Long Arrest Record, C&F What will they think???

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jra5070
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Long Arrest Record, C&F What will they think???

Postby jra5070 » Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:44 am

Ok, here is the deal. It looks alot worse then it actually is, at least in my mind. I have many positives such as 11 years miltiary, 3 deployments, and other stuff i could touch on. But the fact that I will have to explain ALL of this if I choose to pursue law school scares the hell out of me. All thoughts and opinions are welcome. What will schools think, what will the C&F think, is it worth it .....

When I was 17 I was arrested for underage drinking. Charge was dropped without prejudice.

When I was 17 got arrested at a High School dance for arguing with principle (disorderly conduct charge). Charge was dropped without prejudice.

When I was in my early 20’s I was arrested for Disorderly Conduct and Resisting Arrest. These charges were dropped, I paid a fine for a noise violation.

When I was 24 I was arrested for Disorderly Conduct and Resisting Arrest. Those charges were dismissed. I paid a fine for a noise violation.

When I was 25 a crazy ex put a restraining order on me, which still exists to this day and will never expire (on the grounds of criminal trespass, no actual violence. And frequently called about me violating it (even if I didn’t)

-First go round of arrests was for harassment and violating the order. Charges were dropped without prejudice.

-Second go round of arrests was for violating the order and harassment. Those charges were dismissed and I pleaded guilty to Disorderly Conduct. In my state is that is only a disorderly persons offense. I served 4 months on probation. This event has since been expunged (I know the expungement for the most part is irrelevant). The plea deal was mainly to avoid any chance of a lautenberg firearms restriction cause I am a military guy.

When I was 29 I was arrested for theft of services and public intox when a taxi driver took me for a joy ride and we had a dispute over the bill. Those charges were dropped, I did 10 hours volunteer work (not court ordered).

And a fair amount of speeding tickets.

I am now 30.

Let me have it.

bhan87
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Re: Long Arrest Record, C&F What will they think???

Postby bhan87 » Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:56 am

The biggest concern is you have virtually no distance between the last offense and now. There's no way to write this off as youthful ignorance. I don't think this will get past law school adcomms, much less passing C&F

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Lawquacious
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Re: Long Arrest Record, C&F What will they think???

Postby Lawquacious » Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:56 am

Normally I think people overblow the seriousness of the various C and F issues they share about. In your case I think you have an uphill battle. But, on the positive side it doesn't sound like you have felony convictions, so that is probably good. Even if you did have felonies, in most states (by state bar) I believe they are surmountable. The problem in your case is that you have a continuing history of these problems. Putting at least a few more years between you and these types of troubles will probably help, especially if you can show that you are fully taking responsibility for yourself and addressing the root causes that leads you to act out in these ways. It still would probably be difficult, but I imagine if you were determined it is possible that you could eventually (at some point down the road) be admitted to the bar of some or most states, at least on a conditional basis. But I would make sure you address your issues, because if this stuff happens once you are licensed then I think you could destroy your career very quickly. This is all just my opinion, and I would research the heck of the issue you are facing to get a better idea. I may be wrong about some or all of what I have said. But good luck to you. Oh yeah, and I definitely wouldn't lie about your history, because I have heard dishonesty called the 'kiss of death' by a C and F examiner. BUT, I would use tons of discretion and present yourself in the most favorable light possible.

jra5070
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Re: Long Arrest Record, C&F What will they think???

Postby jra5070 » Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:02 am

bhan87 wrote:The biggest concern is you have virtually no distance between the last offense and now. There's no way to write this off as youthful ignorance. I don't think this will get past law school adcomms, much less passing C&F


I know but whats frustrating is having to explain non convictions. It's not youthful ignorance, because they were dismissed (most) expecially the last offense. Dismissed in my mind means, didn't do it, but they still want some story about how it changed me and I'm a better person because of it. Had no idea the cab driver would drive me in circles around the city to run up an 80 dollar far while I took a little nap in the back. That was just an unlucky day.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Long Arrest Record, C&F What will they think???

Postby Lawquacious » Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:21 am

jra5070 wrote:
bhan87 wrote:The biggest concern is you have virtually no distance between the last offense and now. There's no way to write this off as youthful ignorance. I don't think this will get past law school adcomms, much less passing C&F


I know but whats frustrating is having to explain non convictions. It's not youthful ignorance, because they were dismissed (most) expecially the last offense. Dismissed in my mind means, didn't do it, but they still want some story about how it changed me and I'm a better person because of it. Had no idea the cab driver would drive me in circles around the city to run up an 80 dollar far while I took a little nap in the back. That was just an unlucky day.



Well, not all apps do make you admit to 'charges' or 'arrests' as far as I know. So you might want to look through apps and the LSAC website to get an idea of which schools might be easier for you to apply to. But with your history I think you will probably need to make some disclosure at almost all or all schools based on the apps.

Some of your comments do sound to be like you are avoiding taking responsibility, which, if that is the case, may not come off well in C and F process IMO.
Last edited by Lawquacious on Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:17 am, edited 3 times in total.

cartercl
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Re: Long Arrest Record, C&F What will they think???

Postby cartercl » Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:23 am

jra5070 wrote:
bhan87 wrote:The biggest concern is you have virtually no distance between the last offense and now. There's no way to write this off as youthful ignorance. I don't think this will get past law school adcomms, much less passing C&F


I know but whats frustrating is having to explain non convictions. It's not youthful ignorance, because they were dismissed (most) expecially the last offense. Dismissed in my mind means, didn't do it, but they still want some story about how it changed me and I'm a better person because of it. Had no idea the cab driver would drive me in circles around the city to run up an 80 dollar far while I took a little nap in the back. That was just an unlucky day.


First thing's first: dismissed definitely doesn't mean didn't do it. What you're doing in this post is what you definitely do not want to do when you apply to law school. Don't make excuses. Admit what you did, and leave it at that. Then prove why you are less likely to engage in the same behavior in the future. Your problem, however, is that you typically prove this by evidencing your lack of legal trouble over a specified period of time. You're obviously going to have a problem doing this seeing as how your last offense was when you were 29 years old. Put some time between you and your offenses and kill the LSAT. If you try to make this into an issue of whether you should have been charged or not, you will lose.

HBK
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Re: Long Arrest Record, C&F What will they think???

Postby HBK » Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:34 am

cartercl wrote:
jra5070 wrote:
bhan87 wrote:The biggest concern is you have virtually no distance between the last offense and now. There's no way to write this off as youthful ignorance. I don't think this will get past law school adcomms, much less passing C&F


I know but whats frustrating is having to explain non convictions. It's not youthful ignorance, because they were dismissed (most) expecially the last offense. Dismissed in my mind means, didn't do it, but they still want some story about how it changed me and I'm a better person because of it. Had no idea the cab driver would drive me in circles around the city to run up an 80 dollar far while I took a little nap in the back. That was just an unlucky day.


First thing's first: dismissed definitely doesn't mean didn't do it. What you're doing in this post is what you definitely do not want to do when you apply to law school. Don't make excuses. Admit what you did, and leave it at that. Then prove why you are less likely to engage in the same behavior in the future. Your problem, however, is that you typically prove this by evidencing your lack of legal trouble over a specified period of time. You're obviously going to have a problem doing this seeing as how your last offense was when you were 29 years old. Put some time between you and your offenses and kill the LSAT. If you try to make this into an issue of whether you should have been charged or not, you will lose.


titcr. You are innocent until proven guilty in the court of law. However, you are dealing with lawyers, who understand the plea deals you made, the fact that someone with crimes worse than yours can get off because the witness is unavailable, the judge was a bleeding heart, etc. Most law school applicants have NEVER been arrested. One dismissed case is acceptable, your history of stalking, drunkeness, and theft of services presents a much larger hurdle. Additionally, the theft of services was fairly recent, and the bar does not look fondly upon crimes of moral turpitdude. I am admittedly too disinterested and too lazy to look up whether theft of services is a crime of moral turpitude, but I'd wager $10 in a bar bet that it is.

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SOCRATiC
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Re: Long Arrest Record, C&F What will they think???

Postby SOCRATiC » Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:53 am

Don't go to law school. It'll probably be a poor investment for you anyway.

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Jack Smirks
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Re: Long Arrest Record, C&F What will they think???

Postby Jack Smirks » Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:05 am

The only answer is to get in touch with your local state bar or an attorney who specializes in C and F issues. Some states have a "pre-screening" for 1Ls. I would suggest doing those things and not taking advice from those on TLS who for the most part have not been through the C and F process and don't really know what the fuck they're talking about.

jra5070
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Re: Long Arrest Record, C&F What will they think???

Postby jra5070 » Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:13 am

naterj wrote:The only answer is to get in touch with your local state bar or an attorney who specializes in C and F issues. Some states have a "pre-screening" for 1Ls. I would suggest doing those things and not taking advice from those on TLS who for the most part have not been through the C and F process and don't really know what the fuck they're talking about.


I like you.

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glitter178
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Re: Long Arrest Record, C&F What will they think???

Postby glitter178 » Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:16 am

Impressive history.


Law school would be a very, very poor investment for you. Try something else, like politician maybe. The standards there seem to have become nearly nonexistent.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Long Arrest Record, C&F What will they think???

Postby Lawquacious » Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:25 am

naterj wrote:The only answer is to get in touch with your local state bar or an attorney who specializes in C and F issues.


In terms of getting advice or feedback you can hang your hat on with certainty, I agree with this. Hopefully some of the feedback in this thread has at least given you food for thought that might prove useful though, if nothing else in pointing to other sources of information and a general idea of the types of things C and F examiners often seem to look for (such as putting time between you and the offense etc).
Last edited by Lawquacious on Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

jra5070
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Re: Long Arrest Record, C&F What will they think???

Postby jra5070 » Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:29 am

glitter178 wrote:Impressive history.


Law school would be a very, very poor investment for you. Try something else, like politician maybe. The standards there seem to have become nearly nonexistent.


Don't be a douche. When you add it all together on normal job applications when asked "have you been convicted of a crime" the answer is still no. So stop making it seem like its a string of freakin burglaries.

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blurbz
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Re: Long Arrest Record, C&F What will they think???

Postby blurbz » Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:38 am

You slept in the back of a cab and didn't think the driver would bill you for it? What did you expect him to do? Cover you in a blanket and sing lullabies?

In any event, talk to a lawyer about your chances at bar admission. I see a lot of red flags, but the dismissals are certainly infinitely better than other possible dispositions.

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glitter178
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Re: Long Arrest Record, C&F What will they think???

Postby glitter178 » Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:43 am

jra5070 wrote:
glitter178 wrote:Impressive history.


Law school would be a very, very poor investment for you. Try something else, like politician maybe. The standards there seem to have become nearly nonexistent.


Don't be a douche. When you add it all together on normal job applications when asked "have you been convicted of a crime" the answer is still no. So stop making it seem like its a string of freakin burglaries.


Hold the fucking phone. You have a string of legal issues spanning 12 years. I'm not being a douche; I'm suggesting that you find a different profession. Are you kidding? There are threads on this forum about students graduating from top 10 schools with perfect records who are graduating unemployed and desperate. What do you expect to accomplish with your record? Are you mad that the opinion is that you shouldnt attend law school ?

jra5070
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Re: Long Arrest Record, C&F What will they think???

Postby jra5070 » Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:59 am

blurbz wrote:You slept in the back of a cab and didn't think the driver would bill you for it? What did you expect him to do? Cover you in a blanket and sing lullabies?

In any event, talk to a lawyer about your chances at bar admission. I see a lot of red flags, but the dismissals are certainly infinitely better than other possible dispositions.


Take me to the friggen hotel as I asked, yes (a 15 dollar ride).
Drive me around the city in circles until I woke up with the fair at 82...give me a break.

I actually filed a complaint in the aftermath, which was substantiated.

jra5070
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Re: Long Arrest Record, C&F What will they think???

Postby jra5070 » Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:04 am

glitter178 wrote:
jra5070 wrote:
glitter178 wrote:Impressive history.


Law school would be a very, very poor investment for you. Try something else, like politician maybe. The standards there seem to have become nearly nonexistent.


Don't be a douche. When you add it all together on normal job applications when asked "have you been convicted of a crime" the answer is still no. So stop making it seem like its a string of freakin burglaries.


Hold the fucking phone. You have a string of legal issues spanning 12 years. I'm not being a douche; I'm suggesting that you find a different profession. Are you kidding? There are threads on this forum about students graduating from top 10 schools with perfect records who are graduating unemployed and desperate. What do you expect to accomplish with your record? Are you mad that the opinion is that you shouldnt attend law school ?


No I am mad that you say things like, "your record". You mean a 12 year history of dismissals? It's only an issue in C&F land. Every single thing listed has been expunged, hence employers are not legally allowed to ask.

Petty drinking crap between 17 and early twenties is hardly "Legal Issues" when taken into the context of no criminal record.

The only medium hitter in my list is the 4 months of probation.

If I am eligible to hold a Top Secret Clearance in the Military, the underlying stories cannot be that bad.

Its only in TLS where a dismissed drinking ticket turns into a "record".

My questions revolved around school and C&F, seeing that is where the catch 22 comes into play about convictions/dismissed/expunged = guilty.

Can I help it that an ex girlfriend found it amusing to call the cops every freaking day claiming I called her, No.

Can I control the Cab situation, maybe, but when added up I did more right than wrong, I just got took by a shitty cabby,

The underage drinking ticket that is first listed wasn't even legal. I actually got money from damages from the city along with thousands of others in a huge class action suit.

The two disorderly and resisting charges occured in a southern NJ shore town by Special Police Offices (college students). Anyone in NJ understands the difference of getting a disorderly conduct charge in say Wildwood vs Newark or some town thats not seasonal, its almost two different standards.

Do I hold responsibilty at all? At a bare minimum at least yes, because I was present and took part somehow, but none of what is listed measures up to what it sounds like at face value, thats why it was all dismissed.

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jump_man
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Re: Long Arrest Record, C&F What will they think???

Postby jump_man » Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:20 am

Have you taken the LSAT yet? All of this might be a moot point if you have an exceptionally low score.

For some schools, Incredibly high LSAT score > Criminal Record

Edit: But passing the bar exam is a whole different ballgame . . . on the plus side, I'm pretty sure the state of Wisconsin will let you practice law simply by graduating from a law school in that state. So, if you have your heart set on practicing law, that could be an option too . . .

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Jack Smirks
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Re: Long Arrest Record, C&F What will they think???

Postby Jack Smirks » Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:37 am

Here's some basic info on bar requirements state by state if you haven't seen it. I could only find the 2010 version but it should be pretty accurate.
--LinkRemoved--

protein
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Re: Long Arrest Record, C&F What will they think???

Postby protein » Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:03 am

jra5070 wrote:
glitter178 wrote:
jra5070 wrote:
glitter178 wrote:Impressive history.


Law school would be a very, very poor investment for you. Try something else, like politician maybe. The standards there seem to have become nearly nonexistent.


Don't be a douche. When you add it all together on normal job applications when asked "have you been convicted of a crime" the answer is still no. So stop making it seem like its a string of freakin burglaries.


Hold the fucking phone. You have a string of legal issues spanning 12 years. I'm not being a douche; I'm suggesting that you find a different profession. Are you kidding? There are threads on this forum about students graduating from top 10 schools with perfect records who are graduating unemployed and desperate. What do you expect to accomplish with your record? Are you mad that the opinion is that you shouldnt attend law school ?


No I am mad that you say things like, "your record". You mean a 12 year history of dismissals? It's only an issue in C&F land. Every single thing listed has been expunged, hence employers are not legally allowed to ask.

Petty drinking crap between 17 and early twenties is hardly "Legal Issues" when taken into the context of no criminal record.

The only medium hitter in my list is the 4 months of probation.

If I am eligible to hold a Top Secret Clearance in the Military, the underlying stories cannot be that bad.

Its only in TLS where a dismissed drinking ticket turns into a "record".

My questions revolved around school and C&F, seeing that is where the catch 22 comes into play about convictions/dismissed/expunged = guilty.

Can I help it that an ex girlfriend found it amusing to call the cops every freaking day claiming I called her, No.

Can I control the Cab situation, maybe, but when added up I did more right than wrong, I just got took by a shitty cabby,

The underage drinking ticket that is first listed wasn't even legal. I actually got money from damages from the city along with thousands of others in a huge class action suit.

The two disorderly and resisting charges occured in a southern NJ shore town by Special Police Offices (college students). Anyone in NJ understands the difference of getting a disorderly conduct charge in say Wildwood vs Newark or some town thats not seasonal, its almost two different standards.

Do I hold responsibilty at all? At a bare minimum at least yes, because I was present and took part somehow, but none of what is listed measures up to what it sounds like at face value, thats why it was all dismissed.


that's a nice laundry list of excuses

glitter is right, law probably isn't a good investment for you

chrisokc
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Re: Long Arrest Record, C&F What will they think???

Postby chrisokc » Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:15 am

I don't think you have anything to worry about. I've heard that you can contact the bar in some states and speak with someone who can give you an idea of where you stand, but that isn't the case in other states. The main thing is don't try to cover any of it up. Make sure you disclose everything to the schools to which you apply so that the charges on your applications will match the charges you disclose to the state bar. The only issue I could see giving you trouble is the recency of the last charge, but the charge wasn't serious. Also, the fact that a charge was expunged does carry weight. In some states, the bar is prohibited from considering an expunged charge against an applicant, but be aware that there are different "levels" of expungement. In Texas, you don't even have to disclose charges that are expunged in a certain manner. I think it's still safer to disclose everything and add in your addendum that it was expunged. Since alcohol was involved in a couple of the incidents, the bar might wonder whether you have a drinking problem. Only you know if that is the case, but the bar may question whether you currently have a problem. If that's the case, you may have to give an explanation as to how you have it under control or have quit drinking. Just make sure that you don't get arrested again.

They won't consider the drunken cab ride to be a crime of moral turpitude just because the charge contains the word "theft." They're looking for things like embezzling from a client, breach of a fiduciary duty, or fraud.

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NYC Law
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Re: Long Arrest Record, C&F What will they think???

Postby NYC Law » Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:19 am

Stop doing stupid shit for a couple years and revisit the law school idea.

bp shinners
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Re: Long Arrest Record, C&F What will they think???

Postby bp shinners » Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:10 pm

naterj wrote:The only answer is to get in touch with your local state bar or an attorney who specializes in C and F issues. Some states have a "pre-screening" for 1Ls. I would suggest doing those things and not taking advice from those on TLS who for the most part have not been through the C and F process and don't really know what the fuck they're talking about.


This is the only advice you should be listening to. C&F is no joke; talk to someone who actually knows what they're talking about.

As a side note, it seems that a lot of your issues are alcohol related. I'm not saying you're an alcoholic, but voluntarily signing up with some type of treatment program might help mitigate how recent the last violation is, and some of the earlier ones.

emfall
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Re: Long Arrest Record, C&F What will they think???

Postby emfall » Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:39 pm

I don't know, I would actually look for an attorney in the news who has had some of the issues and call him and talk about it. He may be able to advise you. Maybe you could go to an anger management class. If they see a trend of rehabliltation and that you have mended relationships, maybe it could work. I would try to show I was seeking help for these issues and that would probably make a difference. Otherwise, that 50B will definitely stop you.

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bjsesq
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Re: Long Arrest Record, C&F What will they think???

Postby bjsesq » Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:43 pm

jra5070 wrote:
glitter178 wrote:
jra5070 wrote:
glitter178 wrote:Impressive history.


Law school would be a very, very poor investment for you. Try something else, like politician maybe. The standards there seem to have become nearly nonexistent.


Don't be a douche. When you add it all together on normal job applications when asked "have you been convicted of a crime" the answer is still no. So stop making it seem like its a string of freakin burglaries.


Hold the fucking phone. You have a string of legal issues spanning 12 years. I'm not being a douche; I'm suggesting that you find a different profession. Are you kidding? There are threads on this forum about students graduating from top 10 schools with perfect records who are graduating unemployed and desperate. What do you expect to accomplish with your record? Are you mad that the opinion is that you shouldnt attend law school ?


No I am mad that you say things like, "your record". You mean a 12 year history of dismissals? It's only an issue in C&F land. Every single thing listed has been expunged, hence employers are not legally allowed to ask.

Petty drinking crap between 17 and early twenties is hardly "Legal Issues" when taken into the context of no criminal record.

The only medium hitter in my list is the 4 months of probation.

If I am eligible to hold a Top Secret Clearance in the Military, the underlying stories cannot be that bad.

Its only in TLS where a dismissed drinking ticket turns into a "record".

My questions revolved around school and C&F, seeing that is where the catch 22 comes into play about convictions/dismissed/expunged = guilty.

Can I help it that an ex girlfriend found it amusing to call the cops every freaking day claiming I called her, No.

Can I control the Cab situation, maybe, but when added up I did more right than wrong, I just got took by a shitty cabby,

The underage drinking ticket that is first listed wasn't even legal. I actually got money from damages from the city along with thousands of others in a huge class action suit.

The two disorderly and resisting charges occured in a southern NJ shore town by Special Police Offices (college students). Anyone in NJ understands the difference of getting a disorderly conduct charge in say Wildwood vs Newark or some town thats not seasonal, its almost two different standards.

Do I hold responsibilty at all? At a bare minimum at least yes, because I was present and took part somehow, but none of what is listed measures up to what it sounds like at face value, thats why it was all dismissed.


You obviously arent interested in people's opinion, only arguing your position. That's fine, but the thread title is a bit misleading.




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