP from pursuing business, government or other avenues to use the education? It's not a one size fits all ordeal, especially considering the OP has absolutely no idea what the profession entails.

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robotclubmember
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby robotclubmember » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:01 pm

Your logic is humorously circular. So you can't control the fact that external market factors have prohibited entry to a profession but you can control your reaction to magically find a way to gain entry to the profession. I just don't understand what you are saying.

How I survived is partly by hustling, and I still am hustling, but it was mostly a matter of chance once I was hired, and I just can't give recommendations on how to roll doubles an a craps table. That's the nature of chance. I think this mantra that it's all up to you needs to go. It's up to you to a point, and always try your best. But OP believes in a fantasy world where "work your ass off and you'll never have to work a temp job." Well guess what. 27% of the newest class of JDs got temp jobs because that is all there was, and I'm sure a lot of them worked their ass off.

The bottom line is that there are 30,000 new openings for 49,000 new graduates. So even if all 49,000 "work their ass off," it won't be enough to save 2 out of 5 of them who will end up working non-JD jobs or unemployed. My girl has a family friend that graduated from UCLA and now works as a manager at a J. Crew. That's just reality. 49,000 people working their ass off doesn't mean 49,000 will be rewarded. In this market, you have to accept that you may work your ass off and get shit on anyway. So is the risk of three years of lost income and three years of your life in general really worth it if you're not looking at a top-notch school, don't have a specific plan in mind, and just want to go to make money? No. If you're testing at 151 on the LSAT, odds are Big Law is not in your future. Very few people boost a 151 to 170 level. And of those that do, only half at T14 get Big Law. But anything is possible.

WSJ_Law
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby WSJ_Law » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:11 pm

Only half of T14 get big law..So only T7 get big lawl..100% employment for Yale-Boalt/Michigan....Problem Penn?

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teaadntoast
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby teaadntoast » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:13 pm

I would recommend against taking on over $150,000.00 in debt based on your possible affinity for the LSAT.

Work for a few years, preferrably AT A LAW FIRM, and then ask yourself this question.

Because the only thing worse than law school debt is having to pay it off working a job you aboslutely loathe.

And, no, the "doom and gloom" isn't unwarranted. Robotclubmember has an enormous stick wedged in his robot ass, but he's not wrong regarding the state of the current market.

Z3RO
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby Z3RO » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:24 pm

Am I the only one who realizes that the "OMG ITE IS SO BAD" shit being shoveled on OP's lap is completely irrelevant? He's a sophmore. He can't even attend law school for at least another 2 years, and odds are that he'll work for a year or two in between.

Hey OP,

You can improve that LSAT easily, but unless you're super passionate about the law, I'd try to find something that you're interested in that doesn't require another 3 years of school. I'd advise anybody considering law school to take a year or two off to work. This puts you in a more mature position of knowing what you're good at, having achieved a few things, and getting to live outside of academia for a while. Not to mention you'll put some distance between you, this economy, and people who post in all caps or bold like that Robot asshole.

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robotclubmember
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Re: Is it worth going to law school for me?

Postby robotclubmember » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:46 pm

working a few years may put some distance between you and the economy, but it will never put distance between you and assholes like me.




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