Do you recommend I declare myself African?

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rgndvo
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Re: Do you recommend I declare myself African?

Postby rgndvo » Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:47 pm

afitouri wrote:I've already decided I'm going to put other.

Sure, I identify more with AA than with Caucasian. I'm absolutely not Caucasian. But I'm technically not black either. I am a literal African American.

I've already made my conclusions.


You should do what makes you comfortable, so I'd recommend check "other." You shouldn't feel bad about asking this question, especially since you aren't white, and clearly feel uncomfortable checking that box too (despite what LSAC might try to categorize you as).

I have to say that I think many people are talking out of their hats when it comes to AA. Do schools really check (for example) "how black" one is? Moreover, many of those who are admonishing OP here tell other TLS'ers with very tenuous claims to an ethnicity (e.g. 1/8 NA but "carded") to go ahead and check it.

So long as the racial definitions on applications remain fairly nebulous and open-ended, my position is that everyone should check the box with which they honestly identify.

rgndvo
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Re: Do you recommend I declare myself African?

Postby rgndvo » Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:58 pm

lawgod wrote:
Cartman wrote:
It's been stated before, but don't try and pull the AA card on this to try and get URM status. It should be beneath you.

This reminds me a lot at looking at legislative intent within the law, something that all good little 1L students will learn about: look at the intent of the law (or in this case policy) when it was enacted and try and find out what it's aim was. Granting URM's an easier ticket to law school (numbers wise) was aimed at diversifying the school and giving those without equal means a chance to law school. So, if you're white, you lived a middle-class white life, you were born in America, you had the same access to law school advice/programs/etc. that every other white kid did, put that you're white.

You're just going to piss people off attempting to get a leg up where you don't deserve one.


Would you say the the same thing to a real AA whose ancestors were brought as slaves, and whose parents grew up in the segregated South, but who personally grew up middle class and had the same access etc.?

(Mods, if this is ban-able, just delete it. I'm not a good enough law student to figure out your rules.)


Nubian Americans are unquestionably "black," yet few are descended from slaves. The President of the United States is not descended from slaves, yet no one questions his race.

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kapachino
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Re: Do you recommend I declare myself African?

Postby kapachino » Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:45 pm

afitouri wrote:I've already decided I'm going to put other.

Sure, I identify more with AA than with Caucasian. I'm absolutely not Caucasian. But I'm technically not black either. I am a literal African American.

I've already made my conclusions.


You seem to misunderstand what African-American actually is. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American

The Census Bureau and LSAC identify you as being white, so putting "other" is just an outright lie. Stop trying to get extra considerations where there are none to be had. Also, when you talk about your heritage in your DS, adcomms may give you some serious side eye for not owning up to the prescribed box.

African-American in this country = black. Politically incorrect, but it is reality. You are Libyan American. You don't see Americans of Irish, German, or Scottish descent calling themselves "European American". :/

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Emma.
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Re: Do you recommend I declare myself African?

Postby Emma. » Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:51 pm

afitouri wrote: But I'm technically not black either.


Is there some non-technical way you ARE black? :lol:

rgndvo
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Re: Do you recommend I declare myself African?

Postby rgndvo » Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:02 pm

kapachino wrote:
afitouri wrote:I've already decided I'm going to put other.

Sure, I identify more with AA than with Caucasian. I'm absolutely not Caucasian. But I'm technically not black either. I am a literal African American.

I've already made my conclusions.


You seem to misunderstand what African-American actually is. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American

The Census Bureau and LSAC identify you as being white, so putting "other" is just an outright lie. Stop trying to get extra considerations where there are none to be had. Also, when you talk about your heritage in your DS, adcomms may give you some serious side eye for not owning up to the prescribed box.

African-American in this country = black. Politically incorrect, but it is reality. You are Libyan American. You don't see Americans of Irish, German, or Scottish descent calling themselves "European American". :/


You are operating on a misconception, based on the 2000 census, which specifically included North Africans and Arabs under the "White" umbrella term.
The 2010 Census was changed to accomodate the justified grievances of Arabs and North Africans, who were understadably outraged at being classified as White or Caucasian (I just finished a sociology paper entitled "Racial classifiactions in America," so I am fairly well-versed in this stuff), and in fact mounted an entire campaign to demand a change: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rADoPrMsQt4
Thus were no North Africans or Arabs ethnicities characterized as "White" on the 2010 census, or the most recent government "definitions" of the various races.
Given this fact, as well as the fact that race on the LSAC is self-identified , OP would most certainly not be lying by classifying himself as "other."

Mainstream biology and anthropology asserts that race is a social construct. Given this fact, one's "race" can be interpreted to reflect what society percieves him or her to be. American society does not consider Saudis and Libyans to be "white."

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danquayle
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Re: Do you recommend I declare myself African?

Postby danquayle » Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:24 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
rgndvo wrote:In any case, it's ridiculous to compare a North African claiming minority status with a white guy doing the same. Do Libyans really enjoy "White Privilege?"

:shock: WTF?

The race question on law school apps isn't asking what privilege you have. It's asking what race you are. If you're a white guy from Libya, then it doesn't matter whether you've actually enjoyed any privilege from it or not, you're still white. Being underprivileged does not make you black, and it's absurd how many times that's needed to be said in this thread.


Historically the one drop rule has applied to determining African-American ancestry in the United States. Given this reality and the reality that there is certainly some Sub-Saharan African admixture inherent in the Libyan population makeup, would you concede that OP could potentially be considered racially AA for the purposes which LSAC asks?

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kapachino
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Re: Do you recommend I declare myself African?

Postby kapachino » Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:29 pm

danquayle wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
rgndvo wrote:In any case, it's ridiculous to compare a North African claiming minority status with a white guy doing the same. Do Libyans really enjoy "White Privilege?"

:shock: WTF?

The race question on law school apps isn't asking what privilege you have. It's asking what race you are. If you're a white guy from Libya, then it doesn't matter whether you've actually enjoyed any privilege from it or not, you're still white. Being underprivileged does not make you black, and it's absurd how many times that's needed to be said in this thread.


Historically the one drop rule has applied to determining African-American ancestry in the United States. Given this reality and the reality that there is certainly some Sub-Saharan African admixture inherent in the Libyan population makeup, would you concede that OP could potentially be considered racially AA for the purposes which LSAC asks?


I'm surprised that you stopped short of invoking the "Out of Africa" theory. :roll: The one-drop rule applied to descendants of American slaves, not people grasping at straws to get considerations they so richly do not deserve.

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danquayle
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Re: Do you recommend I declare myself African?

Postby danquayle » Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:35 pm

kapachino wrote:
danquayle wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
rgndvo wrote:In any case, it's ridiculous to compare a North African claiming minority status with a white guy doing the same. Do Libyans really enjoy "White Privilege?"

:shock: WTF?

The race question on law school apps isn't asking what privilege you have. It's asking what race you are. If you're a white guy from Libya, then it doesn't matter whether you've actually enjoyed any privilege from it or not, you're still white. Being underprivileged does not make you black, and it's absurd how many times that's needed to be said in this thread.


Historically the one drop rule has applied to determining African-American ancestry in the United States. Given this reality and the reality that there is certainly some Sub-Saharan African admixture inherent in the Libyan population makeup, would you concede that OP could potentially be considered racially AA for the purposes which LSAC asks?


I'm surprised that you stopped short of invoking the "Out of Africa" theory. :roll: The one-drop rule applied to descendants of American slaves, not people grasping at straws to get considerations they so richly do not deserve.


Wow, really? So Obama and Hakeen Olajuwon are not black? Good to know. I'll spread the word.
Last edited by danquayle on Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TheFriendlyBarber
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Re: Do you recommend I declare myself African?

Postby TheFriendlyBarber » Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:36 pm

Put whatever the hell you want

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baconpuffs
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Re: Do you recommend I declare myself African?

Postby baconpuffs » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:43 pm

TheFriendlyBarber wrote:Put whatever the hell you want

/thread

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Blessedassurance
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Re: Do you recommend I declare myself African?

Postby Blessedassurance » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:51 pm

danquayle wrote:Wow, really? So Obama and Hakeen Olajuwon are not black? Good to know. I'll spread the word.


Olajuwon is not African-American, he's Nigerian-American. That is what the "black" in AA/Black is supposed to account for. Olajuwon's children will be properly considered "African-American". If Obama's father had been naturalized, he wouldn't have turned into an African-American, he would have been a Kenyan-American and a black man.

The OP is neither African-American or black. He's an American with non-black ("light-skinned", according to him) ancestors from Libya. He is considered white for all practical purposes, if he insists on protesting, it is within his right to check other or simply not answer at all. He cannot check African-American or black however, since that is clearly a lie.

He knew the answer to the question before he posted. As has been said numerous times, he should do whatever the hell he wants
Last edited by Blessedassurance on Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: Do you recommend I declare myself African?

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:51 pm

Why are we still talking about this? I don't care what he is, but it's clear he's not black. If he chooses to put it down well so be it. What can anybody do? He knows he's not black but he wan't the boost given to black people in this country. No matter what anybody says he's going to try his best to get it. Hopefully he gets caught and he isn't allowed to practice, but seriously 8 pages saying the same thing. Is this what law school is like?

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kapachino
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Re: Do you recommend I declare myself African?

Postby kapachino » Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:45 am

danquayle wrote:

Wow, really? So Obama and Hakeen Olajuwon are not black? Good to know. I'll spread the word.



lolwut.

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birdlaw117
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Re: Do you recommend I declare myself African?

Postby birdlaw117 » Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:26 am

afitouri wrote:I've already decided I'm going to put other.

Sure, I identify more with AA than with Caucasian. I'm absolutely not Caucasian. But I'm technically not black either. I am a literal African American.

I've already made my conclusions.

The thing is... you absolutely are Caucasian. At least as Caucasian as most white people...

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Borhas
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Re: Do you recommend I declare myself African?

Postby Borhas » Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:32 am

kapachino wrote:
afitouri wrote:I've already decided I'm going to put other.

Sure, I identify more with AA than with Caucasian. I'm absolutely not Caucasian. But I'm technically not black either. I am a literal African American.

I've already made my conclusions.


You seem to misunderstand what African-American actually is. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American

The Census Bureau and LSAC identify you as being white, so putting "other" is just an outright lie. Stop trying to get extra considerations where there are none to be had. Also, when you talk about your heritage in your DS, adcomms may give you some serious side eye for not owning up to the prescribed box.

African-American in this country = black. Politically incorrect, but it is reality. You are Libyan American. You don't see Americans of Irish, German, or Scottish descent calling themselves "European American". :/


oh oh here comes the heritage police

hide yo kids hide wives hide you birf certificates

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yngblkgifted
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Re: Do you recommend I declare myself African?

Postby yngblkgifted » Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:33 am

OP's a douche.

/thread.

caminante
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Re: Do you recommend I declare myself African?

Postby caminante » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:30 am

rgndvo wrote:
kapachino wrote:
afitouri wrote:I've already decided I'm going to put other.

Sure, I identify more with AA than with Caucasian. I'm absolutely not Caucasian. But I'm technically not black either. I am a literal African American.

I've already made my conclusions.


You seem to misunderstand what African-American actually is. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American

The Census Bureau and LSAC identify you as being white, so putting "other" is just an outright lie. Stop trying to get extra considerations where there are none to be had. Also, when you talk about your heritage in your DS, adcomms may give you some serious side eye for not owning up to the prescribed box.

African-American in this country = black. Politically incorrect, but it is reality. You are Libyan American. You don't see Americans of Irish, German, or Scottish descent calling themselves "European American". :/


You are operating on a misconception, based on the 2000 census, which specifically included North Africans and Arabs under the "White" umbrella term.
The 2010 Census was changed to accomodate the justified grievances of Arabs and North Africans, who were understadably outraged at being classified as White or Caucasian (I just finished a sociology paper entitled "Racial classifiactions in America," so I am fairly well-versed in this stuff), and in fact mounted an entire campaign to demand a change: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rADoPrMsQt4
Thus were no North Africans or Arabs ethnicities characterized as "White" on the 2010 census, or the most recent government "definitions" of the various races.
Given this fact, as well as the fact that race on the LSAC is self-identified , OP would most certainly not be lying by classifying himself as "other."

Mainstream biology and anthropology asserts that race is a social construct. Given this fact, one's "race" can be interpreted to reflect what society percieves him or her to be. American society does not consider Saudis and Libyans to be "white."



This. Thank you.

As I was scrolling through this thread I was really surprised as to how uninformed the people commenting were. Race = Social Construct. Therefore, saying AA is about race not ancestry is nonsense. There are people who look black from the DR who call themselves white or Latino. There are people who look white in the US that call themselves AA. Get over it. If he self identifies as AA and he's from Libya, then he can indicate that on his forms.

OP, you are not in the wrong here.

flcath
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Re: Do you recommend I declare myself African?

Postby flcath » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:37 am

Lesson learned ITT:

If you create a thread that is directly critical of AA on TLS, you get mod-locked and aggressively tempbanned.

But make it into an allegory, and you're golden.
Last edited by flcath on Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Do you recommend I declare myself African?

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:05 am

rgndvo wrote:I have to say that I think many people are talking out of their hats when it comes to AA. Do schools really check (for example) "how black" one is?

Nobody, as far as I can tell, said that schools will check and that's why he shouldn't do it. Congratulations on defeating that straw man.

What people have said, repeatedly, is that it would be lying for OP to misrepresent himself as black when he isn't, and that he could eventually get in trouble for it if he ever said or did something that got him caught. People have also said that regardless of whether or not he gets caught, it's still not a good idea to lie on your applications just because it's a bad way to start off a career based on ethics and honest representations.

Putting "other" doesn't strike me as dishonest. If he doesn't consider his background to be either Caucasian or black, then it's a fair answer, and he can explain away as much as he wants. I know of some Arab-Americans who do the same because they feel "Arab" should be an option and they shouldn't be lumped in with Caucasians.

The thing about "other" is that it has no specific meaning, it invites explanation. It's not like "African-American", which in this country has a specific meaning and refers to people of racially black descent.

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Re: Do you recommend I declare myself African?

Postby flcath » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:15 am

vanwinkle wrote:
rgndvo wrote:I have to say that I think many people are talking out of their hats when it comes to AA. Do schools really check (for example) "how black" one is?

Nobody, as far as I can tell, said that schools will check and that's why he shouldn't do it. Congratulations on defeating that straw man.

What people have said, repeatedly, is that it would be lying for OP to misrepresent himself as black when he isn't, and that he could eventually get in trouble for it if he ever said or did something that got him caught. People have also said that regardless of whether or not he gets caught, it's still not a good idea to lie on your applications just because it's a bad way to start off a career based on ethics and honest representations.

Putting "other" doesn't strike me as dishonest. If he doesn't consider his background to be either Caucasian or black, then it's a fair answer, and he can explain away as much as he wants. I know of some Arab-Americans who do the same because they feel "Arab" should be an option and they shouldn't be lumped in with Caucasians.

The thing about "other" is that it has no specific meaning, it invites explanation. It's not like "African-American", which in this country has a specific meaning and refers to people of racially black descent.

Obviously I didn't read this whole thread, but did it really take 8 pages to arrive upon this (obvious) result?

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vanwinkle
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Re: Do you recommend I declare myself African?

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:18 am

caminante wrote:As I was scrolling through this thread I was really surprised as to how uninformed the people commenting were. Race = Social Construct. Therefore, saying AA is about race not ancestry is nonsense. There are people who look black from the DR who call themselves white or Latino. There are people who look white in the US that call themselves AA. Get over it. If he self identifies as AA and he's from Libya, then he can indicate that on his forms.

I love people who sound smug when they're being this stupid.

AA is about both race and ancestry because ancestry is what leads to your current racial makeup. African-American is defined (in dictionaries, on Wikipedia, by LSAC, and elsewhere) as those with black/sub-Saharan African racial ancestry. You can refer to that as a "social construct" all you want, but it's a social construct you still have to understand and follow. If you know how a social construct is defined, it's still misrepresentation to claim you fit in it when you know its construction means that you don't.

Sure, people from the DR do that. The catch is that they're both. If you're both AA and Latino, then of course you can pick which of those to identify with. Either is correct. But you can't choose to represent yourself as something you're not.

You can't just go, "I was born in Hong Kong so that means I'm racially Asian". If your parents were both white (and there have been a lot of Anglos in HK, so this is possible) you're still Caucasian. However, someone with an Anglo parent and a Chinese parent is of both Caucasian and Asian descent.

It doesn't matter where you were born. It's not a geography test. It matters what your ancestry is, because that's largely how race is defined, especially on these census questionnaires.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Do you recommend I declare myself African?

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:19 am

flcath wrote:Obviously I didn't read this whole thread, but did it really take 8 pages to arrive upon this (obvious) result?

No, it's been said repeatedly for 8 pages, and then ignored by the next idiot who comes along and tries to be clever or contrary and claim AA doesn't mean what it by definition means.

flcath
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Re: Do you recommend I declare myself African?

Postby flcath » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:22 am

vanwinkle wrote:
flcath wrote:Obviously I didn't read this whole thread, but did it really take 8 pages to arrive upon this (obvious) result?

No, it's been said repeatedly for 8 pages, and then ignored by the next idiot who comes along and tries to be clever or contrary and claim AA doesn't mean what it by definition means.

Ah. Pretty standard fare, then.

flexityflex86
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Re: Do you recommend I declare myself African?

Postby flexityflex86 » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:25 am

vanwinkle wrote:
joncrooshal wrote:I was just having this discussion with my friend who lives in our rental house (black guy). Had a good laugh about the idiocy of the term itself.

It is a pretty stupid term, since it invokes geography but is used to represent race. However, the poor choice of language doesn't excuse OP from actually answering the question truthfully, and if the question is asking about racial identity, the fact that the term is stupid doesn't change the fact that he's misrepresenting his race by checking black when he's white.

But does the question ask black? If it asks OP what he identifies with, it might well be african american. If he upholds Libyan customs whatever those are, is aware of his culture and calls himself Libyan, he is African American. I think including a diversity statement where it's clear that you identify as Libyan, but are not black might be a good call. Schools will still give you the URM bonus, but it won't be the same as being black.

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Emma.
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Re: Do you recommend I declare myself African?

Postby Emma. » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:31 am

flexityflex86 wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
joncrooshal wrote:I was just having this discussion with my friend who lives in our rental house (black guy). Had a good laugh about the idiocy of the term itself.

It is a pretty stupid term, since it invokes geography but is used to represent race. However, the poor choice of language doesn't excuse OP from actually answering the question truthfully, and if the question is asking about racial identity, the fact that the term is stupid doesn't change the fact that he's misrepresenting his race by checking black when he's white.

But does the question ask black? If it asks OP what he identifies with, it might well be african american. If he upholds Libyan customs whatever those are, is aware of his culture and calls himself Libyan, he is African American. I think including a diversity statement where it's clear that you identify as Libyan, but are not black might be a good call. Schools will still give you the URM bonus, but it won't be the same as being black.


OP is American and identifies with Libya. Libya is within the African continent. So to that limited extent it is true to say that OP identifies himself as an "African American". The point is that OP is fully aware that claiming African American may not be semantically untrue in his case, it would be misleading based on the common usage of the term. I think it is pretty clear at this point that OP does not self identify as African American in the way the term is commonly understood.




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