Redemption and top LS admissions?

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85047
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Redemption and top LS admissions?

Postby 85047 » Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:22 pm

What amount of redemption is necessary to mitigate expulsion from an Ivy for plagiarism? Do you know of anyone at a top five law school that was admitted after being expelled from his/her undergrad institution?

I am fully cognizant that a school would rather admit a convicted criminal than a plagarist.

A long time ago—10+ years—a student was expelled for copying 314 words verbatim. It was the student’s first offense of any type and although the student remains deeply bitter at the kangaroo court which enacted the banishment, the student realizes that he/she must bear responsibility for this infraction;parity in punishment is never a given.

Since that time, the student has done ok. The person was injured in battle while in uniform (received a PH), worked in the intelligence community (as a contractor), and has been a FSO for a few years. Prior to joining the diplomatic corp, the person was one of the small cadre of people who went to Iraq after the invasion and held a number of leadership positions in the occupation authority—including serving as a program manager/technical lead for a large social services program that endures to this day and helps millions of people annually. ***Yes, those stories about 23 year olds designing and implementing major initiatives like the Iraqi stock market are true. And surprisingly, some of them were actually well designed and quite effective.***

Some of this person’s contributions in conflict zones would invoke the raised eyebrows of incredulity if they were to be mentioned on this message board: personally spending $80M in cash on various reconstruction projects with, at best, cursory oversight. War provides unparalleled opportunities for experience and advancement.

The purpose of this post is not to focus on contributions, but rather repercussions. I am not like most of you, my scarlet letter, although well hidden, is the most important factor for me in any admissions process. In essence, my performance, work history, and record are that of an Ivy League professional sans the actual academic pedigree of a college degree and graduate degree. When one is in the room and proves themself, nobody really questions anyone about their background. The only time that it has been mentioned in my professional life—and I don’t broadcast it---was when I was being investigated for my security clearance. Obviously, it was granted.

I have a great job now; I love being a diplomat, and sometimes think I should be content with what I have. But I am a politician at heart, have always wanted to be a federal prosecutor, and my insecurities drive me irrationally to graduate from an Ivy League school.

Enough of this drivel, do any of you know of anyone at HLS, YLS, or SLS that was expelled from their ugrad institution? My LSAT and GPA are low but within the acceptable range for the aforementioned schools. I don’t have an ugrad degree but do have a grad degree from a leading European university.

Thanks.
Last edited by 85047 on Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lawgod
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Re: What is considered worthy of admission?

Postby lawgod » Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:28 pm

Great story.
Are you sure you can get in anywhere without an actual Ugrad of some sort? Even one from an online college that basically sells them.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: What is considered worthy of admission?

Postby Bildungsroman » Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:32 pm

85047 wrote:What amount of redemption is necessary to mitigate expulsion from an Ivy for plagiarism? Do you know of anyone at a top five law school that was admitted after being expelled from his/her undergrad institution?

I am fully cognizant that a school would rather admit a convicted criminal than a plagarist.

A long time ago—10+ years—a student was expelled for copying 314 words verbatim. It was the student’s first offense of any type and although the student remains deeply bitter at the kangaroo court which enacted the banishment, the student realizes that he/she must bear responsibility for this infraction;parity in punishment is never a given.

Since that time, the student has done ok. The person was injured in battle while in uniform (received a PH), worked in the intelligence community (as a contractor), and has been a FSO for a few years. Prior to joining the diplomatic corp, the person was one of the small cadre of people who went to Iraq after the invasion and held a number of leadership positions in the occupation authority—including serving as a program manager/technical lead for a large social services program that endures to this day and helps millions of people annually. ***Yes, those stories about 23 year olds designing and implementing major initiatives like the Iraqi stock market are true. And surprisingly, some of them were actually well designed and quite effective.***

Some of this person’s contributions in conflict zones would invoke the raised eyebrows of incredulity if they were to be mentioned on this message board: personally spending $80M in cash on various reconstruction projects with, at best, cursory oversight. War provides unparalleled opportunities for experience and advancement.

The purpose of this post is not to focus on contributions, but rather repercussions. I am not like most of you, my scarlet letter, although well hidden, is the most important factor for me in any admissions process. In essence, my performance, work history, and record are that of an Ivy League professional sans the actual academic pedigree of a college degree and graduate degree. When one is in the room and proves themself, nobody really questions anyone about their background. The only time that it has been mentioned in my professional life—and I don’t broadcast it---was when I was being investigated for my security clearance. Obviously, it was granted.

I have a great job now; I love being a diplomat, and sometimes think I should be content with what I have. But I am a politician at heart, have always wanted to be a federal prosecutor, and my insecurities drive me irrationally to graduate from an Ivy League school.

Enough of this drivel, do any of you know of anyone at HLS, YLS, or SLS that was expelled from their ugrad institution? My LSAT and GPA are low but within the acceptable range for the aforementioned schools. I don’t have an ugrad degree but do have a grad degree from a leading European university.

Thanks.

This post was hilarious. QFP.

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Veyron
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Re: What is considered worthy of admission?

Postby Veyron » Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:34 pm

No admission w/o undergrad degree, no exceptions.

bhan87
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Re: What is considered worthy of admission?

Postby bhan87 » Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:38 pm

Even without all the baggage of getting caught plagiarizing, your GPA would still be too low for consideration at HYSCCN

schooner
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Re: What is considered worthy of admission?

Postby schooner » Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:42 pm

...
Last edited by schooner on Sun May 03, 2015 12:35 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PitchO20
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Re: What is considered worthy of admission?

Postby PitchO20 » Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:43 pm

Jesus Christ.

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Verity
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Re: What is considered worthy of admission?

Postby Verity » Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:47 pm

Keep your day job.

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Blessedassurance
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Re: Redemption and top LS admissions?

Postby Blessedassurance » Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:55 pm

Why does one speak about oneself in the third person, Mr Dole?

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Verity
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Re: Redemption and top LS admissions?

Postby Verity » Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:58 pm

Blessedassurance wrote:Why does one speak about oneself in the third person, Mr Dole?


Tu quoque?

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Blessedassurance
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Re: Redemption and top LS admissions?

Postby Blessedassurance » Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:03 pm

Get it?

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sunynp
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Re: Redemption and top LS admissions?

Postby sunynp » Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:06 pm

I have a great job now; I love being a diplomat, and sometimes think I should be content with what I have.


You should talk to some admission people at some schools directly for advice - this is so out there I have no clue what will happen.

Why you want to bother going through the hassle you will have to face to get into law school, get admitted and get a job is beyond me. Let go of the Ivy League dream.

edit PS Thanks for your service even though you were injured and earned the Purple Heart.
Last edited by sunynp on Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

kritarch
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Re: Redemption and top LS admissions?

Postby kritarch » Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:07 pm

Didn't I see this post on another forum? I notice that 85047 took it without attribution. I see someone hasn't been learning from somebody's mistakes.

85047
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Re: Redemption and top LS admissions?

Postby 85047 » Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:09 pm

kritarch wrote:Didn't I see this post on another forum? I notice that 85047 took it without attribution. I see someone hasn't been learning from somebody's mistakes.


you saw something like it. I posted both but under different numerical handles.

schooner
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Re: Redemption and top LS admissions?

Postby schooner » Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:17 pm

...
Last edited by schooner on Sun May 03, 2015 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Redemption and top LS admissions?

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:20 pm

OP: You wrote that your LSAT & GPA are low, but in an acceptable range for Harvard, Yal & Stanford law schools. "Low" isn't really appropriate, Maybe "not perfect" ?

Regardless, apply & see what happens if you have an LSAT score & a GPA. Or call the law schools & ask.

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Verity
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Re: Redemption and top LS admissions?

Postby Verity » Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:23 pm

An undergraduate degree is necessary for admission. Every school makes this pretty clear. Think they're just blowing hot air? Apply and see what happens.

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Blessedassurance
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Re: Redemption and top LS admissions?

Postby Blessedassurance » Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:29 pm

Anyone care to way in on his chances of passing C & F?

85047
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Re: Redemption and top LS admissions?

Postby 85047 » Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:34 pm

Thanks for your replies. I expected to take a bit of heat. Frankly, I deserve it.

Was I “unfairly wronged?” Prolly. Did I bring it upon myself? Absolutely. Can a person who does something bad suffer from a bad and unfair process? Yes. It happens everyday.

For most people, admissions are a combination of grades and LSAT. However, private schools have great leeway in who they admit. There are always nonpublicized exceptions to rules, no matter what is printed on a website.

I am not contending that the OP is worthy of exception.

There are fewer ppl with certain types of credentials—read unique stories-- than there are perfect GPA perfect LSAT folks.
I know of one (and perhaps two) people who went to HBS without an ugrad degree who I worked with in Iraq. One had mediocre grades from a Christian school in Texas.

But I do agree with the CW, the scarlet letter of a plagiarist will be hard to purge.

Let's make things easier. Suppose the OP earns an UGRAD degree from HES or Cal--where the previous expulsion will be a non factor in the admissions process.

Thanks for your advice.
Last edited by 85047 on Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Verity
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Re: Redemption and top LS admissions?

Postby Verity » Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:46 pm

I can see business school, but law school...they're kind of hung up on ethics.

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sunynp
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Re: Redemption and top LS admissions?

Postby sunynp » Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:49 pm

Actually, no one here probably knows what it takes to overcome being expelled. Probably earning a purple heart in service to your country should count for something. The only other idea I have is for you to contact someone like Prof. Stephen Gillers who practices ethics and ask for advice. You should get solid advice from experts before you proceed.

I'm sticking with my initial reaction that you should give up this need for some kind of redemption and just live your life. The future prospects you face after a lot of effort and money don't sound better than what you have now.

85047
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Re: Redemption and top LS admissions?

Postby 85047 » Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:53 pm

Verity wrote:I can see business school, but law school...they're kind of hung up on ethics.


Thanks. Good point.

I should have been clearer, the two people that went to HBS were not expelled. We just held similiar positions and one, perhas two, went to a top grad school without a ugrad degree--and one had medicore grades.

I heard about a Mexican american years ago that spent almost a year in the slammer and went to Stanford Law School, but, as stated earlier, certain people in certain circles would prefer a car thief to a convicted plagarist.

Please bear in mind that this happened a (very) long time ago.

schooner
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Re: Redemption and top LS admissions?

Postby schooner » Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:04 am

85047 wrote:Please bear in mind that this happened a very long time ago.


Yeah, but you still don't think you did anything wrong enough to warrant expulsion. There's no humility in your attitude. It doesn't sound like you want to go to any decent law school so you can practice law; instead it sounds like you think you deserve to go to HYS so you can 1) prove the expulsion was wrong and unfair and 2) "reclaim" the prestige that you think was stolen from you.

You already have a great day job and career. Focus on that.

TheFactor
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Re: Redemption and top LS admissions?

Postby TheFactor » Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:09 am

lol

85047
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Re: Redemption and top LS admissions?

Postby 85047 » Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:30 am

schooner wrote:
85047 wrote:Please bear in mind that this happened a very long time ago.


Yeah, but you still don't think you did anything wrong enough to warrant expulsion. There's no humility in your attitude. It doesn't sound like you want to go to any decent law school so you can practice law; instead it sounds like you think you deserve to go to HYS so you can 1) prove the expulsion was wrong and unfair and 2) "reclaim" the prestige that you think was stolen from you.

You already have a great day job and career. Focus on that.


You are correct on all accounts. If I did get a HYS degree I may just go back to same job I have now.

Re humility? Yes, Yes. I am sorry for what I did. It was wrong. Fullstop.

But what’s illogical about the possibility that a transgression was not handled equitably. There is injustice in this world. Life ain’t fair. Most people who have seen the details of this situation agree. I am sure that others have no sympathy.

I think HYS unlikely. The baggage is just too unyielding. I did send out a feeler to a former colleague who know teaches at one of the aforementioned schools and I will wait to see what comes back.
Last edited by 85047 on Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:37 am, edited 2 times in total.




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