Is it worth going to law school for me? Forum

[navraj_ak]

Hi everyone, it's my first post here and I'm excited to be apart of this forum. Anyways, I'm going into my sophomore year of college at a private catholic university in Chicago and have a 3.5 GPA.

I've been ridiculously bored for the summer and decided to look into taking a lsat practice test. I timed myself accordingly and scored a 151.

This is just mediocre and after cruising through endless pages on this site, I know a 3.5/151 is not a combo for a T14.
But to the point, is it worth continuing a path set on law school or better just to drop it?
I do still have 2+ years till the morning of the actual test and am wondering if college experience/age can boost a lsat score?

Thanks for the help

[thederangedwang]

Hi everyone, it's my first post here and I'm excited to be apart of this forum. Anyways, I'm going into my sophomore year of college at a private catholic university in Chicago and have a 3.5 GPA.

I've been ridiculously bored for the summer and decided to look into taking a lsat practice test. I timed myself accordingly and scored a 151.

This is just mediocre and after cruising through endless pages on this site, I know a 3.5/151 is not a combo for a T14.
But to the point, is it worth continuing a path set on law school or better just to drop it?
I do still have 2+ years till the morning of the actual test and am wondering if college experience/age can boost a lsat score?

Thanks for the help

First of all, if that is a cold test (meaning you didnt study at all and just took it) then it isnt that bad. In fact, it's actually quite decent. A 151 is the test average for many actual LSAT tests so you are already scoring the average without any studying. With studying, most people improve 10-15 points. But as with all things, people are different, some people can shoot up 20 points, some people, less than 10.

The good news is because you are so early, you can plan and prepare. Work hard on your gpa the next few years and try to pull that up to a 3.8. You can def do it. Also, work on your soft materials, you mentioned you were bored this summer? Get a rewarding, feel-good, and resume building internship. Try an internship with the Dept of Justice, itll look really good.

Finally, I think you have at least a shot of being T14 competitive. You can start studyign really early (6 months in advance) and prepare fully. IF you try I def think you have a shot at the lower T14 schools.

[TommyK]

A cold diagnostic of 151 does not indicate an inability to perform well on the test. Many people on here were able to raise their score (from a similar range) 15 - 20 points (myself included).

So really, the question is > do you want to be a lawyer enough to put in the work to raise it? Spend some time with practicing attorneys, see what they do. If you like it enough to work for 3 - 6 months to crush the LSAT, then 3 years in post-undergraduate education, then a few months of soul-sapping studying for the bar, to have a shot at it, yes - it's worth going to law school for you.

[scammedhard]

Hi everyone, it's my first post here and I'm excited to be apart of this forum. Anyways, I'm going into my sophomore year of college at a private catholic university in Chicago and have a 3.5 GPA.

I've been ridiculously bored for the summer and decided to look into taking a lsat practice test. I timed myself accordingly and scored a 151.

This is just mediocre and after cruising through endless pages on this site, I know a 3.5/151 is not a combo for a T14.
But to the point, is it worth continuing a path set on law school or better just to drop it?
I do still have 2+ years till the morning of the actual test and am wondering if college experience/age can boost a lsat score?

Thanks for the help

Did you look into law school and the LSAT because you were bored? If so, at the moment law school is not for you. Do you homework and extensively research the profession before investing 200K+ and three years of your life.

[minnbills]

If you don't have a drive to go to law school, don't go. A 151 diag is not a sufficient reason to discourage someone who is really motivated, IMO.

[confusedlaw]

i went from 151 diagnostic to a 167

[robotclubmember]

i went from 151 diagnostic to a 167

Yep. And then with your 3.5 and 167 you can get into a T25 at sticker or close to it, or a T50 with some decent money. The T25 will give you okay job prospects but not OK enough to offset the debt since you had to pay sticker. You'll come out of the T50 with less debt, but less job prospects. The cost of job prospects will be debt. In either case it probably won't be enough to offset the risk of graduating in a field in which:

- a 20% decline in starting pay in just one year has been seen
- only two thirds graduate into a job that actually requires a JD
- close to 50% of the most recent graduating class is either unemployed, working part-time, or working in a temp gig
- the BLS itself estimates "keen competition" and about 30,000 new openings per year to service the needs of 49,000 graduates each year
- among those jobs, many more will be low-paid temp gigs, as agencies predict a cumulative 25% increase of temp hiring over the next two years
- if there is a bad year economically, your offer can be retracted by a law firm just like that (I've seen it happen)
- your fallback idea of getting a gov't job is proven laughable by the hiring freezes that will only stay in place and intensify after congress passes more spending cuts

The golden age of the lawyer is over. Sorry. OP, you probably should not go, then you can laugh at those of us who did later.

[confusedlaw]

i have a 3.7, not much better haha

[TheFactor]

i went from 151 diagnostic to a 167

Yep. And then with your 3.5 and 167 you can get into a T25 at sticker or close to it, or a T50 with some decent money. The T25 will give you okay job prospects but not OK enough to offset the debt since you had to pay sticker. You'll come out of the T50 with less debt, but less job prospects. The cost of job prospects will be debt. In either case it probably won't be enough to offset the risk of graduating in a field in which:

- a 20% decline in starting pay in just one year has been seen
- only two thirds graduate into a job that actually requires a JD
- close to 50% of the most recent graduating class is either unemployed, working part-time, or working in a temp gig
- the BLS itself estimates "keen competition" and about 30,000 new openings per year to service the needs of 49,000 graduates each year
- among those jobs, many more will be low-paid temp gigs, as agencies predict a cumulative 25% increase of temp hiring over the next two years
- if there is a bad year economically, your offer can be retracted by a law firm just like that (I've seen it happen)
- your fallback idea of getting a gov't job is proven laughable by the hiring freezes that will only stay in place and intensify after congress passes more spending cuts

The golden age of the lawyer is over. Sorry. OP, you probably should not go, then you can laugh at those of us who did later.

Thanks for that, MTal.

[094320]

..

[scammedhard]

Thanks for that, MTal.

TheFactor:
All of the reasons "Robot" wrote, tell me which ones are illogical or not backed by data.

[robotclubmember]

i went from 151 diagnostic to a 167

Yep. And then with your 3.5 and 167 you can get into a T25 at sticker or close to it, or a T50 with some decent money. The T25 will give you okay job prospects but not OK enough to offset the debt since you had to pay sticker. You'll come out of the T50 with less debt, but less job prospects. The cost of job prospects will be debt. In either case it probably won't be enough to offset the risk of graduating in a field in which:

- a 20% decline in starting pay in just one year has been seen
- only two thirds graduate into a job that actually requires a JD
- close to 50% of the most recent graduating class is either unemployed, working part-time, or working in a temp gig
- the BLS itself estimates "keen competition" and about 30,000 new openings per year to service the needs of 49,000 graduates each year
- among those jobs, many more will be low-paid temp gigs, as agencies predict a cumulative 25% increase of temp hiring over the next two years
- if there is a bad year economically, your offer can be retracted by a law firm just like that (I've seen it happen)
- your fallback idea of getting a gov't job is proven laughable by the hiring freezes that will only stay in place and intensify after congress passes more spending cuts

The golden age of the lawyer is over. Sorry. OP, you probably should not go, then you can laugh at those of us who did later.

Thanks for that, MTal.

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 3#p4614023

I know this may blow your mongrel mind away, but after you're done shitting in your britches, take inventory of your life and ask yourself if this is really what you want out of it. (Directed at OP, not you)

[navraj_ak]

I have no idea how to reply correctly but this is directed at you, Robot.

Actually, a 3.5/167 put into the law school predictor does very well with "consider" and "strong consider" all the way up to T14 where there are some "weak consider" thrown in until T10. I'm sure paying sticker at UVA or Cornell wouldn't be a problem and in matter of fact, paying sticker up to T30 seems fine with me. I don't think I'll end up doing doc review and living a terrible, suicidal life as you put it out to be. I can raise that 3.5 even higher.

Your statements are so broad. " A T25 will give you okay job prospects but not enough to offset debt". My family's financial background will enable me to attend any choice of school without fear of debt. Besides that, it seems that a lot of these schools will do an individual just fine, USC, Illinois, Georgetown, they seem to produce stellar lawyers and although hit by the economic crisis, they are holding their own.

I often see a lot of gloom and doom on this site but I feel like a lot of it is unwarranted. Or maybe this comes from tier 2 grads and people that didn't actually make it. The advice you give often comes directly from your experiences and it seems a lot of you have had terrible experiences. You have to work hard at anything you do, I'm sure if I went to a Medical School forum it would be the same nonsense about how hard it is, how much effort is needed.

In my opinion, work your ass off and don't bee the ones that end up as low-paid temps. But thanks for all the positive advice, it really helps to be told to fuck off and do something else.

[scammedhard]

I often see a lot of gloom and doom on this site but I feel like a lot of it is unwarranted. Or maybe this comes from tier 2 grads and people that didn't actually make it. The advice you give often comes directly from your experiences and it seems a lot of you have had terrible experiences. You have to work hard at anything you do, I'm sure if I went to a Medical School forum it would be the same nonsense about how hard it is, how much effort is needed.

If you don't want to follow the "negative" advice of lots of TLSers, fine. But there a lot of data out there for anyone to compare the state of the labor markets among MDs, MBAs, JDs, PharmDs, engineers, scientists, etc. Even putting aside debts, I think JDs are by far in worst situation because only 6 out of 10 recent JD graduates land "bar passage-required" jobs.

[minnbills]

I often see a lot of gloom and doom on this site but I feel like a lot of it is unwarranted. Or maybe this comes from tier 2 grads and people that didn't actually make it. The advice you give often comes directly from your experiences and it seems a lot of you have had terrible experiences. You have to work hard at anything you do, I'm sure if I went to a Medical School forum it would be the same nonsense about how hard it is, how much effort is needed.

If you don't want to follow the "negative" advice of lots of TLSers, fine. But there a lot of data out there for anyone to compare the state of the labor markets among MDs, MBAs, JDs, PharmDs, engineers, scientists, etc. Even putting aside debts, I think JDs are by far in worst situation because only 6 out of 10 recent JD graduates land "bar passage-required" jobs.

That's because there are too many law schools. Many other fields actively limit the number of people who can be licensed to practice- as I'm sure you know. Of course all law schools aren't created equal, and that's the sticking point.

[robotclubmember]

I have no idea how to reply correctly but this is directed at you, Robot.

Actually, a 3.5/167 put into the law school predictor does very well with "consider" and "strong consider" all the way up to T14 where there are some "weak consider" thrown in until T10. I'm sure paying sticker at UVA or Cornell wouldn't be a problem and in matter of fact, paying sticker up to T30 seems fine with me. I don't think I'll end up doing doc review and living a terrible, suicidal life as you put it out to be. I can raise that 3.5 even higher.

Your statements are so broad. " A T25 will give you okay job prospects but not enough to offset debt". My family's financial background will enable me to attend any choice of school without fear of debt. Besides that, it seems that a lot of these schools will do an individual just fine, USC, Illinois, Georgetown, they seem to produce stellar lawyers and although hit by the economic crisis, they are holding their own.

I often see a lot of gloom and doom on this site but I feel like a lot of it is unwarranted. Or maybe this comes from tier 2 grads and people that didn't actually make it. The advice you give often comes directly from your experiences and it seems a lot of you have had terrible experiences. You have to work hard at anything you do, I'm sure if I went to a Medical School forum it would be the same nonsense about how hard it is, how much effort is needed.

In my opinion, work your ass off and don't bee the ones that end up as low-paid temps. But thanks for all the positive advice, it really helps to be told to fuck off and do something else.

You're a rising sophomore. Everything you think you know right now, you will later find out was wrong. Your "opinion" that the laws of supply and demand do not apply to you is a stupid opinion. You came asking for advice, you got advice. Deal with it.

You say that everything I said was broad. That's hilarious considering I gave a DETAILED BULLET-POINTED LIST OF SPECIFICS. It's obvious you just don't want to hear the truth. The doom and gloom is warranted. No one here is disputing the facts I left for you to ponder. Did you notice that? You think T10 is the ticket? Top 1/3 of class? http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 3&t=157037

There are no guarantees at this point. Like I said, you could get into T25, but at foll or mostly full boat. Sticker at non T-14 is a bad financial decision, statistically speaking. It's highly improbable you will raise your LSAT from 151 to 167, so I'm not even going to get into this anymore with you. You will have to figure this out on your own.

My only question is:

IF YOU HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS, AND YOU'VE MADE UP YOUR MIND, WHY THE HELL ARE YOU ASKING US?

[094320]

..

[ahduth]

I really like robot's proactive level of aggro lately.

[TommyK]

jeez, robot - you need to go get laid or something. You're being way too . Chill, baby.

[Real Madrid]

I have no idea how to reply correctly but this is directed at you, Robot.

Actually, a 3.5/167 put into the law school predictor does very well with "consider" and "strong consider" all the way up to T14 where there are some "weak consider" thrown in until T10. I'm sure paying sticker at UVA or Cornell wouldn't be a problem and in matter of fact, paying sticker up to T30 seems fine with me. I don't think I'll end up doing doc review and living a terrible, suicidal life as you put it out to be. I can raise that 3.5 even higher.

Your statements are so broad. " A T25 will give you okay job prospects but not enough to offset debt". My family's financial background will enable me to attend any choice of school without fear of debt. Besides that, it seems that a lot of these schools will do an individual just fine, USC, Illinois, Georgetown, they seem to produce stellar lawyers and although hit by the economic crisis, they are holding their own.

I often see a lot of gloom and doom on this site but I feel like a lot of it is unwarranted. Or maybe this comes from tier 2 grads and people that didn't actually make it. The advice you give often comes directly from your experiences and it seems a lot of you have had terrible experiences. You have to work hard at anything you do, I'm sure if I went to a Medical School forum it would be the same nonsense about how hard it is, how much effort is needed.

In my opinion, work your ass off and don't bee the ones that end up as low-paid temps. But thanks for all the positive advice, it really helps to be told to fuck off and do something else.

You're a rising sophomore. Everything you think you know right now, you will later find out was wrong. Your "opinion" that the laws of supply and demand do not apply to you is a stupid opinion. You came asking for advice, you got advice. Deal with it.

You say that everything I said was broad. That's hilarious considering I gave a DETAILED BULLET-POINTED LIST OF SPECIFICS. It's obvious you just don't want to hear the truth. The doom and gloom is warranted. No one here is disputing the facts I left for you to ponder. Did you notice that? You think T10 is the ticket? Top 1/3 of class? http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 3&t=157037

There are no guarantees at this point. Like I said, you could get into T25, but at foll or mostly full boat. Sticker at non T-14 is a bad financial decision, statistically speaking. It's highly improbable you will raise your LSAT from 151 to 167, so I'm not even going to get into this anymore with you. You will have to figure this out on your own.

My only question is:

IF YOU HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS, AND YOU'VE MADE UP YOUR MIND, WHY THE HELL ARE YOU ASKING US?

While some of your points are legitimate, you're being a bit dramatic. Yes, the market right now is bad. Very bad. But you aren't immune to the OP's hopefulness, or you wouldn't be going to law school

To the OP: Working hard does not ensure your success in law school or afterward. Everyone will be working hard. If you think that is your easy ticket to a six-figure salary, well, you're objectively wrong. That is all.

[minnbills]

While some of your points are legitimate, you're being a bit dramatic. Yes, the market right now is bad. Very bad. But you aren't immune to the OP's hopefulness, or you wouldn't be going to law school

To the OP: Working hard does not ensure your success in law school or afterward. Everyone will be working hard. If you think that is your easy ticket to a six-figure salary, well, you're objectively wrong. That is all.

There will always be a group of people who don't work hard, for whatever reason.

[navraj_ak]

Well, is there anything else to fall back on?
I'm an economics major at DePaul University, and I'd be faced taking a job in the financial sector or either going to grad school. Taking a financial position, I wouldn't be in debt but I'd probably be stuck at 40/50k for awhile not really doing what I'd like to do.
As stated, I'm still a rising sophomore in undergrad so I still have choices.
Most lawyers I know seem to be doing fine financially, I have a friend that graduated from Seattle U and she is doing just fine working for a firm at about 90k. I'm not sure what Seattle U is ranked but I don't hear or see about it too often;)
As for now, I'm going to attempt to raise my GPA and work on my LSAT score in hopes of attaining T14 and landing classic big law.

Thanks for the help

And as for the hostility robot, what has made you become such a douchebag? That link you provided was a potential flame, and the OP in that forum was a Top 25% at Boalt and didn't get a job, that is simply his fault. If you attend UC Berkeley and work at it, you should be fine. Sooo....what is your story robot?

[tyro]

i went from 151 diagnostic to a 167

Yep. And then with your 3.5 and 167 you can get into a T25 at sticker or close to it, or a T50 with some decent money. The T25 will give you okay job prospects but not OK enough to offset the debt since you had to pay sticker. You'll come out of the T50 with less debt, but less job prospects. The cost of job prospects will be debt. In either case it probably won't be enough to offset the risk of graduating in a field in which:

- a 20% decline in starting pay in just one year has been seen
- only two thirds graduate into a job that actually requires a JD
- close to 50% of the most recent graduating class is either unemployed, working part-time, or working in a temp gig
- the BLS itself estimates "keen competition" and about 30,000 new openings per year to service the needs of 49,000 graduates each year
- among those jobs, many more will be low-paid temp gigs, as agencies predict a cumulative 25% increase of temp hiring over the next two years
- if there is a bad year economically, your offer can be retracted by a law firm just like that (I've seen it happen)
- your fallback idea of getting a gov't job is proven laughable by the hiring freezes that will only stay in place and intensify after congress passes more spending cuts

The golden age of the lawyer is over. Sorry. OP, you probably should not go, then you can laugh at those of us who did later.

Thanks for that, MTal.

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 3#p4614023

I know this may blow your mongrel mind away, but after you're done shitting in your britches, take inventory of your life and ask yourself if this is really what you want out of it. (Directed at OP, not you)

Just read that entire post that you linked and found it to be pretty depressing, especially the family photos being tossed in a pile. I personally kind of like having you guys around because it's good to have people who have experienced the pitfalls of any profession and are willing to warn others of the possibilities. I know someone who had to work at a grocery store after attending a T2 law school, and that was in a different economic era. He eventually found a firm job though. Hearing this kind of stuff definitely makes me think that shooting for the local T40 and about 50k in debt might be the best move. I know some recent ugrads who are 30-40k in debt and I think they will be all right even if they have to start out at say 30k/year. Damn though, I think I would rather just give up temporarily and look for some assistant manager gig at a pizza joint than have to do doc review.

[robotclubmember]

Well, is there anything else to fall back on?
I'm an economics major at DePaul University, and I'd be faced taking a job in the financial sector or either going to grad school. Taking a financial position, I wouldn't be in debt but I'd probably be stuck at 40/50k for awhile not really doing what I'd like to do.
As stated, I'm still a rising sophomore in undergrad so I still have choices.
Most lawyers I know seem to be doing fine financially, I have a friend that graduated from Seattle U and she is doing just fine working for a firm at about 90k. I'm not sure what Seattle U is ranked but I don't hear or see about it too often;)
As for now, I'm going to attempt to raise my GPA and work on my LSAT score in hopes of attaining T14 and landing classic big law.

Thanks for the help

And as for the hostility robot, what has made you become such a douchebag? That link you provided was a potential flame, and the OP in that forum was a Top 25% at Boalt and didn't get a job, that is simply his fault. If you attend UC Berkeley and work at it, you should be fine. Sooo....what is your story robot?

"Simply" his fault? That's ignorant nonsense, look at the facts. And look at your brilliant plan. Doubling down on a useless lib art degree for a useless law degree is a bad plan. If you're a sophomore and already know you don't want to work econ, why are you doing it? Can't you change majors?

And the hostility is because I gave you a huge fact set, one that no one is disputing, to give you a fair and realistic picture of what to expect as far as job prospects go. And then you decided that you know more than anyone else on this forum. If you just wanted people to rubber-stamp and validate your pre-determined decision, go talk to your mom. Sure there's an abundance of clearly negative data out there, but you have one friend who makes decent money, therefore law school must be a great decision.

I'm disappointed at OP's refusal to accept that the laws of supply and demand do apply, and at his refusal to acknowledge the data that has been presented, despite being an econ major. To me that seems like the opposite of what an econ major should be. You should be thanking me for giving you real information bro. You should be saying "geez, I did not know that," not defending your lack of information by trying to put up a barrier against the facts. When someone tells me something that conflicts with my currently held view, I at least open myself up to the possibility they have information I don't and work towards resolving the conflicting info. Sometimes that means changing my beliefs. But prospective law school applicants never want to change their beliefs. If they did, they wouldn't be waltzing into a profession in which the for the class of 2010, 13% were unemployed, 11% working part time and 27% in temp jobs. That leaves roughly half in full-time permanent positions, and saddled in significant debt. There are some people like OP that just really think it's never going to happen to them. You see all the statistics on lung cancer and then are shocked to get it after smoking for 30 years. Any attempt to warn them is just ignored, because they always know better than you.

While some of your points are legitimate, you're being a bit dramatic. Yes, the market right now is bad. Very bad. But you aren't immune to the OP's hopefulness, or you wouldn't be going to law school

To the OP: Working hard does not ensure your success in law school or afterward. Everyone will be working hard. If you think that is your easy ticket to a six-figure salary, well, you're objectively wrong. That is all.

He's objectively wrong, sure. But it's not like he's going to let facts get in the way of his brilliant plan.

To people questioning my negativity towards the profession which appears to conflict with my own desire to go to law school, first of all understand that if I had this data available to me a year ago, as a rational actor in our economy I would not have decided to go to law school. I'm not going to fall prey to the sunk cost fallacy though, as in, if I am dissatisfied with my outcomes after 1L, I will drop out. That being said I do have connections to my local market and am going to a school I like (lower T14) with decent money. I have a career to fall back on also. Most importantly, I have a genuine interest in the law, not just a desire to get a law degree because I didn't know what to do with my ugrad degree.

If I were sitting around with a 151 and a 3.5, I wouldn't be kidding myself. I would show a little reality appreciation for what the situation is. Law is like professional sports in way (albeit less severe). If you make big leagues, you're set, but most people don't. Lebron James shouldn't go around advocating a career in basketball as a realistic way to put food on the table just because it worked out for him. But Lebron James shouldn't have let himself get talked out of basketball by some jobber who it didn't work out for either. There are some (albeit dwindling) opportunities in law for the right people. I think I'm one of them but could be proven laughably wrong at the end of 1L and am willing to accept that possibility and react intelligently to it.

[itsirtou]

My family's financial background will enable me to attend any choice of school without fear of debt.

I often see a lot of gloom and doom on this site but I feel like a lot of it is unwarranted.

In my opinion, work your ass off and don't bee the ones that end up as low-paid temps. But thanks for all the positive advice, it really helps to be told to fuck off and do something else.

lol are you serious. your parents are going to pay for your law school, but you're bemused that people on this site are "doom and gloom" when they don't know if they'll be able to get a job to pay off their own loans.