Top Law Schools

Hey TSL people,

I go to a state school and I'm a double major in music business and law & society. Due to my passion for music and the first major listed I was extremely limited in my school selection. I was able to choose from only one school..... bummer much but I love it there. So I wound up at a school with an up and coming reputation however it's not nationally known except for in its graduate and law programs.

My dream school is Columbia however many of the music majors found on the TSL stats pages at T14 schools were waitlisted or rejected even with some outstanding credentials including 172+ Lsat scores paired with 3.8+ gpa's. I have also heard that music majors fall under the "Interesting/Unique" category that law schools look for in applicants.

My question is with scores like these and an "interesting/unique" major why would these people have only a decent track record? Do the interesting majors only matter for T20 or T50 schools and is it just the luck of the draw found in most T14 admissions? Also with this "interesting/unique major, would my school outside of USnews "Top 100" schools hurt me even if I were to have that 172+/3.8+ score that I will also have for my applications?

Also what does TSL think about music majors???

Thanks for your time, Sorry for the super long post haha
-Jcc

jcopeland16 wrote:Hey TSL people,

I go to a state school and I'm a double major in music business and law & society. Due to my passion for music and the first major listed I was extremely limited in my school selection. I was able to choose from only one school..... bummer much but I love it there. So I wound up at a school with an up and coming reputation however it's not nationally known except for in its graduate and law programs.

My dream school is Columbia however many of the music majors found on the TSL stats pages at T14 schools were waitlisted or rejected even with some outstanding credentials including 172+ Lsat scores paired with 3.8+ gpa's. I have also heard that music majors fall under the "Interesting/Unique" category that law schools look for in applicants.

My question is with scores like these and an "interesting/unique" major why would these people have only a decent track record? Do the interesting majors only matter for T20 or T50 schools and is it just the luck of the draw found in most T14 admissions? Also with this "interesting/unique major, would my school outside of USnews "Top 100" schools hurt me even if I were to have that 172+/3.8+ score that I will also have for my applications?

Also what does TSL think about music majors???

Thanks for your time, Sorry for the super long post haha
-Jcc

Your major isn't going to make a noticeable impact on your cycle. It's all about your numbers. With a 172/3.8+ you have a very strong shot at Columbia.

I don't think you should ask TSL. These two probably have no clue.



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I disagree with “Rad Law’s” answer to your question. It is not simply all about the numbers.
Admissions committees not only look at your GPA, but they look at your major and the institution you attended. Students majoring in the hard sciences, engineering and math are often subjected to harsher grading curves than those in the humanities. The admissions committees take this into consideration and a school’s reputation for any grade inflation when considering an applicant’s candidacy. In addition, law schools often prefer liberal arts majors than pre-professional majors, believing that it lends itself to better training for law school. Taking this into account, your music major, in and of itself, will not dictate the outcome of your candidacy. Your strong LSAT scores and GPA are a great starting point. Make sure to put as much effort in the additional elements of your application, as they can provide a more complete picture of you as an applicant- and can truly make the difference between being accepted and being rejected.

(Advertising component redacted by mods)

I disagree with your unnecessarily long and advertisement riddled answer. It is all about the numbers.

yes your answer is quite disagreeable... "Rad Law". if that is your real name.

this just got lulzy.

jdMission wrote: (Advertising component redacted by mods)

Mods, consider removing the ad component in his profile as well...

While I will agree that a liberal arts major may be better than a pre-professional major, I think this is true only at the very top of top law schools. It's true that you don't see a lot of marketing or accounting majors at HYS (though some, like engineering, are welcome everywhere of course). And even then, anecdotally, I can't imagine your ugrad major having a measurable impact, in other words, the impact is so small you couldn't realistically account for it the way you could say, 60% LSAT, 30% GPA, 10% softs & LOR's, for example (ymmv depending on school).

That said, OP, if you've done the research on LSN and you see a trend, listen to that before you listen to us. Trends aren't biased, but they can be skewed by other factors. It's possible that the music majors with great stats that you refer to wrote crummy PS's and that's why they weren't accepted at the most elite law schools. There may be correlation between being a music major and underperforming your numbers in LS admissions, but it may not be caused by being a music major. Maybe the music majors who applied were unable to articulate their passion for law in a way that sounded genuine. Maybe it was transparent that they just wanted a lucrative career and didn't have a real passion for the law (music to law is a pretty weird jump and I'd think it would be a turn off to T6 if this wasn't adequately explained). Maybe they got too artsy in their PS's. Maybe they couldn't find recommenders who were able to speak to the skills that law school seeks (which are very different from musical skills obv). Who knows. But maybe that factor that's really causing them to underperform their numbers doesn't apply to you, because you have a double major that indicates there is interest in the law and this isn't just a hide-out to escape a bad economy or to make more money than you would in music (brilliant musicians are terribly undercompensated). This is all just speculation, but I'm sure with a 172/3.8, you'll have great options, even if your softs suck balls, just don't blow it in your PS/LORs. Lastly, disregard what jdmissions said.

robotclubmember wrote:

jdMission wrote: (Advertising component redacted by mods)

Mods, consider removing the ad component in his profile as well...

Going off topic for a second, while I will agree that a liberal arts major may be better than a pre-professional major, I think this is true only at the very top of top law schools. It's true that you don't see a lot of marketing or accounting majors at HYS (though some, like engineering, are welcome everywhere of course). And even then, anecdotally, I can't imagine your ugrad major having a measurable impact, in other words, the impact is so small you couldn't realistically account for it the way you could say, 60% LSAT, 30% GPA, 10% softs & LOR's, for example (ymmv depending on school).

That said, OP, if you've done the research on LSN and you see a trend, listen to that before you listen to us. Trends aren't biased, but they can be skewed by other factors. It's possible that the music majors with great stats that you refer to wrote crummy PS's and that's why they weren't accepted at the most elite law schools. There may be correlation between being a music major and underperforming your numbers in LS admissions, but it may not be caused by being a music major. Maybe the music majors who applied were unable to articulate their passion for law in a way that sounded genuine. Maybe it was transparent that they just wanted a lucrative career and didn't have a real passion for the law (music to law is a pretty weird jump and I'd think it would be a turn off to T6 if this wasn't adequately explained). Maybe they got too artsy in their PS's. Maybe they couldn't find recommenders who were able to speak to the skills that law school seeks (which are very different from musical skills obv). Who knows. But maybe that factor that's really causing them to underperform their numbers doesn't apply to you, because you have a double major that indicates there is interest in the law and this isn't just a hide-out to escape a bad economy or to make more money than you would in music (brilliant musicians are terribly undercompensated). This is all just speculation, but I'm sure with a 172/3.8, you'll have great option, just don't blow it in your PS/LORs. Lastly, disregard what jdmissions said.

You realize there's a 99% chance the OP was created by JDMission to set up the ad?

aliarrow wrote:You realize there's a 99% chance the OP was created by JDMission to set up the ad?

jdmission's website is hilarious. look at this gem:

http://jdmission.com/blog/2011/05/12/jd ... ool-grads/

the site is just dishonest. it tries to promote the false hope that you can a) get into a good school with factors other than numbers and that b) the law market is getting stable and safe. both ploys to placate potential customers, because the honest answer, "what's there to consult? it's all a numbers game and even if your numbers are good law school is still a crap shoot" isn't very good for business.

Thank you for your comments robotclubmember and aliarrow.

We would never argue that scores are unimportant to admissions committees – they are indeed quite important. Still, there are many law schools with an abundance of applicants and thus there are many applicants, who have similar scores, on the admissions “bubble.” For these applicants, the quality of their applications can make the difference. (And, it should be noted that strong scores are no guarantee! Some with very strong scores, can make a mess of the application process and potentially jeopardize their chances). Unequivocally, stats are what get candidates into the game, but qualitative factors including letters of recommendations, personal statements and leadership/professional activities all play a role in the admissions committees decisions -- otherwise, the admissions committees would not solicit the information!

We, at jdMission, are not out to give applicants “false hope” and even gave law school aspirants fair warning about the job market at the end of the aforementioned blog post – “be wary – the legal job market has seen its ups in the past, with tremendous downs not far behind.” We simply know from experience that law school admissions committees examine applicants’ complete profiles.

As a side note, the OP was not created by us. We are here to answer questions and hopefully add value to the conversation. We do not intend to be a lightning rod, but we are happy that we have already gotten a dialogue going. We are learning the etiquette of this forum and are pleased to take part.

Sunitha Ramaiah
Columbia University ‘91
Princeton University Law School ‘95
Co-Founder, Time Travel Co.

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jdMission wrote:Thank you for your comments robotclubmember and aliarrow.

We would never argue that scores are unimportant to admissions committees – they are indeed quite important. Still, there are many law schools with an abundance of applicants and thus there are many applicants, who have similar scores, on the admissions “bubble.” For these applicants, the quality of their applications can make the difference. (And, it should be noted that strong scores are no guarantee! Some with very strong scores, can make a mess of the application process and potentially jeopardize their chances). Unequivocally, stats are what get candidates into the game, but qualitative factors including letters of recommendations, personal statements and leadership/professional activities all play a role in the admissions committees decisions -- otherwise, the admissions committees would not solicit the information!

Columbia University Law School ‘95
Co-Founder, jdMission

Maybe back in '95 this crap mattered, but at the vast majority of law schools, it doesn't.

jdMission wrote:As a side note, the OP was not created by us. We are here to answer questions and hopefully add value to the conversation. We do not intend to be a lightning rod, but we are happy that we have already gotten a dialogue going. We are learning the etiquette of this forum and are pleased to take part.

Sunitha Ramaiah
Princeton University ‘91
Columbia University Law School ‘95
Co-Founder, jdMission

I'm going to send you a PM.

Your business looks scamishy.

tittsburghfeelers wrote:Your business looks scamishy.

Your username looks inappropriate. Since you're also an alt, I'm going to default to banning this one.

robotclubmember wrote:It's possible that the music majors with great stats that you refer to wrote crummy PS's and that's why they weren't accepted at the most elite law schools.

I think this is a fairly solid consideration. While most schools care mainly about the numbers, and a solid PS won't necessarily get you to outperform your numbers, a poor PS can definitely have you under-perform your numbers. Anecdotally, many of the people I've worked with on personal statements who majored in one of the arts didn't have the same experience writing as many other law school applicants and wrote a weaker PS because of it.

robotclubmember wrote:

jdMission wrote:
That said, OP, if you've done the research on LSN and you see a trend, listen to that before you listen to us. Trends aren't biased, but they can be skewed by other factors. It's possible that the music majors with great stats that you refer to wrote crummy PS's and that's why they weren't accepted at the most elite law schools. There may be correlation between being a music major and underperforming your numbers in LS admissions, but it may not be caused by being a music major. Maybe the music majors who applied were unable to articulate their passion for law in a way that sounded genuine. Maybe it was transparent that they just wanted a lucrative career and didn't have a real passion for the law (music to law is a pretty weird jump and I'd think it would be a turn off to T6 if this wasn't adequately explained). Maybe they got too artsy in their PS's. Maybe they couldn't find recommenders who were able to speak to the skills that law school seeks (which are very different from musical skills obv). Who knows. But maybe that factor that's really causing them to underperform their numbers doesn't apply to you, because you have a double major that indicates there is interest in the law and this isn't just a hide-out to escape a bad economy or to make more money than you would in music (brilliant musicians are terribly undercompensated). This is all just speculation, but I'm sure with a 172/3.8, you'll have great options, even if your softs suck balls, just don't blow it in your PS/LORs. Lastly, disregard what jdmissions said.

I was agreeing with everything you said until you started on about music majors. I'm a jazz studies major right now and I'm going to go to law school because I am genuinely fascinated by law and want to learn about it. I was a poli sci/ international relations major before I became a jazz major (I switched for a music scholarship and once I figured law schools wouldn't care so I should study this passion when I can). Once again, insightful post and I know you didn't mean anything by it but, I disagree that likely music majors will underperform in law school. BTW, advanced music theory courses are HIGHLY analytical. Much more complex than anything on the LSAT...