"The Coming Crunch for Law Schools" by a WUSTL Law Professor

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flcath
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Re: "The Coming Crunch for Law Schools" by a WUSTL Law Professor

Postby flcath » Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:14 am

flcath wrote:
taxguy wrote:Applicants might include transfer and LLM applicants as an example. Frankly, I found that chart a bit misleading too.

I dunno man; I don't think that explanation cuts it (transfers and LLMs are a drop in the bucket, and there are always gonna be some applicants who can't get in or choose not to matriculate). We must be missing something here.

And BAM, we are.

The red line and the blue line are on different scales (the left-side axis and right-side axis, respectively). They just superimposed them on top of each other to show the purported effect that changes in one have on the other.

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things fall apart
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Re: "The Coming Crunch for Law Schools" by a WUSTL Law Professor

Postby things fall apart » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:47 am

CanadianWolf wrote:Yet the loans live on.


Capitalism has never and can never survive/thrive with informed, intelligent consumers.

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Re: "The Coming Crunch for Law Schools" by a WUSTL Law Professor

Postby flcath » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:11 am

things fall apart wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:Yet the loans live on.


Capitalism has never and can never survive/thrive with informed, intelligent consumers.

I'm pretty sure you meant "without."

And the law school game isn't capitalism... these TTT fucks aren't paying out of pocket, nor would they. It's because our government provides them with $150K for law school--an amount it wouldn't give them to spend on a BMW, booze, and pot--that they figure they might as well use it.

Frankly, law school is a good decision for most T4 kids (I'm visiting a friend at a T4 right now... he's transferring up to a T1), even though it will likely result in their financial ruin. It gives them a non-trivial (we'll say 20%) chance at success that they otherwise wouldn't have had.

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Re: "The Coming Crunch for Law Schools" by a WUSTL Law Professor

Postby flcath » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:14 am

Look at it this way:

if you're a homeless person who spends his time giving blowies in the park for crack, and the government comes to you and offers you a $200K loan to spend on lottery tickets (and only on lottery tickets), would you really turn it down?

(a) you have zero chance at success where you currently are,
(b) the gubmint's footing the bill,
(c) if you don't win the powerball, it's not like you'll actually have to pay off the debt, and they don't throw you in jail,
(d) scratching off all those tickets will give you a renewed purpose while you're doing it, and make you feel less miserable about your life.

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bk1
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Re: "The Coming Crunch for Law Schools" by a WUSTL Law Professor

Postby bk1 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:18 am

flcath wrote:Look at it this way:

if you're a homeless person who spends his time giving blowies in the park for crack, and the government comes to you and offers you a $200K loan to spend on lottery tickets (and only on lottery tickets), would you really turn it down?

(a) you have zero chance at success where you currently are,
(b) the gubmint's footing the bill,
(c) if you don't win the powerball, it's not like you'll actually have to pay off the debt, and they don't throw you in jail,
(d) scratching off all those tickets will give you a renewed purpose while you're doing it, and make you feel less miserable about your life.

Kids who go to TTTTs are college graduates, not high school dropouts. I'm pretty sure most of them would be far better off starting at an entry level job than go to a shit law school.

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Re: "The Coming Crunch for Law Schools" by a WUSTL Law Professor

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:21 am

bk1 wrote:
flcath wrote:Look at it this way:

if you're a homeless person who spends his time giving blowies in the park for crack, and the government comes to you and offers you a $200K loan to spend on lottery tickets (and only on lottery tickets), would you really turn it down?

(a) you have zero chance at success where you currently are,
(b) the gubmint's footing the bill,
(c) if you don't win the powerball, it's not like you'll actually have to pay off the debt, and they don't throw you in jail,
(d) scratching off all those tickets will give you a renewed purpose while you're doing it, and make you feel less miserable about your life.

Kids who go to TTTTs are college graduates, not high school dropouts. I'm pretty sure most of them would be far better off starting at an entry level job than go to a shit law school.


This assumes they could get a job. Isn't the % of unemployed college grads at something like 50%+ now?

flcath
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Re: "The Coming Crunch for Law Schools" by a WUSTL Law Professor

Postby flcath » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:22 am

bk1 wrote:
flcath wrote:Look at it this way:

if you're a homeless person who spends his time giving blowies in the park for crack, and the government comes to you and offers you a $200K loan to spend on lottery tickets (and only on lottery tickets), would you really turn it down?

(a) you have zero chance at success where you currently are,
(b) the gubmint's footing the bill,
(c) if you don't win the powerball, it's not like you'll actually have to pay off the debt, and they don't throw you in jail,
(d) scratching off all those tickets will give you a renewed purpose while you're doing it, and make you feel less miserable about your life.

Kids who go to TTTTs are college graduates, not high school dropouts. I'm pretty sure most of them would be far better off starting at an entry level job than go to a shit law school.

False.

Yours is a common (and admirable) sentiment of really smart kids who lack exposure to really dumb kids.

But I am at the Thomas M. Cooley Law School as I muther-fucking type this. Some of these kids would be considered by their co-workers to be "the dumbest one here" if they were employed at a fucking nail salon.

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things fall apart
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Re: "The Coming Crunch for Law Schools" by a WUSTL Law Professor

Postby things fall apart » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:23 am

flcath wrote:
things fall apart wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:Yet the loans live on.


Capitalism has never and can never survive/thrive with informed, intelligent consumers.

I'm pretty sure you meant "without."

And the law school game isn't capitalism... these TTT fucks aren't paying out of pocket, nor would they. It's because our government provides them with $150K for law school--an amount it wouldn't give them to spend on a BMW, booze, and pot--that they figure they might as well use it.

Frankly, law school is a good decision for most T4 kids (I'm visiting a friend at a T4 right now... he's transferring up to a T1), even though it will likely result in their financial ruin. It gives them a non-trivial (we'll say 20%) chance at success that they otherwise wouldn't have had.



No, I mean with. As in, if all consumers were perfectly informed, intelligent decision makers, and apt financial thinkers, Capitalism wouldn't rage in the form it does and always will.

Other than that I'll just avoid the rest of your statements in the name of not completely wasting my f***ing time.

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bk1
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Re: "The Coming Crunch for Law Schools" by a WUSTL Law Professor

Postby bk1 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:30 am

flcath wrote:False.

Yours is a common (and admirable) sentiment of really smart kids who lack exposure to really dumb kids.

But I am at the Thomas M. Cooley Law School as I muther-fucking type this. Some of these kids would be considered by their co-workers to be "the dumbest one here" if they were employed at a fucking nail salon.

If these kids are that dumb, how would they make it in an interview with a firm? I mean if they couldn't work their way into management as a paper pusher or at a fast food joint, I doubt they'd be able to do well in a biglaw interview.

But the world always needs ditch diggers.

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Re: "The Coming Crunch for Law Schools" by a WUSTL Law Professor

Postby flcath » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:31 am

things fall apart wrote:
flcath wrote:
things fall apart wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:Yet the loans live on.


Capitalism has never and can never survive/thrive with informed, intelligent consumers.

I'm pretty sure you meant "without."

And the law school game isn't capitalism... these TTT fucks aren't paying out of pocket, nor would they. It's because our government provides them with $150K for law school--an amount it wouldn't give them to spend on a BMW, booze, and pot--that they figure they might as well use it.

Frankly, law school is a good decision for most T4 kids (I'm visiting a friend at a T4 right now... he's transferring up to a T1), even though it will likely result in their financial ruin. It gives them a non-trivial (we'll say 20%) chance at success that they otherwise wouldn't have had.



No, I mean with. As in, if all consumers were perfectly informed, intelligent decision makers, and apt financial thinkers, Capitalism wouldn't rage in the form it does and always will.

Other than that I'll just avoid the rest of your statements in the name of not completely wasting my f***ing time.

Dude we can say fuck on here.

Are you a TTT advocate? B/c in a strange way, I am too (as you can see).

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Re: "The Coming Crunch for Law Schools" by a WUSTL Law Professor

Postby flcath » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:51 am

bk1 wrote:
flcath wrote:False.

Yours is a common (and admirable) sentiment of really smart kids who lack exposure to really dumb kids.

But I am at the Thomas M. Cooley Law School as I muther-fucking type this. Some of these kids would be considered by their co-workers to be "the dumbest one here" if they were employed at a fucking nail salon.

If these kids are that dumb, how would they make it in an interview with a firm? I mean if they couldn't work their way into management as a paper pusher or at a fast food joint, I doubt they'd be able to do well in a biglaw interview.

But the world always needs ditch diggers.

Some of these kids may find a way to make it as solos. Cooley is geared towards that (they seriously have a "small firm concentration" that requires courses in sales, PR, and marketing), and it's 100x more about entrepreneurship than legal acumen.

The key thing to remember is that the #1 thing that separates a college kid from a 20-year-old working kid is family SES, not intelligence or work ethic. I would dare say that if you come from a family that makes a six-figure income and pushes you towards college, their is no limit (short of being literally retarded) to how dumb you can be and still get in and get through.

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Re: "The Coming Crunch for Law Schools" by a WUSTL Law Professor

Postby things fall apart » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:54 am

flcath wrote:
Dude we can say fuck on here.

Are you a TTT advocate? B/c in a strange way, I am too (as you can see).



I know we can but I'd prefer to not be as brazen.

And no I'm not a TTT advocate. I was actually taking a subtle dig at you but I guess it didn't quite connect.

I meant I'm not going to address your points because, though I sensed tongue-in-cheek, they are pretty presumptuous and they oversimplify about every subject you're intending to address. As fun as it is to banter and argue over little things I have much more important things to do today.

I'll leave you with with emoticon: 8)

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Re: "The Coming Crunch for Law Schools" by a WUSTL Law Professor

Postby stratocophic » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:58 am

things fall apart wrote:
flcath wrote:
Dude we can say fuck on here.

Are you a TTT advocate? B/c in a strange way, I am too (as you can see).



I know we can but I'd prefer to not be as brazen.

And no I'm not a TTT advocate. I was actually taking a subtle dig at you but I guess it didn't quite connect.

I meant I'm not going to address your points because, though I sensed tongue-in-cheek, they are pretty presumptuous and they oversimplify about every subject you're intending to address. As fun as it is to banter and argue over little things I have much more important things to do today.

I'll leave you with with emoticon: 8)
I know you're shooting for condescension, but you're really just coming off as MAF.

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Re: "The Coming Crunch for Law Schools" by a WUSTL Law Professor

Postby IAFG » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:04 pm

MRavvel wrote: What I don't understand is why someone that didn't do well in college would even want to go to graduate school.

lols egregious anti DF trolling.

also, it's not "graduate school," it's professional school. or at least, it's supposed to be. a JD has more in common with a mechanics associates than a liberal arts PhD.

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Re: "The Coming Crunch for Law Schools" by a WUSTL Law Professor

Postby 09042014 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:12 pm

IAFG wrote:
MRavvel wrote: What I don't understand is why someone that didn't do well in college would even want to go to graduate school.

lols egregious anti DF trolling.

also, it's not "graduate school," it's professional school. or at least, it's supposed to be. a JD has more in common with a mechanics associates than a liberal arts PhD.


Only lawyers could take an undergraduate degree turn it into a masters and call it a doctorate.

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Re: "The Coming Crunch for Law Schools" by a WUSTL Law Professor

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:17 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
IAFG wrote:
MRavvel wrote: What I don't understand is why someone that didn't do well in college would even want to go to graduate school.

lols egregious anti DF trolling.

also, it's not "graduate school," it's professional school. or at least, it's supposed to be. a JD has more in common with a mechanics associates than a liberal arts PhD.


Only lawyers could take an undergraduate degree turn it into a masters and call it a doctorate.


+1

And what is a SJD, by the way, a super-doctorate?

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Re: "The Coming Crunch for Law Schools" by a WUSTL Law Professor

Postby things fall apart » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:19 pm

stratocophic wrote:
things fall apart wrote:
flcath wrote:
Dude we can say fuck on here.

Are you a TTT advocate? B/c in a strange way, I am too (as you can see).



I know we can but I'd prefer to not be as brazen.

And no I'm not a TTT advocate. I was actually taking a subtle dig at you but I guess it didn't quite connect.

I meant I'm not going to address your points because, though I sensed tongue-in-cheek, they are pretty presumptuous and they oversimplify about every subject you're intending to address. As fun as it is to banter and argue over little things I have much more important things to do today.

I'll leave you with with emoticon: 8)
I know you're shooting for condescension, but you're really just coming off as MAF.


1. I was not shooting for condescension, contrarily I was merely stating I strongly disagree with him but I would be a fool to engage that convo/argument that I believe was way off base in the first place
2. Don't know what MAF means, pls translate into non-TLS-reg speak.

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Re: "The Coming Crunch for Law Schools" by a WUSTL Law Professor

Postby bjsesq » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:21 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
IAFG wrote:
MRavvel wrote: What I don't understand is why someone that didn't do well in college would even want to go to graduate school.

lols egregious anti DF trolling.

also, it's not "graduate school," it's professional school. or at least, it's supposed to be. a JD has more in common with a mechanics associates than a liberal arts PhD.


Only lawyers could take an undergraduate degree turn it into a masters and call it a doctorate.


+1

And what is a SJD, by the way, a super-doctorate?


A complete waste of money.

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Re: "The Coming Crunch for Law Schools" by a WUSTL Law Professor

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:29 pm

Personally my plan is to go get an LLM in bankruptcy from St. Johns, do a SJD at Yale, get a Ph.D in economics at some random school, get an MBA from Booth, a med degree at some carribean school, and then die. Take that, $1m in student loans.

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Re: "The Coming Crunch for Law Schools" by a WUSTL Law Professor

Postby 09042014 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:31 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
IAFG wrote:
MRavvel wrote: What I don't understand is why someone that didn't do well in college would even want to go to graduate school.

lols egregious anti DF trolling.

also, it's not "graduate school," it's professional school. or at least, it's supposed to be. a JD has more in common with a mechanics associates than a liberal arts PhD.


Only lawyers could take an undergraduate degree turn it into a masters and call it a doctorate.


+1

And what is a SJD, by the way, a super-doctorate?


A method of monetizing ignorance of legal academic hiring.

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Re: "The Coming Crunch for Law Schools" by a WUSTL Law Professor

Postby 09042014 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:32 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:Personally my plan is to go get an LLM in bankruptcy from St. Johns, do a SJD at Yale, get a Ph.D in economics at some random school, get an MBA from Booth, a med degree at some carribean school, and then die. Take that, $1m in student loans.


I just looked up Yales SJD program costs, it's surprisingly fair.

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Re: "The Coming Crunch for Law Schools" by a WUSTL Law Professor

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:34 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:Personally my plan is to go get an LLM in bankruptcy from St. Johns, do a SJD at Yale, get a Ph.D in economics at some random school, get an MBA from Booth, a med degree at some carribean school, and then die. Take that, $1m in student loans.


I just looked up Yales SJD program costs, it's surprisingly fair.


But that unjustifiably cuts into my goal of taking out $1m in student loans!

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Re: "The Coming Crunch for Law Schools" by a WUSTL Law Professor

Postby 09042014 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:34 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:Personally my plan is to go get an LLM in bankruptcy from St. Johns, do a SJD at Yale, get a Ph.D in economics at some random school, get an MBA from Booth, a med degree at some carribean school, and then die. Take that, $1m in student loans.


I just looked up Yales SJD program costs, it's surprisingly fair.


But that unjustifiably cuts into my goal of taking out $1m in student loans!


Don't worry that Med degree in teh carribean will get you there.

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Re: "The Coming Crunch for Law Schools" by a WUSTL Law Professor

Postby flcath » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:49 pm

things fall apart wrote:
stratocophic wrote:
things fall apart wrote:
flcath wrote:
Dude we can say fuck on here.

Are you a TTT advocate? B/c in a strange way, I am too (as you can see).



I know we can but I'd prefer to not be as brazen.

And no I'm not a TTT advocate. I was actually taking a subtle dig at you but I guess it didn't quite connect.

I meant I'm not going to address your points because, though I sensed tongue-in-cheek, they are pretty presumptuous and they oversimplify about every subject you're intending to address. As fun as it is to banter and argue over little things I have much more important things to do today.

I'll leave you with with emoticon: 8)
I know you're shooting for condescension, but you're really just coming off as MAF.


1. I was not shooting for condescension, contrarily I was merely stating I strongly disagree with him but I would be a fool to engage that convo/argument that I believe was way off base in the first place
2. Don't know what MAF means, pls translate into non-TLS-reg speak.

Don't you have much more important things to be doing?

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Re: "The Coming Crunch for Law Schools" by a WUSTL Law Professor

Postby Samara » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:44 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
IAFG wrote:
MRavvel wrote: What I don't understand is why someone that didn't do well in college would even want to go to graduate school.

lols egregious anti DF trolling.

also, it's not "graduate school," it's professional school. or at least, it's supposed to be. a JD has more in common with a mechanics associates than a liberal arts PhD.


Only lawyers could take an undergraduate degree turn it into a masters and call it a doctorate.

Yeah! Except that law degrees were the original doctorates... Oops...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juris_Doctor




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