A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

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scammedhard
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A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby scammedhard » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:40 pm

And the negative news keep on coming.

From the WSJ: "Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 66666.html

EDIT: Access directly through the WSJ website requires a subscription; access through Google News does not. It's the first hit:

http://news.google.com/news/search?aq=f ... earch+News

There is a video as well. It is even more depressing.
Last edited by scammedhard on Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:11 am, edited 2 times in total.

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NR3C1
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby NR3C1 » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:44 pm

A legal recession/depression with no end in sight...

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Nulli Secundus
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby Nulli Secundus » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:56 am

As with "NoJob" before you, you are peddling your wares in the wrong forum. The ones that post here without being ripped apart to shreds or trolled to extinction are people with at least T1 grade numbers. And if you graduate from a T1 and still can find only a Temp Job, well, chances are law school did not negatively affect your prospects in the first place. You just fail at life. Hth.

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Br3v
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby Br3v » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:59 am

What tier is American U?

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Br3v
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby Br3v » Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:00 am

Br3v wrote:What tier is American U?


....it was in article posted which I actually read for unknown reasons

areyouinsane
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby areyouinsane » Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:29 am

And if you graduate from a T1 and still can find only a Temp Job, well, chances are law school did not negatively affect your prospects in the first place. You just fail at life. Hth.


I've done legal temp work on and off for 6 years, and have worked with a LOT of T1 grads (and, for that matter, top 14 grads). The market out there is utterly gruesome, and to think that you're personally exempt from the laws of supply and demand due to "T 1" status is pretty silly. If you miss the boat at OCI, temping is one of the very few employment options you'll have available. Did you read the article? A woman quoted in there is 52 years old and was laid off as GC at a company, and is now temping? Was she a "failure" too? I've also temped with NYU and Columbia grads who had Biglaw offers rescinded. Guess they were all failures too.

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Nulli Secundus
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby Nulli Secundus » Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:57 am

areyouinsane wrote:
And if you graduate from a T1 and still can find only a Temp Job, well, chances are law school did not negatively affect your prospects in the first place. You just fail at life. Hth.


I've done legal temp work on and off for 6 years, and have worked with a LOT of T1 grads (and, for that matter, top 14 grads). The market out there is utterly gruesome, and to think that you're personally exempt from the laws of supply and demand due to "T 1" status is pretty silly. If you miss the boat at OCI, temping is one of the very few employment options you'll have available. Did you read the article? A woman quoted in there is 52 years old and was laid off as GC at a company, and is now temping? Was she a "failure" too? I've also temped with NYU and Columbia grads who had Biglaw offers rescinded. Guess they were all failures too.


Notice how I do not claim that T1 makes you immune to supply & demand. Quite the contrary, I say that T1 graduation gives you the necessary tools for success, your failure to utilize those (since to do so you need at least basic interviewing skills, a decent personality etc.) is, shockingly, your failure. Yes the market is grim for all TTT grads and for all T1 grads that fail to give the right message. Boo effing hoo.

Curry

Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby Curry » Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:14 am

Br3v wrote:
Br3v wrote:What tier is American U?


....it was in article posted which I actually read for unknown reasons

What the fuck?

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Nulli Secundus
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby Nulli Secundus » Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:19 am

Curry wrote:
Br3v wrote:
Br3v wrote:What tier is American U?


....it was in article posted which I actually read for unknown reasons

What the fuck?


Let it go on record that Curry, on year 2011, June 15th, "WTF"d someone else in a thread I am also posting in.

Curry

Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby Curry » Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:24 am

Nulli Secundus wrote:
Curry wrote:
Br3v wrote:
Br3v wrote:What tier is American U?


....it was in article posted which I actually read for unknown reasons

What the fuck?


Let it go on record that Curry, on year 2011, June 15th, "WTF"d someone else in a thread I am also posting in.

Mainly because you are on point here.

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Helmholtz
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby Helmholtz » Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:29 am

I credit this article for informing me that University of New Hampshire Law is a real thing.

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Helmholtz
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby Helmholtz » Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:34 am

Chevita Phifer: I didn't go to Southern University Law Center to be called a "coder"

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Helmholtz
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby Helmholtz » Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:38 am

American University's Washington College of Law: Baptizing graduates in Prestige and Power since forever

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robotclubmember
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby robotclubmember » Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:57 am

areyouinsane wrote:
And if you graduate from a T1 and still can find only a Temp Job, well, chances are law school did not negatively affect your prospects in the first place. You just fail at life. Hth.


I've done legal temp work on and off for 6 years, and have worked with a LOT of T1 grads (and, for that matter, top 14 grads). The market out there is utterly gruesome, and to think that you're personally exempt from the laws of supply and demand due to "T 1" status is pretty silly. If you miss the boat at OCI, temping is one of the very few employment options you'll have available. Did you read the article? A woman quoted in there is 52 years old and was laid off as GC at a company, and is now temping? Was she a "failure" too? I've also temped with NYU and Columbia grads who had Biglaw offers rescinded. Guess they were all failures too.


+1

An economic downturn is on the horizon. Systemic changes are occuring in the legal environment with an emphasis on contract hiring and outsourcing routine work, and even software performing basic functions like discovery now instead of an actual warm body. These systemic changes will increasingly reduce the demand for lawyers. BLS estimates now that 30,000 entry-level openings each year for 45,000 new graduates. Each year an excess supply of unneeded JD's will be spilled into this market, and each year that excess supply will accumulate to be more than just one year's worth of excess supply, creating a bottleneck that will affect (and already has affected) graduates of Tier 1 and even T14 universities. I don't think it gives anyone an excuse to dial up the wahmbulance and whine about it. Students should have done their due diligence re: the job market before overcrowding the field and attaining a degree with dubious employment prospects. Don't you do a lot of research before buying a car? It's not a pretzel. And yet most 20-something's would but a fifth the amount of research into purchasing a legal education that will cost them five times as much. However, with materially misleading employment reporting sanctioned by an ineffective and ineffectual ABA, it's difficult to blame the students entirely. Regardless, it's naive to assume all these people are failures because they were victims of circumstance. Not everything is in a person's control. The excess supply of lawyer's is not individually in each underemployed or unemployed lawyer's control. And to second what was said above, no, Tier 1 and T14 aren't exempt from supply and demand. The job market isn't pretty for anyone right now, especially those in law, and to an extent it becomes a numbers game, not a black and white binary of failures and not-failures.

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loblaw
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby loblaw » Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:14 am

Helmholtz wrote:It's not a pretzel. And yet most 20-something's would but a fifth the amount of research into purchasing a legal education that will cost them five times as much.


Wait...my legal education will cost WAY MORE than five pretzels. Man, wish I'd done my research.

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robotclubmember
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby robotclubmember » Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:27 am

loblaw wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:It's not a pretzel. And yet most 20-something's would but a fifth the amount of research into purchasing a legal education that will cost them five times as much.


Wait...my legal education will cost WAY MORE than five pretzels. Man, wish I'd done my research.


LOL

scammedhard
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby scammedhard » Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:30 am

Nulli Secundus wrote:As with "NoJob" before you, you are peddling your wares in the wrong forum. The ones that post here without being ripped apart to shreds or trolled to extinction are people with at least T1 grade numbers. And if you graduate from a T1 and still can find only a Temp Job, well, chances are law school did not negatively affect your prospects in the first place. You just fail at life. Hth.

I appreciate your advice and will take it into consideration. However, I should state that I don't post here in TLS with the intent of winning (or losing) a popularity contest. I simply want to share stories, data, and information about the legal profession so that other TLSers can make informed decisions. Anyone is free to believe in whatever they want to believe.

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NYC Law
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby NYC Law » Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:32 am

ITA: A TTTT (Southern) and a random older American Law grad don't find permanent employment. Groundbreaking research, keep it up scammedhard.

scammedhard
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby scammedhard » Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:34 am

NYC Law wrote:ITA: A TTTT (Southern) and a random older American Law grad don't find permanent employment. Groundbreaking research, keep it up scammedhard.

If that's the way you want to interpret the article, fine with me.

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NYC Law
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby NYC Law » Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:41 am

As I've said before, it is NOT a difficult argument to make that the legal market is shit. But if you're going to parade around these forums with the specific intent to state how shitty things are, at least be good at it. Shit articles with anecdotes of grads who predictably land as they do (or in the case of areyouinsane, the even worse tactic of posting Craigslist jobs) are not convincing nor do they add anything new or of value to the narrative. Do some god damn research and present statistics instead of looking for the most obvious Yellow Journalism.

No wonder you guys can't get decent legal jobs, you have terrible logic and argumentative skills.

scammedhard
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby scammedhard » Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:47 am

NYC Law wrote:As I've said before, it is NOT a difficult argument to make that the legal market is shit. But if you're going to parade around these forums with the specific intent to state how shitty things are, at least be good at it. Shit articles with anecdotes of grads who predictably land as they do (or in the case of areyouinsane, the even worse tactic of posting Craigslist jobs) are not convincing nor do they add anything new or of value to the narrative. Do some god damn research and present statistics instead of looking for the most obvious Yellow Journalism.

No wonder you guys can't get decent legal jobs, you have terrible logic and argumentative skills.

I am not interpreting these articles. I am simply posting links to them. And with regards to logical skills, let's hear your amazing argumentative skills that lead you to conclude that I "can't get decent legal jobs."
Last edited by scammedhard on Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

CanadianWolf
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:47 am

Blind optimism is good when starting a career at an early stage of one's life, but when reality hits it can be unduly destructive due to the unreasonably high cost of a law degree combined with the non-dischargeability of student loans.

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robotclubmember
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby robotclubmember » Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:49 am

NYC Law wrote:As I've said before, it is NOT a difficult argument to make that the legal market is shit. But if you're going to parade around these forums with the specific intent to state how shitty things are, at least be good at it. Shit articles with anecdotes of grads who predictably land as they do (or in the case of areyouinsane, the even worse tactic of posting Craigslist jobs) are not convincing nor do they add anything new or of value to the narrative. Do some god damn research and present statistics instead of looking for the most obvious Yellow Journalism.

No wonder you guys can't get decent legal jobs, you have terrible logic and argumentative skills.


Who is "you guys"? scammedhard? He's an 0L, he hasn't sought a legal job yet. Also, judging by his posts and stats, he's not another "NoJobs." He is sharing an article. I hadn't seen it, it was an interesting read to me anyway. Thanks for sharing.

The article isn't yellow journalism, but it's not clear either. It does present statistics that are relevant to all of us. For example: "About 10% of all private practice jobs accepted by last year's law school graduates were reported as temporary, a steady increase from 5.4% in 2007, according to the National Association for Law Placement." Also: "Temporary legal staffing in the U.S. is projected to increase by 25% cumulatively over the next two years." And: "The Posse List said it saw a 66% increase in document review job postings this year."

These are real and relevant data points that suggest a trend of systemic and permanent changes in the legal market. The journalism gets cheesy when they splice in the personal stories, but if it was just a compendium of data, no one would read the article, so understand what the journalist's job is: to stand on the shoulders of those directly affected by these trends and reach out to a broader constituency with their story. To not use personal stories to relay the statistic would shorten the journalist's grasp. Yes, I don't give a shit about random American University grad X, other than that, his story is the vessel for relaying the statistics. This is just how stories are written.

The trends are concerning. People can be proactive, or reactive to the trends. Proactive is the most desirous, but to be proactive, you should FORESEE the trends, not just gripe about them after the fact. This article is predicting trends. The information is useful. It may not affect you right now, but over time, it will.

CanadianWolf
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:51 am

Pravda never printed negative stories about the Soviet Union or its government.

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NYC Law
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Re: A WSJ Article: Lawyers Settle... for Temp Jobs

Postby NYC Law » Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:55 am

robotclubmember wrote:
NYC Law wrote:As I've said before, it is NOT a difficult argument to make that the legal market is shit. But if you're going to parade around these forums with the specific intent to state how shitty things are, at least be good at it. Shit articles with anecdotes of grads who predictably land as they do (or in the case of areyouinsane, the even worse tactic of posting Craigslist jobs) are not convincing nor do they add anything new or of value to the narrative. Do some god damn research and present statistics instead of looking for the most obvious Yellow Journalism.

No wonder you guys can't get decent legal jobs, you have terrible logic and argumentative skills.


Who is "you guys"? scammedhard? He's an 0L, he hasn't sought a legal job yet. Also, judging by his posts and stats, he's not another "NoJobs." He is sharing an article. I hadn't seen it, it was an interesting read to me anyway. Thanks for sharing.

The article isn't yellow journalism, but it's not clear either. It does present statistics that are relevant to all of us. For example: "About 10% of all private practice jobs accepted by last year's law school graduates were reported as temporary, a steady increase from 5.4% in 2007, according to the National Association for Law Placement." Also: "Temporary legal staffing in the U.S. is projected to increase by 25% cumulatively over the next two years." And: "The Posse List said it saw a 66% increase in document review job postings this year."

These are real and relevant data points that suggest a trend of systemic and permanent changes in the legal market. The journalism gets cheesy when they splice in the personal stories, but if it was just a compendium of data, no one would read the article, so understand what the journalist's job is: to stand on the shoulders of those directly affected by these trends and reach out to a broader constituency with their story. To not use personal stories to relay the statistic would shorten the journalist's grasp. Yes, I don't give a shit about random American University grad X, other than that, his story is the vessel for relaying the statistics. This is just how stories are written.

The trends are concerning. People can be proactive, or reactive to the trends. Proactive is the most desirous, but to be proactive, you should FORESEE the trends, not just gripe about them after the fact. This article is predicting trends. The information is useful. It may not affect you right now, but over time, it will.


What, from this info, allows you to draw the conclusion that the changes are permanent? We've just gone through the worst recession since the great depression, so yeah, things are awful. But I don't see how you're able to draw that conclusion while still in the middle of the fog of it all.




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