Blind man sues American Bar Association

(Applications Advice, Letters of Recommendation . . . )
splitmuch
Posts: 968
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:27 pm

Re: Blind man sues American Bar Association

Postby splitmuch » Tue May 24, 2011 5:46 pm

Give the test in electronic format and prevent anyone from bring scratch paper.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Blind man sues American Bar Association

Postby 09042014 » Tue May 24, 2011 5:47 pm

splitmuch wrote:Give the test in electronic format and prevent anyone from bring scratch paper.


It's designed to be written. You'd have to redo the test. At least the LG.

splitmuch
Posts: 968
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:27 pm

Re: Blind man sues American Bar Association

Postby splitmuch » Tue May 24, 2011 5:51 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
splitmuch wrote:Give the test in electronic format and prevent anyone from bring scratch paper.


It's designed to be written. You'd have to redo the test. At least the LG.



Its designed to use diagramming? Diagramming may be a tool that helps (and gives an unfair disadvantage to those who cannot) but its by no means necessary to answer the questions.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Blind man sues American Bar Association

Postby 09042014 » Tue May 24, 2011 5:54 pm

splitmuch wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
splitmuch wrote:Give the test in electronic format and prevent anyone from bring scratch paper.


It's designed to be written. You'd have to redo the test. At least the LG.



Its designed to use diagramming? Diagramming may be a tool that helps (and gives an unfair disadvantage to those who cannot) but its by no means necessary to answer the questions.


It would significantly change the difficulty.

kublaikahn
Posts: 647
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:47 am

Re: Blind man sues American Bar Association

Postby kublaikahn » Tue May 24, 2011 6:01 pm

Would the guy still need to prove harm? Not getting into Cooley is actually beneficial. What's he suing for -150k.

Curry

Re: Blind man sues American Bar Association

Postby Curry » Tue May 24, 2011 6:02 pm

0ls.

kublaikahn
Posts: 647
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:47 am

Re: Blind man sues American Bar Association

Postby kublaikahn » Tue May 24, 2011 6:03 pm

Curry wrote:0ls.

0L-ish, but still funny, no?

splitmuch
Posts: 968
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:27 pm

Re: Blind man sues American Bar Association

Postby splitmuch » Tue May 24, 2011 6:05 pm

kublaikahn wrote:
Curry wrote:0ls.

0L-ish, but still funny, no?



I thought it was funny, but im a 0L too.

splitmuch
Posts: 968
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:27 pm

Re: Blind man sues American Bar Association

Postby splitmuch » Tue May 24, 2011 6:07 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
splitmuch wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
splitmuch wrote:Give the test in electronic format and prevent anyone from bring scratch paper.


It's designed to be written. You'd have to redo the test. At least the LG.



Its designed to use diagramming? Diagramming may be a tool that helps (and gives an unfair disadvantage to those who cannot) but its by no means necessary to answer the questions.


It would significantly change the difficulty.


But the scores are scaled so not as much. It would, though, test additional attributes that may or may not be related to law schooll performance.

User avatar
JusticeHarlan
Posts: 1434
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: Blind man sues American Bar Association

Postby JusticeHarlan » Tue May 24, 2011 6:39 pm

kublaikahn wrote:Would the guy still need to prove harm? Not getting into Cooley is actually beneficial. What's he suing for -150k.

He's not suing for money, at least in the initial complaint. He's seeking declaratory and injunctive relief: he wants the court to say the requirement of test violates the ADA, and to stop the ABA from mandating it for accreditation purposes.

kublaikahn
Posts: 647
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:47 am

Re: Blind man sues American Bar Association

Postby kublaikahn » Tue May 24, 2011 7:03 pm

.

User avatar
JusticeHarlan
Posts: 1434
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: Blind man sues American Bar Association

Postby JusticeHarlan » Tue May 24, 2011 9:00 pm

So here's a provision they cite as being violated (paragraph 41 of the complaint (LinkRemoved)):
28 CFR 36.309 wrote:(a) General. Any private entity that offers examinations or courses related to applications, licensing, certification, or credentialing for secondary or postsecondary education, professional, or trade purposes shall offer such examinations or courses in a place and manner accessible to persons with disabilities or offer alternative accessible arrangements for such individuals.

Does that sound like they should be suing the ABA, or LSAC?

User avatar
Lawquacious
Posts: 2037
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:36 am

Re: Blind man sues American Bar Association

Postby Lawquacious » Tue May 24, 2011 9:06 pm

Desert Fox wrote:IMO he should take a 2-LR/ 2-RC test.

LG while blind puts him at a disadvantage.



I think no games could give an unfair advantage (though I realize that with the games he may have an unfair disadvantage). If I had been able to take the test without logic games I'm pretty sure I would be at a different school right now (but I realize I didn't have the disadvantage he would have obviously, because I could look at any notes I made for the games). But logic games ('analytical reasoning' section) happened to be by far my worst section-- even after tons and tons of practice. I know that's not the case for a lot of people, and that there are some for whom the games is the easiest section. So I think it really just depends on an individual's strengths and weaknesses as to what may or may not help with section composition alterations (or omissions). The problem is that once the test is changed for one person it makes it harder to compare his or her score with others, even if they would be otherwise disadvantaged. Then again I really think some individual tests play to one person's strengths more than to another's, so I don't necessarily think the test is entirely objectively fair in some ideal sense in any case. But perhaps that is where retakes and study over a long period of time can help even any individual test and test-taker strength/weakness interactions (at least as far as individual administrations go).
Last edited by Lawquacious on Tue May 24, 2011 9:45 pm, edited 6 times in total.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Blind man sues American Bar Association

Postby 09042014 » Tue May 24, 2011 9:09 pm

Lawquacious wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:IMO he should take a 2-LR/ 2-RC test.

LG while blind puts him at a disadvantage.



I think that could give an unfair advantage (though I realize that with it he may have an unfair disadvantage). If I had been able to take the test without logic games I'm pretty sure I would be at a different school right now. But logic games ('analytical reasoning' section) happened to be by far my worst section-- even after tons and tons of practice (and I realize I didn't have the disadvantage he would have, in that I could look at any notes I made for the games).


So the guy possibly gets a slight break. He's blind.

Also, maybe with vision he'd get a 0 in LG and he'd do worse than if he was able sighted.

User avatar
acrossthelake
Posts: 4432
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 5:27 pm

Re: Blind man sues American Bar Association

Postby acrossthelake » Tue May 24, 2011 9:11 pm

Desert Fox wrote:IMO he should take a 2-LR/ 2-RC test.

LG while blind puts him at a disadvantage.


+1

LG is the weakest correlated section anyway. I didn't draw out full diagrams when I took the exam, but being able to make small notations to offload some of the information from my working memory greatly accelerated the process, and I wouldn't have been as quick with it if I had to keep it all in my head.

ETA: Alternatively, he could be given some absurd amount of time with the LG section.

User avatar
Patriot1208
Posts: 7044
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 11:28 am

Re: Blind man sues American Bar Association

Postby Patriot1208 » Tue May 24, 2011 9:12 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:IMO he should take a 2-LR/ 2-RC test.

LG while blind puts him at a disadvantage.



I think that could give an unfair advantage (though I realize that with it he may have an unfair disadvantage). If I had been able to take the test without logic games I'm pretty sure I would be at a different school right now. But logic games ('analytical reasoning' section) happened to be by far my worst section-- even after tons and tons of practice (and I realize I didn't have the disadvantage he would have, in that I could look at any notes I made for the games).


So the guy possibly gets a slight break. He's blind.
Also, maybe with vision he'd get a 0 in LG and he'd do worse than if he was able sighted.
LG is a lot of peoples best section, fuck reading and shit

User avatar
Lawquacious
Posts: 2037
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:36 am

Re: Blind man sues American Bar Association

Postby Lawquacious » Tue May 24, 2011 9:15 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:IMO he should take a 2-LR/ 2-RC test.

LG while blind puts him at a disadvantage.



I think that could give an unfair advantage (though I realize that with it he may have an unfair disadvantage). If I had been able to take the test without logic games I'm pretty sure I would be at a different school right now. But logic games ('analytical reasoning' section) happened to be by far my worst section-- even after tons and tons of practice (and I realize I didn't have the disadvantage he would have, in that I could look at any notes I made for the games).


So the guy possibly gets a slight break. He's blind.

Also, maybe with vision he'd get a 0 in LG and he'd do worse than if he was able sighted.



I edited my earlier post because it did come off one-sided I think..

User avatar
JusticeHarlan
Posts: 1434
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: Blind man sues American Bar Association

Postby JusticeHarlan » Tue May 24, 2011 9:19 pm

acrossthelake wrote:ETA: Alternatively, he could be given some absurd amount of time with the LG section.

There's an appendix to the complaint with a response letter from LSAC (they don't have the request it's in response to) that says, essentially, "you're requesting so much extra time, it's probably best for you to ask schools to waive the LSAT requirement."

That letter is from 1995 and not addressed to the plaintiff, however. So it seems someone, with some condition, requested what LSAC thought was an absurd amount of time, and was denied.

User avatar
Bill Cosby
Posts: 331
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 2:56 am

Re: Blind man sues American Bar Association

Postby Bill Cosby » Thu May 26, 2011 11:46 am

JusticeHarlan wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:ETA: Alternatively, he could be given some absurd amount of time with the LG section.

There's an appendix to the complaint with a response letter from LSAC (they don't have the request it's in response to) that says, essentially, "you're requesting so much extra time, it's probably best for you to ask schools to waive the LSAT requirement."

That letter is from 1995 and not addressed to the plaintiff, however. So it seems someone, with some condition, requested what LSAC thought was an absurd amount of time, and was denied.


Does it state how much extra time they were requesting?

User avatar
bgdddymtty
Posts: 697
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:59 pm

Re: Blind man sues American Bar Association

Postby bgdddymtty » Thu May 26, 2011 11:59 am

splitmuch wrote:Diagramming may be a tool that helps . . . but its by no means necessary to answer the questions.
TITCR. And, as on the LSAT, the only credited response.

User avatar
JusticeHarlan
Posts: 1434
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: Blind man sues American Bar Association

Postby JusticeHarlan » Thu May 26, 2011 3:34 pm

Bill Cosby wrote:
JusticeHarlan wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:ETA: Alternatively, he could be given some absurd amount of time with the LG section.

There's an appendix to the complaint with a response letter from LSAC (they don't have the request it's in response to) that says, essentially, "you're requesting so much extra time, it's probably best for you to ask schools to waive the LSAT requirement."

That letter is from 1995 and not addressed to the plaintiff, however. So it seems someone, with some condition, requested what LSAC thought was an absurd amount of time, and was denied.


Does it state how much extra time they were requesting?

Nope; again, all they included was a copy of a 1995 response from LSAC to a letter we don't have, stating that the request (which we don't have the specifics for) was so much that it was better for the applicant to request a waiver of the LSAT from law schools. That's about it.




Return to “Law School Admissions Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: whodareswins and 7 guests