A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

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Mary Poppins
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby Mary Poppins » Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:51 am

Recent article providing data, historical perspective and factors contributing to permanent change in legal field.

http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdail ... eport.html

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romothesavior
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby romothesavior » Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:20 pm

The truth in all of this lies somewhere in the middle. I get really frustrated by people on both sides of this "debate" ITT. The legal market is in the absolute shitter, but at the same time, a lot of people do wind up with jobs when they do it right, and a lot of law grads are happy. It isn't black and white.

But those of you who think that going to a T1 or a T20 or a T14 makes you safe, think again. And those of you (like nulli) who think that if you don't get a job from a good school something is wrong with you... you're all dead wrong as well. I know a lot of smart, nice, funny, personable people who just graduated unemployed. Are most T1 grads gonna find a job? Yes. Will it pay the bills? For a lot of people, it's gonna be tough. And for a good chunk of even T1 grads, you'll struggle to find a job, even if you do everything right.

Those of you paying a lot of money to go to a TTT though, you're all crazy.

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NYC Law
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby NYC Law » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:44 pm

romothesavior wrote:The truth in all of this lies somewhere in the middle. I get really frustrated by people on both sides of this "debate" ITT. The legal market is in the absolute shitter, but at the same time, a lot of people do wind up with jobs when they do it right, and a lot of law grads are happy. It isn't black and white.

But those of you who think that going to a T1 or a T20 or a T14 makes you safe, think again. And those of you (like nulli) who think that if you don't get a job from a good school something is wrong with you... you're all dead wrong as well. I know a lot of smart, nice, funny, personable people who just graduated unemployed. Are most T1 grads gonna find a job? Yes. Will it pay the bills? For a lot of people, it's gonna be tough. And for a good chunk of even T1 grads, you'll struggle to find a job, even if you do everything right.

Those of you paying a lot of money to go to a TTT though, you're all crazy.


This.

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Br3v
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby Br3v » Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:19 am

NYC Law wrote:
romothesavior wrote:The truth in all of this lies somewhere in the middle. I get really frustrated by people on both sides of this "debate" ITT. The legal market is in the absolute shitter, but at the same time, a lot of people do wind up with jobs when they do it right, and a lot of law grads are happy. It isn't black and white.

But those of you who think that going to a T1 or a T20 or a T14 makes you safe, think again. And those of you (like nulli) who think that if you don't get a job from a good school something is wrong with you... you're all dead wrong as well. I know a lot of smart, nice, funny, personable people who just graduated unemployed. Are most T1 grads gonna find a job? Yes. Will it pay the bills? For a lot of people, it's gonna be tough. And for a good chunk of even T1 grads, you'll struggle to find a job, even if you do everything right.

Those of you paying a lot of money to go to a TTT though, you're all crazy.


This.


aka
work hard = job
slack = no
law market = rest of economy/real world

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NYC Law
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby NYC Law » Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:06 am

Br3v wrote:
NYC Law wrote:
romothesavior wrote:The truth in all of this lies somewhere in the middle. I get really frustrated by people on both sides of this "debate" ITT. The legal market is in the absolute shitter, but at the same time, a lot of people do wind up with jobs when they do it right, and a lot of law grads are happy. It isn't black and white.

But those of you who think that going to a T1 or a T20 or a T14 makes you safe, think again. And those of you (like nulli) who think that if you don't get a job from a good school something is wrong with you... you're all dead wrong as well. I know a lot of smart, nice, funny, personable people who just graduated unemployed. Are most T1 grads gonna find a job? Yes. Will it pay the bills? For a lot of people, it's gonna be tough. And for a good chunk of even T1 grads, you'll struggle to find a job, even if you do everything right.

Those of you paying a lot of money to go to a TTT though, you're all crazy.


This.


aka
work hard = job
slack = no
law market = rest of economy/real world


No.

Hard Work + Intelligence + Connections + Good School + Personality + Luck = Job

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robotclubmember
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby robotclubmember » Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:23 am

NYC Law wrote:
No.

Hard Work + Intelligence + Connections + Good School + Personality + Luck = Possibility of Job


FTFY 8)

areyouinsane
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby areyouinsane » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:52 am

Ouch! In the Midwest doc review rates dropping to $22 an hour flat for admitted attorneys:

http://law.slu.edu/careers/opportunitie ... sp?ID=4999

ROTFL that this is posted on a law school's "career services" website. Though still not as hilarious as Brooklyn Law inviting the temp agencies to "recruit" directly on campus!

At least St. Louis Law School only charges 35 K a year to graduate and become a $22 an hour temp.

Aqualibrium
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby Aqualibrium » Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:09 am

NYC Law wrote:As I've said before, it is NOT a difficult argument to make that the legal market is shit. But if you're going to parade around these forums with the specific intent to state how shitty things are, at least be good at it. Shit articles with anecdotes of grads who predictably land as they do (or in the case of areyouinsane, the even worse tactic of posting Craigslist jobs) are not convincing nor do they add anything new or of value to the narrative. Do some god damn research and present statistics instead of looking for the most obvious Yellow Journalism.

No wonder you guys can't get decent legal jobs, you have terrible logic and argumentative skills.



You're right, it's far easier/more significant to talk to jobless magna, law review editors at your very own school...

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robotclubmember
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby robotclubmember » Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:12 am

Aqualibrium wrote:
NYC Law wrote:As I've said before, it is NOT a difficult argument to make that the legal market is shit. But if you're going to parade around these forums with the specific intent to state how shitty things are, at least be good at it. Shit articles with anecdotes of grads who predictably land as they do (or in the case of areyouinsane, the even worse tactic of posting Craigslist jobs) are not convincing nor do they add anything new or of value to the narrative. Do some god damn research and present statistics instead of looking for the most obvious Yellow Journalism.

No wonder you guys can't get decent legal jobs, you have terrible logic and argumentative skills.



You're right, it's far easier/more significant to talk to jobless magna, law review editors at your very own school...


some people just really like the flavor of kool-aid

Aqualibrium
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby Aqualibrium » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:00 pm

robotclubmember wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:
NYC Law wrote:As I've said before, it is NOT a difficult argument to make that the legal market is shit. But if you're going to parade around these forums with the specific intent to state how shitty things are, at least be good at it. Shit articles with anecdotes of grads who predictably land as they do (or in the case of areyouinsane, the even worse tactic of posting Craigslist jobs) are not convincing nor do they add anything new or of value to the narrative. Do some god damn research and present statistics instead of looking for the most obvious Yellow Journalism.

No wonder you guys can't get decent legal jobs, you have terrible logic and argumentative skills.



You're right, it's far easier/more significant to talk to jobless magna, law review editors at your very own school...


some people just really like the flavor of kool-aid


Agreed. I'm not one of them though. I've been very successful in law school, and already have a permanent offer in hand headed into 3L year. I just call it like I see it, and as I said before, it is far easier and more significant to go talk to jobless kids in law school (or even kids with jobs who are miserable and feeling like they made a 160k mistake) than it is to read an article every other day about some kid from Thomas Jefferson.
Last edited by Aqualibrium on Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

scammedhard
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby scammedhard » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:09 pm

And yet another WSJ artcile: "Salaries Sliding for Recent Law School Grads"

This phrase sums it up nicely:

...only about 64% of law school graduates found full-time employment in a job requiring bar passage.


http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2011/07/06/sal ... ool-grads/

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NYC Law
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby NYC Law » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:12 pm

scammedhard wrote:And yet another WSJ artcile: "Salaries Sliding for Recent Law School Grads"

This phrase sums it up nicely:

...only about 64% of law school graduates found full-time employment in a job requiring bar passage.


http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2011/07/06/sal ... ool-grads/


Eh good stuff, maybe fewer will flock to law now.

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2011Cycle
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby 2011Cycle » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:21 pm

What's National Association of Law Placement? Does the writer mean National Association of Legal Professionals?

areyouinsane
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby areyouinsane » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:34 pm

Agreed. I'm not one of them though. I've been very successful in law school, and already have a permanent offer in hand headed into 3L year.



ROTFL! Just ask the class of 2008 & '09 about those "permanent" offers. The economy is headed right down the toilet and I wouldn't be surprised to see another bloodbath right around the corner.

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NYC Law
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby NYC Law » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:36 pm

2011Cycle wrote:What's National Association of Law Placement? Does the writer mean National Association of Legal Professionals?


:lol: Nice catch

ROTFL! Just ask the class of 2008 & '09 about those "permanent" offers. The economy is headed right down the toilet and I wouldn't be surprised to see another bloodbath right around the corner.


Learn from MTal - people will start to not take you seriously if you come off as a paranoid fuckwad

Aqualibrium
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby Aqualibrium » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:38 pm

2011Cycle wrote:What's National Association of Law Placement? Does the writer mean National Association of Legal Professionals?


NALP was actually originally (and I guess technically still is) the national association for law placement...

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monarchylover
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby monarchylover » Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:32 pm

I don't understand people on this board.... I mean nobody said it would be easy? Anyone who settles in life in any career deserves what they get...

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ndirish2010
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby ndirish2010 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:40 pm

monarchylover wrote:I don't understand people on this board.... I mean nobody said it would be easy? Anyone who settles in life in any career deserves what they get...


LOLOLOL. I think this might deserve a tempban.

scammedhard
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby scammedhard » Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:45 pm

monarchylover wrote:I don't understand people on this board.... I mean nobody said it would be easy? Anyone who settles in life in any career deserves what they get...

Very true.

I'd add that anyone that misallocates their time and capital also "deserves what they get..."

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monarchylover
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby monarchylover » Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:46 pm

scammedhard wrote:
monarchylover wrote:I don't understand people on this board.... I mean nobody said it would be easy? Anyone who settles in life in any career deserves what they get...

Very true.

I'd add that anyone that misallocates their time and capital also "deserves what they get..."



Well if that's true why do you want to be a lawyer?

scammedhard
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby scammedhard » Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:54 pm

monarchylover wrote:Well if that's true why do you want to be a lawyer?

Because, despite the time commitment, going to law school UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS is still a valuable investment, and I happen to be a very fortunate person that meets those certain conditions (T14+lots of money). But for the vast majority of JD-seekers going to law schools is a poor investment.

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monarchylover
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby monarchylover » Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:02 am

scammedhard wrote:
monarchylover wrote:Well if that's true why do you want to be a lawyer?

Because, despite the time commitment, going to law school UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS is still a valuable investment, and I happen to be a very fortunate person that meets those certain conditions (T14+lots of money). But for the vast majority of JD-seekers, going to law schools is a poor investment.


So if I can't get into T14 with lots of money. I should say throw away my life goal of being an attorney and go be an airline pilot like my father and grandfather which pays very well and hate my life living in an airport/tin can tube because it would be a better investment? I think you need to look at life investments not only in monetary terms...

scammedhard
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby scammedhard » Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:16 am

monarchylover wrote:So if I can't get into T14 with lots of money. I should say throw away my life goal of being an attorney and go be an airline pilot like my father and grandfather which pays very well and hate my life living in an airport/tin can tube because it would be a better investment? I think you need to look at life investments not only in monetary terms...

You should learn how to read better, particularly considering you want want to be an attorney.

First, I did not say that "T14+lots of money" is the ONLY way to go. I said that "T14+lots of money" satisfies the criteria.

Second, I did not mention any emotional considerations. My argument is limited to financial investments.

scammedhard
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby scammedhard » Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:20 am

monarchylover wrote:So if I can't get into T14 with lots of money. I should say throw away my life goal of being an attorney and go be an airline pilot like my father and grandfather which pays very well and hate my life living in an airport/tin can tube because it would be a better investment? I think you need to look at life investments not only in monetary terms...

I also think that you are romanticizing the legal profession, making it sound that lawyers are happy. Maybe in TV they are, but in the real world they are not. Most of them hate being lawyers and great deal of them leave the legal profession.

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NYC Law
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby NYC Law » Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:22 am

I don't think anyone is arguing that law school is a good financial investment (unless going to upper T14 for cheap, anything for free). But many people here put a high value on the subjective characteristic of pursuing a career route they actually desire. Some people truly do want to be lawyers. It's not a good idea to 'follow your emotions' and be a lawyer at all costs if that involves going to a true TTTT at sticker, shelling out $150k+, but if it's a reputable school and there are some feasible routes to paying off the debt, go for it.




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