Running a Law Firm like a Business

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paratactical
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Re: Running a Law Firm like a Business

Postby paratactical » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:13 pm

Maserati91 wrote:In the most part yes, but if you take an example like boies schiller and flexner, he created it a 237 attorney fir with 10 offices in 14 years.. but he did have a amazing reputation and client base beforehand while in BigLaw

Sure. But do you know how hard it is to get hired at a place like Cravath where you can build that reputation? The point isn't that you can't do it, but that there are many steps between being a 19 year old business major and having the opportunity, capital and reputation you need to open any firm, let alone a large, successful firm in a saturated market like NYC. By all means, go for the gold, but if your long-term goal is owning and operating your own business, the legal field is not the best choice to meet that goal.

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Maserati91
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Re: Running a Law Firm like a Business

Postby Maserati91 » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:18 pm

paratactical wrote:
Maserati91 wrote:In the most part yes, but if you take an example like boies schiller and flexner, he created it a 237 attorney fir with 10 offices in 14 years.. but he did have a amazing reputation and client base beforehand while in BigLaw

Sure. But do you know how hard it is to get hired at a place like Cravath where you can build that reputation? The point isn't that you can't do it, but that there are many steps between being a 19 year old business major and having the opportunity, capital and reputation you need to open any firm, let alone a large, successful firm in a saturated market like NYC. By all means, go for the gold, but if your long-term goal is owning and operating your own business, the legal field is not the best choice to meet that goal.


If you're coming out of a T-14, is it that hard to get hired? I don't know much about BigLaw recruiting so sorry if this question comes off bad

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NYC Law
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Re: Running a Law Firm like a Business

Postby NYC Law » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:24 pm

Maserati91 wrote:If you're coming out of a T-14, is it that hard to get hired? I don't know much about BigLaw recruiting so sorry if this question comes off bad


What you seem confused by is how immensely difficult it is to make partner.

And most T14s do pretty good in biglaw hiring, but it's by no means a guarantee (especially someplace like Cravath, the 2nd ranked firm. It's very difficult to be hired there).

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paratactical
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Re: Running a Law Firm like a Business

Postby paratactical » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:25 pm

Maserati91 wrote:If you're coming out of a T-14, is it that hard to get hired? I don't know much about BigLaw recruiting so sorry if this question comes off bad

It depends on a lot of factors, but there is a vast difference in the difficulty based upon the school you go to. Check out this thread where Columbia students (one of the top 6 law schools in the country) worry about getting jobs because they are at median. That doesn't even begin to speak to problems if you're below median or at median at part of the lower T14. It is a difficult field to really make the big bucks in - it's not what it is perceived to be by people not in the field. This is part of the reason why people were poking fun at you.

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Paraflam
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Re: Running a Law Firm like a Business

Postby Paraflam » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:40 pm

Maserati91 wrote:In the most part yes, but if you take an example like boies schiller and flexner, he created it a 237 attorney fir with 10 offices in 14 years.. but he did have a amazing reputation and client base beforehand while in BigLaw

Maserati91 wrote:Person: "GL with that, you know how many people fail.. you have to be extremelyyy lucky"
Me: "I know but I'm gonna work really hard, besides there are plenty of people that did it"

Do you think that you are the only person whose goal is to become an extremely successful lawyer? Or that you're the first person that thought of "work[ing] really hard"? Or that no one has thought of "running a law firm like a business" until you? (Clearly you do, since you started this thread) It's not like everyone who goes into the profession sets mediocre goals and expectations for themselves and half-asses their job. A lot of people work their balls off but never make it into Biglaw, or even a T14 school.

Let's see, your 3.5 GPA already puts you at a disadvantage in terms of getting into a school that would be able to get you into a firm like Cravath. You'd need to score in the high 170's (99%+) to have a shot at a T6 school. That's roughly a 25-point increase from your diagnostic. Then, if you did get into a T6 school, you'd need to be above median in a class of extremely smart students to even have a chance of getting a summer job at a V100 firm, hoping that they offer you employment upon graduation. Then, you'd need to be good enough to stick around there for 7+ years working brutal hours in an extremely stressful environment and make partner, which less than 10% of associates do. Assuming you had an outstanding reputation and client base, then you could try to leave and start up your own firm.

My point is, you're better off taking all your money to the casino and plopping it on black or red. Your pipe dreams of driving a Lambo to your cushy law firm in the middle of Manhattan making half a million dollars with a bunch of lawyers working underneath you is cute and everything, but I'd rather bet on me winning the Powerball. HTH

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Maserati91
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Re: Running a Law Firm like a Business

Postby Maserati91 » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:53 pm

Paraflam wrote:
Maserati91 wrote:In the most part yes, but if you take an example like boies schiller and flexner, he created it a 237 attorney fir with 10 offices in 14 years.. but he did have a amazing reputation and client base beforehand while in BigLaw

Maserati91 wrote:Person: "GL with that, you know how many people fail.. you have to be extremelyyy lucky"
Me: "I know but I'm gonna work really hard, besides there are plenty of people that did it"

Do you think that you are the only person whose goal is to become an extremely successful lawyer? Or that you're the first person that thought of "work[ing] really hard"? Or that no one has thought of "running a law firm like a business" until you? (Clearly you do, since you started this thread) It's not like everyone who goes into the profession sets mediocre goals and expectations for themselves and half-asses their job. A lot of people work their balls off but never make it into Biglaw, or even a T14 school.

Let's see, your 3.5 GPA already puts you at a disadvantage in terms of getting into a school that would be able to get you into a firm like Cravath. You'd need to score in the high 170's (99%+) to have a shot at a T6 school. That's roughly a 25-point increase from your diagnostic. Then, if you did get into a T6 school, you'd need to be above median in a class of extremely smart students to even have a chance of getting a summer job at a V100 firm, hoping that they offer you employment upon graduation. Then, you'd need to be good enough to stick around there for 7+ years working brutal hours in an extremely stressful environment and make partner, which less than 10% of associates do. Assuming you had an outstanding reputation and client base, then you could try to leave and start up your own firm.

My point is, you're better off taking all your money to the casino and plopping it on black or red. Your pipe dreams of driving a Maserati to your cushy law firm in the middle of Manhattan making half a million dollars with a bunch of lawyers working underneath you is cute and everything, but I'd rather bet on me winning the Powerball. HTH


Ok point taken, I know it's hard. But, why not go for it anyway.. I mean I'd rather set a high goal than be satisfied with a average one. If worst comes to worst, I'll go into personal injury :|

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Paraflam
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Re: Running a Law Firm like a Business

Postby Paraflam » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:56 pm

Maserati91 wrote:Ok point taken, I know it's hard. But, why not go for it anyway.. I mean I'd rather set a high goal than be satisfied with a average one. If worst comes to worst, I'll go into personal injury :|

Worry about taking the LSAT first, bud.

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ak13
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Re: Running a Law Firm like a Business

Postby ak13 » Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:08 pm

paratactical wrote:
Maserati91 wrote:If you're coming out of a T-14, is it that hard to get hired? I don't know much about BigLaw recruiting so sorry if this question comes off bad

It depends on a lot of factors, but there is a vast difference in the difficulty based upon the school you go to. Check out this thread where Columbia students (one of the top 6 law schools in the country) worry about getting jobs because they are at median. That doesn't even begin to speak to problems if you're below median or at median at part of the lower T14. It is a difficult field to really make the big bucks in - it's not what it is perceived to be by people not in the field. This is part of the reason why people were poking fun at you.


para! love the new tar!

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paratactical
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Re: Running a Law Firm like a Business

Postby paratactical » Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:24 pm

ak13 wrote:para! love the new tar!

:lol: Thanks! GOD BLESS TIMMY THOMAS.

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ak13
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Re: Running a Law Firm like a Business

Postby ak13 » Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:09 pm

paratactical wrote:
ak13 wrote:para! love the new tar!

:lol: Thanks! GOD BLESS TIMMY THOMAS.


TCR
[/thread]

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nphsbuckeye
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Re: Running a Law Firm like a Business

Postby nphsbuckeye » Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:40 pm

Good luck, OP. I don't want to be a lawyer, but what you want is an arduous endeavor.

I believe that many law schools have classes about running a law firm, so circle that.

bdubs
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Re: Running a Law Firm like a Business

Postby bdubs » Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:56 pm

If OP is serious, almost all major firms have a partner level position that is almost exclusively business management. Most firms call these partners "managing partner" or something to that effect. They are in charge of revenue and resource management, overseeing firm finances, and finding new business/growth opportunities. If you are really just interested in the business or running a firm, this is a job you can shoot for.

Obviously everyone is going to point out that it is really rare to be the managing partner of a major firm, but I just figured I would note that you don't have to strike out on your own in order to "run" a law firm.
Last edited by bdubs on Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nickwar
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Re: Running a Law Firm like a Business

Postby nickwar » Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:08 pm

Actually the way I started my law firm was sort of like this but different. I got hired right after law school (I HADN'T EVEN PASSED THE BAR, LOL) to work for this guy Bruiser. He was cool, but I really just did all the work scamming for clients and didn't get paid much. He did buy me dinner one time, though, which was weird.

Anyway, I got this big insurance case while I was there. The problem was Bruiser got indicted for a laundry list of offenses and myself and a really short friend of mine decided to bolt and start our own joint.

So we rented a place in the ghetto -- operating on a shoestring and splitting everything down the middle. It was beautiful! And our only case -- the insurance case that we took from Bruiser's -- ended up netting us $50 million in punitives! But we didn't get a dime of it b/c the bank went belly up.

We bankrupted the bastards.

HTH!

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Paraflam
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Re: Running a Law Firm like a Business

Postby Paraflam » Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:58 pm

nickwar wrote:Actually the way I started my law firm was sort of like this but different. I got hired right after law school (I HADN'T EVEN PASSED THE BAR, LOL) to work for this guy Bruiser. He was cool, but I really just did all the work scamming for clients and didn't get paid much. He did buy me dinner one time, though, which was weird.

Anyway, I got this big insurance case while I was there. The problem was Bruiser got indicted for a laundry list of offenses and myself and a really short friend of mine decided to bolt and start our own joint.

So we rented a place in the ghetto -- operating on a shoestring and splitting everything down the middle. It was beautiful! And our only case -- the insurance case that we took from Bruiser's -- ended up netting us $50 million in punitives! But we didn't get a dime of it b/c the bank went belly up.

We bankrupted the bastards.

HTH!


I lol'd hard at this post :lol:

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sambeber
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Re: Running a Law Firm like a Business

Postby sambeber » Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:02 pm

nickwar wrote:Actually the way I started my law firm was sort of like this but different. I got hired right after law school (I HADN'T EVEN PASSED THE BAR, LOL) to work for this guy Bruiser. He was cool, but I really just did all the work scamming for clients and didn't get paid much. He did buy me dinner one time, though, which was weird.

Anyway, I got this big insurance case while I was there. The problem was Bruiser got indicted for a laundry list of offenses and myself and a really short friend of mine decided to bolt and start our own joint.

So we rented a place in the ghetto -- operating on a shoestring and splitting everything down the middle. It was beautiful! And our only case -- the insurance case that we took from Bruiser's -- ended up netting us $50 million in punitives! But we didn't get a dime of it b/c the bank went belly up.

We bankrupted the bastards.

HTH!


180.

kublaikahn
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Re: Running a Law Firm like a Business

Postby kublaikahn » Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:12 pm

.

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Maserati91
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Re: Running a Law Firm like a Business

Postby Maserati91 » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:10 pm

what does hth mean.. i've seen it on this forum many times :?

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thesealocust
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Re: Running a Law Firm like a Business

Postby thesealocust » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:10 pm

Maserati91 wrote:what does hth mean.. i've seen it on this forum many times :?


hope that helps. It's usually meant with snark.

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SOCRATiC
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Re: Running a Law Firm like a Business

Postby SOCRATiC » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:33 pm

NYC Law wrote:The fact that his username ends in 91 convinced me this might be legit.


lol.... indeed.

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rayiner
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Re: Running a Law Firm like a Business

Postby rayiner » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:42 pm

thesealocust wrote:
Maserati91 wrote:I'm actually becoming really excited.. the idea of owning and being chairman of a successful law firm one day with a lot of attorneys working for you in the middle of Manhattan.. that's the dream I'm gonna chase :P


You can't really own a law firm. The reason they're all[FN1] partnerships is because legal ethics rules prohibit certain kinds of ownership structures that screw around with who actually earns money off of a representation and the resulting incentives. Big firms do have attorneys that manage large numbers of associates, but they without exception are standing shoulder to shoulder with more than a handful of partner peers.

The reason, as I keep trying to stress, is that you can't commoditize the law. Even if you get famous nobody will hire your firm for your name and then let all of the work be done by another lawyer. You won't be able to attract top talent with money because top talent already has everything they need (recognition and skill) to generate fees.

In short, a prerequisite for any plan of this nature is being an absolutely fantastic lawyer.


In short, law is a terrible way to get rich. Without corporate ownership structure, there is a huge limit to your leverage and thus how much money you can make off the backs of other peoples' work.

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thesealocust
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Re: Running a Law Firm like a Business

Postby thesealocust » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:46 pm

rayiner wrote:In short, law is a terrible way to get rich.


How much did you earn today again? :P

I mean your point is spot on w/r/t leverage in law vs. other industry, but it's not like there's no money to be made as a lawyer. You just won't ever retire with billions after writing Windows.

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nphsbuckeye
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Re: Running a Law Firm like a Business

Postby nphsbuckeye » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:56 pm

rayiner wrote:In short, law is a terrible way to get rich. Without corporate ownership structure, there is a huge limit to your leverage and thus how much money you can make off the backs of other peoples' work.

There are, however, a crapton of ways to make money through investments and whatnot. You may not make CEO money, but you can facilitate income if you have investment knowledge. The OP is a business major, so he'll probably learn a few methods.

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thesealocust
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Re: Running a Law Firm like a Business

Postby thesealocust » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:56 pm

nphsbuckeye wrote:
rayiner wrote:In short, law is a terrible way to get rich. Without corporate ownership structure, there is a huge limit to your leverage and thus how much money you can make off the backs of other peoples' work.

There are, however, a crapton of ways to make money through investments and whatnot. You may not make CEO money, but you can facilitate income if you have investment knowledge. The OP is a business major, so he'll probably learn a few methods.


I've read your sentences a few times, but I'm still not sure they mean anything.

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: Running a Law Firm like a Business

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:57 pm

nphsbuckeye wrote:
rayiner wrote:In short, law is a terrible way to get rich. Without corporate ownership structure, there is a huge limit to your leverage and thus how much money you can make off the backs of other peoples' work.

There are, however, a crapton of ways to make money through investments and whatnot. You may not make CEO money, but you can facilitate income if you have investment knowledge. The OP is a business major, so he'll probably learn a few methods.

Yes. And this has absolutely nothing to do with your means of employment.

edit: dammit, locust, too fast.

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nphsbuckeye
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Re: Running a Law Firm like a Business

Postby nphsbuckeye » Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:03 am

thesealocust wrote:
nphsbuckeye wrote:
rayiner wrote:In short, law is a terrible way to get rich. Without corporate ownership structure, there is a huge limit to your leverage and thus how much money you can make off the backs of other peoples' work.

There are, however, a crapton of ways to make money through investments and whatnot. You may not make CEO money, but you can facilitate income if you have investment knowledge. The OP is a business major, so he'll probably learn a few methods.


I've read your sentences a few times, but I'm still not sure they mean anything.

What do you mean? I addressed that starting a very successful law firm may not make as much money for the founder as a successful company without a partnership, but one could still produce as much money as a CEO in a non-partnership (or whatever that jargon is).

If it's because I'm incoherently rambling, I apologize. I should start proofreading more often.




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