UG Schools' Mean GPAs Forum
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Re: UG Schools' Mean GPAs
Brown is a poor example for GPA purposes. In the very recent past, Brown University has allowed students to make a decision one month into the term that if their grade is below, for example, an "A", then that student then will be graded only on a pass-fail basis. Brown allows unlimited pass-fail courses in order to encourage students to take courses outside of their comfort zone.
P.S. Brown uses a grading system of "A", "B", "C" or "NC" unless the student elects pass-fail grading for that course.
P.S. Brown uses a grading system of "A", "B", "C" or "NC" unless the student elects pass-fail grading for that course.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- NYC Law
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Re: UG Schools' Mean GPAs
Aw man that sounds awesome. I REALLY wanted to be more involved in science courses during UG, but I was scared to death of them since I knew I wanted law school and they'd kill my GPA.CanadianWolf wrote:Brown is a poor example for GPA purposes. In the very recent past, Brown University has allowed students to make agreements with profs that if their grade is below, for example, an "A-", then that student then will be graded only on a pass-fail basis. Brown allows unlimited pass-fail courses in order to encourage students to take courses outside of their comfort zone.
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Re: UG Schools' Mean GPAs
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Last edited by 512 on Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Patriot1208
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Re: UG Schools' Mean GPAs
So what you are saying is that all schools should be graded on a bell curve that standardizes every college? Why should the median kid at Penn be forced into a B if 50% of the class is doing A level work? There is only so much you can demand of kids. And if a high number of the class writes amazing research papers on voting discrepancies in the last Russian election, then they should be rewarded for that. And seriously, what you are proposing only hurts hiring, and that is the whole reason people attend top schools anyways.Corwin wrote:Such a high average GPA means the program isn't hard enough by definition. It doesn't matter whether Brown's undergrad programs are harder compared to other schools. What matters is whether Brown's programs are hard enough for the students attending Brown. And apparently they aren't.Patriot1208 wrote:You do realize that it is extremely flawed to assume that a higher average gpa means it is easier to get a higher grade, right?Corwin wrote:LOL at the grade inflation at the Ivys.
Reed College is an example of one of only a few schools that does grading right.
- Patriot1208
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Re: UG Schools' Mean GPAs
Ya, brown is the extreme example. They let any class be taken pass/fail and you can switch almost the entire semester. And they don't give +'s or -'s.512 wrote:haha I've seen some statistic that Brown gives ~60% A's in the Liberal Arts department or something ridiculous like that. Makes me wish I went there... definitely would've if I'd known back then that I wanted to go to Law School.
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- ThomasMN
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Re: UG Schools' Mean GPAs
I agree. The fact is that most of the people who attend those "grade-inflated" ivies had stellar HS grades and standardized test scores. It should also be noted that all those "grade-inflated" schools also tend to have off the wall average LSAT scorers ( not to mention what their median LSAT might be).Patriot1208 wrote:So what you are saying is that all schools should be graded on a bell curve that standardizes every college? Why should the median kid at Penn be forced into a B if 50% of the class is doing A level work? There is only so much you can demand of kids. And if a high number of the class writes amazing research papers on voting discrepancies in the last Russian election, then they should be rewarded for that. And seriously, what you are proposing only hurts hiring, and that is the whole reason people attend top schools anyways.Corwin wrote:Such a high average GPA means the program isn't hard enough by definition. It doesn't matter whether Brown's undergrad programs are harder compared to other schools. What matters is whether Brown's programs are hard enough for the students attending Brown. And apparently they aren't.Patriot1208 wrote:You do realize that it is extremely flawed to assume that a higher average gpa means it is easier to get a higher grade, right?Corwin wrote:LOL at the grade inflation at the Ivys.
Reed College is an example of one of only a few schools that does grading right.
It should also be noted that admission deans know what schools are inflated etc. There is a reason that most law schools care more about your LSAT score than your GPA.
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Re: UG Schools' Mean GPAs
Damn, the mean GPA for the college of engineering at U of I is .27 below the school average. That blows.
Re: UG Schools' Mean GPAs
That reason is that its easier to compare students. A shitload of students can have a 3.5 Not many have a 170. It has nothing to do with grade inflation.ThomasMN wrote:It should also be noted that admission deans know what schools are inflated etc. There is a reason that most law schools care more about your LSAT score than your GPA.
- fatdouche
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Re: UG Schools' Mean GPAs
This guy knows his stuff.Curry wrote:That reason is that its easier to compare students. A shitload of students can have a 3.5 Not many have a 170. It has nothing to do with grade inflation.ThomasMN wrote:It should also be noted that admission deans know what schools are inflated etc. There is a reason that most law schools care more about your LSAT score than your GPA.
- ThomasMN
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Re: UG Schools' Mean GPAs
A shit-load of students also don't have a 4.0, or even a 3.9+. There is a reason ( beyond just USNWR ) that schools of all sorts use standardized tests like the LSAT to attempt and measure performance. Grades are not all given by a single centralized authority, the LSAT is.Curry wrote:That reason is that its easier to compare students. A shitload of students can have a 3.5 Not many have a 170. It has nothing to do with grade inflation.ThomasMN wrote:It should also be noted that admission deans know what schools are inflated etc. There is a reason that most law schools care more about your LSAT score than your GPA.
- fatdouche
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Re: UG Schools' Mean GPAs
None of that = Grade Inflation.ThomasMN wrote:A shit-load of students also don't have a 4.0, or even a 3.9+. There is a reason ( beyond just USNWR ) that schools of all sorts use standardized tests like the LSAT to attempt and measure performance. Grades are not all given by a single centralized authority, the LSAT is.Curry wrote:That reason is that its easier to compare students. A shitload of students can have a 3.5 Not many have a 170. It has nothing to do with grade inflation.ThomasMN wrote:It should also be noted that admission deans know what schools are inflated etc. There is a reason that most law schools care more about your LSAT score than your GPA.
- ThomasMN
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Re: UG Schools' Mean GPAs
The whole concept of why grade inflation happens is what pushes those: subjectivity of grade issuing authorities, serious statistical differences between the average grades given at different universities, and serious differences between grades given to different majors / colleges within a university. An admissions dean may not say outright grade inflation, but they will label every factor that goes INTO grade inflation as to why they use the LSAT.fatdouche wrote:None of that = Grade Inflation.ThomasMN wrote:A shit-load of students also don't have a 4.0, or even a 3.9+. There is a reason ( beyond just USNWR ) that schools of all sorts use standardized tests like the LSAT to attempt and measure performance. Grades are not all given by a single centralized authority, the LSAT is.Curry wrote:That reason is that its easier to compare students. A shitload of students can have a 3.5 Not many have a 170. It has nothing to do with grade inflation.ThomasMN wrote:It should also be noted that admission deans know what schools are inflated etc. There is a reason that most law schools care more about your LSAT score than your GPA.
- Corwin
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Re: UG Schools' Mean GPAs
"A" level work should never be 50% of the class if the class is appropriately geared to the student body. Yes, we could all do "A" level work in finger painting, but why go to college to take classes like that? College courses should be extremely difficult and extremely rewarding. As for the claim that strict grading hurts hiring, it simply doesn't. The average GPA of Reed College is somewhere around 3.0 and their student body does very well: http://web.reed.edu/ir/awards.html. Same goes for top Engineering programs where the average GPA is usually around a 3.0 as well.Patriot1208 wrote:So what you are saying is that all schools should be graded on a bell curve that standardizes every college? Why should the median kid at Penn be forced into a B if 50% of the class is doing A level work? There is only so much you can demand of kids. And if a high number of the class writes amazing research papers on voting discrepancies in the last Russian election, then they should be rewarded for that. And seriously, what you are proposing only hurts hiring, and that is the whole reason people attend top schools anyways.Corwin wrote:Such a high average GPA means the program isn't hard enough by definition. It doesn't matter whether Brown's undergrad programs are harder compared to other schools. What matters is whether Brown's programs are hard enough for the students attending Brown. And apparently they aren't.Patriot1208 wrote:You do realize that it is extremely flawed to assume that a higher average gpa means it is easier to get a higher grade, right?Corwin wrote:LOL at the grade inflation at the Ivys.
Reed College is an example of one of only a few schools that does grading right.
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- Corwin
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Re: UG Schools' Mean GPAs
How do you know what the mean GPA is for the college of engineering at U of I?Desert Fox wrote:Damn, the mean GPA for the college of engineering at U of I is .27 below the school average. That blows.
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Re: UG Schools' Mean GPAs
They accidentally emailed everyone in my depart a list of everyones; names, address, student ID, GPA, and other info.Corwin wrote:How do you know what the mean GPA is for the college of engineering at U of I?Desert Fox wrote:Damn, the mean GPA for the college of engineering at U of I is .27 below the school average. That blows.
It was interesting. All different sub groups, asian, white, indian, black, hispanic, male, female all ended up at damn near 3.0 mean, and 3.1 median.
- Patriot1208
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Re: UG Schools' Mean GPAs
Except, it does hurt people in jobs. Mckinsey has a fairly strict 3.5 cutoff, no matter what school you go to. There will still be people above those grades because someone has to do well. But it will certainly hurt the number of people who get these tops of jobs. Same things with law schools, other graduate programs, etc. Then people lose their incentive to go to Harvard. Harvard stops placing as many people into consulting, banking, top law schools, top graduate programs, etc. Engineering is a different story because it's that way across the field, not at one school or the other. What happens is the median kid (say 3.0 in your scenario) at Harvard ends up being worse off in the job market than the top 25% kid at Notre Dame. Sorry, there is only so much you can ask of undergrads. In your scenario you want the median kid at Wisconsin to have the same law school possibilities as the median kid at Harvard, even though you'd suspect that the median kid at Harvard has had a lot more academic success in his lifetime.Corwin wrote:"A" level work should never be 50% of the class if the class is appropriately geared to the student body. Yes, we could all do "A" level work in finger painting, but why go to college to take classes like that? College courses should be extremely difficult and extremely rewarding. As for the claim that strict grading hurts hiring, it simply doesn't. The average GPA of Reed College is somewhere around 3.0 and their student body does very well: http://web.reed.edu/ir/awards.html. Same goes for top Engineering programs where the average GPA is usually around a 3.0 as well.Patriot1208 wrote:So what you are saying is that all schools should be graded on a bell curve that standardizes every college? Why should the median kid at Penn be forced into a B if 50% of the class is doing A level work? There is only so much you can demand of kids. And if a high number of the class writes amazing research papers on voting discrepancies in the last Russian election, then they should be rewarded for that. And seriously, what you are proposing only hurts hiring, and that is the whole reason people attend top schools anyways.Corwin wrote:Such a high average GPA means the program isn't hard enough by definition. It doesn't matter whether Brown's undergrad programs are harder compared to other schools. What matters is whether Brown's programs are hard enough for the students attending Brown. And apparently they aren't.Patriot1208 wrote: You do realize that it is extremely flawed to assume that a higher average gpa means it is easier to get a higher grade, right?
Reed College is an example of one of only a few schools that does grading right.
- Corwin
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Re: UG Schools' Mean GPAs
That's a whole lot of guesswork with some pretty dubious claims. I find it highly unlikely that Harvard graduates would stop getting hired if Harvard started grading its classes harder. Businesses are more than capable of taking the median GPA of a particular institution when interviewing candidates. I hate to keep bringing up Reed, but all transcripts from Reed are accompanied with a card explaining the tough grading system. Businesses that don't adapt simply will miss out on the best talent.Patriot1208 wrote:Except, it does hurt people in jobs. Mckinsey has a fairly strict 3.5 cutoff, no matter what school you go to. There will still be people above those grades because someone has to do well. But it will certainly hurt the number of people who get these tops of jobs. Same things with law schools, other graduate programs, etc. Then people lose their incentive to go to Harvard. Harvard stops placing as many people into consulting, banking, top law schools, top graduate programs, etc. Engineering is a different story because it's that way across the field, not at one school or the other. What happens is the median kid (say 3.0 in your scenario) at Harvard ends up being worse off in the job market than the top 25% kid at Notre Dame. Sorry, there is only so much you can ask of undergrads. In your scenario you want the median kid at Wisconsin to have the same law school possibilities as the median kid at Harvard, even though you'd suspect that the median kid at Harvard has had a lot more academic success in his lifetime.Corwin wrote:"A" level work should never be 50% of the class if the class is appropriately geared to the student body. Yes, we could all do "A" level work in finger painting, but why go to college to take classes like that? College courses should be extremely difficult and extremely rewarding. As for the claim that strict grading hurts hiring, it simply doesn't. The average GPA of Reed College is somewhere around 3.0 and their student body does very well: http://web.reed.edu/ir/awards.html. Same goes for top Engineering programs where the average GPA is usually around a 3.0 as well.Patriot1208 wrote: So what you are saying is that all schools should be graded on a bell curve that standardizes every college? Why should the median kid at Penn be forced into a B if 50% of the class is doing A level work? There is only so much you can demand of kids. And if a high number of the class writes amazing research papers on voting discrepancies in the last Russian election, then they should be rewarded for that. And seriously, what you are proposing only hurts hiring, and that is the whole reason people attend top schools anyways.
GPA cutoffs are overblown as well. I've landed both internship and a full time position at places with GPA "cutoffs" much higher than 3.5. You simply have to work around them and prove your the most capable candidate.
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- Patriot1208
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Re: UG Schools' Mean GPAs
There are always exceptions to the GPA cutoffs because that's the nature of business. But it still matters for many candidates. It's a lot of speculation, sure, but if follows a logical trail. And it's not speculation when it comes to grad schools because we know raw numbers matter. Back in the day lineage and the good ole' boys club mattered even more than they do now. People could get accepted to top law schools simply because they went to Harvard. And it seems very plausible that we could shift back towards this with your global median proposal.Corwin wrote:That's a whole lot of guesswork with some pretty dubious claims. I find it highly unlikely that Harvard graduates would stop getting hired if Harvard started grading its classes harder. Businesses are more than capable of taking the median GPA of a particular institution when interviewing candidates. I hate to keep bringing up Reed, but all transcripts from Reed are accompanied with a card explaining the tough grading system. Businesses that don't adapt simply will miss out on the best talent.Patriot1208 wrote:Except, it does hurt people in jobs. Mckinsey has a fairly strict 3.5 cutoff, no matter what school you go to. There will still be people above those grades because someone has to do well. But it will certainly hurt the number of people who get these tops of jobs. Same things with law schools, other graduate programs, etc. Then people lose their incentive to go to Harvard. Harvard stops placing as many people into consulting, banking, top law schools, top graduate programs, etc. Engineering is a different story because it's that way across the field, not at one school or the other. What happens is the median kid (say 3.0 in your scenario) at Harvard ends up being worse off in the job market than the top 25% kid at Notre Dame. Sorry, there is only so much you can ask of undergrads. In your scenario you want the median kid at Wisconsin to have the same law school possibilities as the median kid at Harvard, even though you'd suspect that the median kid at Harvard has had a lot more academic success in his lifetime.Corwin wrote:"A" level work should never be 50% of the class if the class is appropriately geared to the student body. Yes, we could all do "A" level work in finger painting, but why go to college to take classes like that? College courses should be extremely difficult and extremely rewarding. As for the claim that strict grading hurts hiring, it simply doesn't. The average GPA of Reed College is somewhere around 3.0 and their student body does very well: http://web.reed.edu/ir/awards.html. Same goes for top Engineering programs where the average GPA is usually around a 3.0 as well.Patriot1208 wrote: So what you are saying is that all schools should be graded on a bell curve that standardizes every college? Why should the median kid at Penn be forced into a B if 50% of the class is doing A level work? There is only so much you can demand of kids. And if a high number of the class writes amazing research papers on voting discrepancies in the last Russian election, then they should be rewarded for that. And seriously, what you are proposing only hurts hiring, and that is the whole reason people attend top schools anyways.
GPA cutoffs are overblown as well. I've landed both internship and a full time position at places with GPA "cutoffs" much higher than 3.5. You simply have to work around them and prove your the most capable candidate.
And I understand Reed is a good school, but it's my understanding that Reed used to be more highly esteemed than it is now. You never really hear of read in the same sense these days when it comes to recruiting for the top positions.
- Ikki
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Re: UG Schools' Mean GPAs
NYC Law wrote:Above average actually...Ikki wrote:So, we still don't know? I hope it's the mean of the entire university, 3.27 is pretty shitty...CanadianWolf wrote:My understanding is that the mean GPA is comprised of only students from that university who are applying to law school. This is important because universities are often divided into "colleges" or "schools" which calculate their own mean or median GPAs. Typically, engineering schools' GPA is lower than the university GPA rendering comparison to those applying to law school almost meaningless.
I called LSAC twice today & asked whether the mean or median school GPA included only those applying to law school or all university students. Somewhat surprisingly, I received two different answers from two different LSAC reps.
It won't necessarily be above average if the LSAC reported figures only pertain to law school applicants.
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Re: UG Schools' Mean GPAs
Key To The Master Law School Report-------Revised 6/25/2010
Transcript Analysis
GPA College Mean: The average GPA for law school candidates who graduated at any time period from the institution and who registered for the Credential Assembly Service during the most recent three years you attended the school. There must be a minimum of 50 candidates in the LSAC database to produce this calculation.
Transcript Analysis
GPA College Mean: The average GPA for law school candidates who graduated at any time period from the institution and who registered for the Credential Assembly Service during the most recent three years you attended the school. There must be a minimum of 50 candidates in the LSAC database to produce this calculation.
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Re: UG Schools' Mean GPAs
The college GPA mean reported by LSDAS, therefore, refers only to law school applicants from that school during a relevant 3 year period. It is not a college or university-wide GPA.
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- Ikki
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Re: UG Schools' Mean GPAs
Looking at UCSD's Student Research and Information (LinkRemoved) page, the mean GPA for the entire university was around a 3.00 from Fall 2000 to Fall 2010. That's rough :/CanadianWolf wrote:The college GPA mean reported by LSDAS, therefore, refers only to law school applicants from that school during a relevant 3 year period. It is not a college or university-wide GPA.
- NYC Law
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Re: UG Schools' Mean GPAs
If it wasn't for inflation the average gpa should be 2.0 everywhere. Doesn't a C equate to 'average' performance?
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Re: UG Schools' Mean GPAs
That university--wide GPA, however, is not reported by LSDAS to law schools.
- ThomasMN
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Re: UG Schools' Mean GPAs
I'm just going to assume that you are a Reed graduate as you are extremely biased. First off, Reed != Harvard. I would even put out there that Reed != LACs like Carleton and Macalester, to just throw out two good LACs that I know from Minnesota. That is my "counter-trolling."Corwin wrote:That's a whole lot of guesswork with some pretty dubious claims. I find it highly unlikely that Harvard graduates would stop getting hired if Harvard started grading its classes harder. Businesses are more than capable of taking the median GPA of a particular institution when interviewing candidates. I hate to keep bringing up Reed, but all transcripts from Reed are accompanied with a card explaining the tough grading system. Businesses that don't adapt simply will miss out on the best talent.Patriot1208 wrote:Except, it does hurt people in jobs. Mckinsey has a fairly strict 3.5 cutoff, no matter what school you go to. There will still be people above those grades because someone has to do well. But it will certainly hurt the number of people who get these tops of jobs. Same things with law schools, other graduate programs, etc. Then people lose their incentive to go to Harvard. Harvard stops placing as many people into consulting, banking, top law schools, top graduate programs, etc. Engineering is a different story because it's that way across the field, not at one school or the other. What happens is the median kid (say 3.0 in your scenario) at Harvard ends up being worse off in the job market than the top 25% kid at Notre Dame. Sorry, there is only so much you can ask of undergrads. In your scenario you want the median kid at Wisconsin to have the same law school possibilities as the median kid at Harvard, even though you'd suspect that the median kid at Harvard has had a lot more academic success in his lifetime.Corwin wrote:"A" level work should never be 50% of the class if the class is appropriately geared to the student body. Yes, we could all do "A" level work in finger painting, but why go to college to take classes like that? College courses should be extremely difficult and extremely rewarding. As for the claim that strict grading hurts hiring, it simply doesn't. The average GPA of Reed College is somewhere around 3.0 and their student body does very well: http://web.reed.edu/ir/awards.html. Same goes for top Engineering programs where the average GPA is usually around a 3.0 as well.Patriot1208 wrote: So what you are saying is that all schools should be graded on a bell curve that standardizes every college? Why should the median kid at Penn be forced into a B if 50% of the class is doing A level work? There is only so much you can demand of kids. And if a high number of the class writes amazing research papers on voting discrepancies in the last Russian election, then they should be rewarded for that. And seriously, what you are proposing only hurts hiring, and that is the whole reason people attend top schools anyways.
GPA cutoffs are overblown as well. I've landed both internship and a full time position at places with GPA "cutoffs" much higher than 3.5. You simply have to work around them and prove your the most capable candidate.
Your bias aside, how does giving someone a 3.0 help things out? I get the whole puff your chest out my grades are worth more than your grades thing, but does it really help anyone learn. I mean we could curve every college course to where only one person out of a class of 20 gets an A, but what does that achieve? All you're doing is changing the number that is GPA. The real goal of college is to educate students and their grades are supposed to be a sign of exactly how much of that education they soaked up. Its not supposed to be a, look my 4.0 is bigger and thicker than your 3.8.
If schools like Harvard "punished" their students by just smashing their student body and playing a game of academic highlander what would be the incentive for students? Really good ( but not the "best" ) Harvard students would go to Reed and proceed to take all those kids lunch money and then where would you be?
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