How do schools look at accommodated testing?

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krasivaya
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Re: accommodated testing

Postby krasivaya » Tue May 10, 2011 4:24 pm

lawloser22 wrote:As I'm sure you've noticed, the discontent over extra time for disabilities largely stems from many people abusing the system to get accommodations for disorders such as ADD that they do not truly have. Like most people who seek extra time accommodations, you are obviously not one of these people -- but a few bad apples seem to ruin it for the rest.

You may find this thread helpful, as well as a good many testimonials from people receiving accommodations (including many active TLS users):

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=117434

AFAIK, the consensus seems to be that your cycle will not be adversely affected in any way.

Hth.


Thank you! I did a search but the search function can be kind of difficult unless you type in the exact words it wants.

@Desert Fox: That is exactly what I wanted to hear, thank you! It makes sense though, there's only so much median boosting you can do when your median is a 3.9

@Patriot1208: Thanks, I started to gather that much. It's a shame that learning disabilities have gotten so stigmatized thanks to people abusing it, I know some extremely bright people who legitimately can't use Scantrons due to ADD or OCD and can't get even the simplest accommodation because of this abuse.

minnesotasam
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby minnesotasam » Tue May 10, 2011 4:44 pm

The problem though is that people aren't divided into strictly deserves more time/doesn't deserve more time. There, of course, is an entire spectrum spanning from deserves no extra time to deserves a ton with people littered at every stop, simply due to the extensive variance in human genetics. LSAC can't come up with a truly graded scale, however, and so people are going to be unfairly shuffled left or right along the spectrum to whatever levels they CAN come up with and regulate. Because of this, it's extremely important that LSAC indicate to law schools whether or not accommodations were given on a specific administration or you risk comparing two candidates separated only by the slimmest of margins on the disability scale using totally disparate measurements (testing w/ accommodations vs testing w/o accommodations), likely resulting in very different scores.

minnesotasam
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby minnesotasam » Tue May 10, 2011 4:48 pm

OP I think you hit the nail on the head when you said it would cause schools to look at your application holistically. I think that can't be a bad thing. gl in your cycle, kudos to you for doing advocacy work.

apl6783
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby apl6783 » Wed May 11, 2011 10:27 am

krasivaya wrote:
glitter178 wrote:
interesting. you have no problem making a snap judgment about me, regardless of your line of work.
i'm not against real-world accommodations for those who need them. give me a break. we're not talking about eliminating the budget for wheel chair ramps and special education classes from public schools. we're talking about a test for professional school, which is designed, as so many other things in life, as a gatekeeper (a diminishing one, at that).
You're not even talking about accomodated testing that will allow you to get into any law school-- a la Thomas Jefferson. you're talking about HYS, which nearly EVERYONE is kept out of by virtue of some genetic or other shortcoming.


Academic and exam accommodations are some of the most important accommodations provided by ADA. Without them, many people with disabilities would be effectively excluded from higher education.

And I'm asking about HYS because I've always been shooting for HYS. I can tell you though, that without accommodations, I wouldn't finish and would probably get like a 135 which would certainly keep me out of just about everywhere. If I'm intellectually capable of T14, there's no way in hell I'm going to Cooley because I'm not physically capable of rapidly filling in bubbles.


I want to go to Harvard too. I can tell you though, that without accomodations, I wouldn't have time to both finish the test AND get enough questions right to score high enough to get in. If I'm physically capable of filling out the bubbles fast enough though, I'm not going to settle for Cooley just because I'm not smart enough to answer all the questions correctly in the allotted time.

So, I should be accomodated with both aderall and extra time. Oh, and don't try to say that my disability isn't real because it is. I was born dumb as a rock. I can still be a lawyer though, I'll just have to put more hours in than other lawyers because it takes me longer to think about things. Firms will like that, though, because I'll bill twice the hours!

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BrightLine
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby BrightLine » Wed May 11, 2011 10:42 am

My issue is not with the concept of accommodated testing only with the practice. The LSAT is inextricably related to time. Yo are not given points for getting the right answers but for getting the right answers in a specific amount of time. Now, one may have a disability that does not allow them to answer the the questions in the allotted time. I do agree that something should be done to accommodate these people but i really don't know what it should be.

Making a test untimed or giving a it with extended time cannot possibly have the effect of truly leveling the playing field. Either the accommodation is not enough or it is too generous. It would seem to be nearly impossible to calibrate an accommodation so as to perfectly counter the effects of the disability and create a "fair" test. The result is that the tester is either not properly accommodated or the accommodation is such that the test is not testing what it is supposed to.

09042014
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby 09042014 » Wed May 11, 2011 11:13 am

apl6783 wrote:
krasivaya wrote:
glitter178 wrote:
interesting. you have no problem making a snap judgment about me, regardless of your line of work.
i'm not against real-world accommodations for those who need them. give me a break. we're not talking about eliminating the budget for wheel chair ramps and special education classes from public schools. we're talking about a test for professional school, which is designed, as so many other things in life, as a gatekeeper (a diminishing one, at that).
You're not even talking about accomodated testing that will allow you to get into any law school-- a la Thomas Jefferson. you're talking about HYS, which nearly EVERYONE is kept out of by virtue of some genetic or other shortcoming.


Academic and exam accommodations are some of the most important accommodations provided by ADA. Without them, many people with disabilities would be effectively excluded from higher education.

And I'm asking about HYS because I've always been shooting for HYS. I can tell you though, that without accommodations, I wouldn't finish and would probably get like a 135 which would certainly keep me out of just about everywhere. If I'm intellectually capable of T14, there's no way in hell I'm going to Cooley because I'm not physically capable of rapidly filling in bubbles.


I want to go to Harvard too. I can tell you though, that without accomodations, I wouldn't have time to both finish the test AND get enough questions right to score high enough to get in. If I'm physically capable of filling out the bubbles fast enough though, I'm not going to settle for Cooley just because I'm not smart enough to answer all the questions correctly in the allotted time.

So, I should be accomodated with both aderall and extra time. Oh, and don't try to say that my disability isn't real because it is. I was born dumb as a rock. I can still be a lawyer though, I'll just have to put more hours in than other lawyers because it takes me longer to think about things. Firms will like that, though, because I'll bill twice the hours!


^ is an example of a gray area. How smart a person is almost entirely genetic, or the result of how they developed early in life. Getting extra time because you are dumb as rocks makes no sense because everyone who scores under 150 is dumb as rocks. Hell the entire point of the LSAT is to separate people on their natural ability. And the whole point of accommodations is to avoid punishing people for disabilities that don't harm their intelligence, but harm their ability to perform with the speed necessary.

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krasivaya
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby krasivaya » Wed May 11, 2011 11:36 am

apl6783 wrote:
I want to go to Harvard too. I can tell you though, that without accomodations, I wouldn't have time to both finish the test AND get enough questions right to score high enough to get in. If I'm physically capable of filling out the bubbles fast enough though, I'm not going to settle for Cooley just because I'm not smart enough to answer all the questions correctly in the allotted time.

So, I should be accomodated with both aderall and extra time. Oh, and don't try to say that my disability isn't real because it is. I was born dumb as a rock. I can still be a lawyer though, I'll just have to put more hours in than other lawyers because it takes me longer to think about things. Firms will like that, though, because I'll bill twice the hours!


Disability does not indicate a lack of intelligence.

At least you got the bolded part right.

Oh, and it's accommodation. You think it wouldn't be that hard since it's in the title and TLS has a built in spell check feature.

apl6783
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby apl6783 » Wed May 11, 2011 11:36 am

@Krasivaya:

I told you I was dumb as a rock. Why do you have to go making fun of my spelling mistakes? My disability happens to be a lack of intelligence. Who are you to say that's not a disability?

@Desert Fox:

Why does her physical disability deserve more respect (by way of akomodayshun) than my mental one? My being stupid places me at a disadvantage relative to people who can naturally score 175+ on the LSAT just as her physical disability does.

My point is, you can't pick and choose who to give a handicap advantage to, who you level the playing field for. Everyone gets a scaled handicap in golf, not just the people who suck the most.

The LSAT and law school are competitive. Giving one person an advantage necesarilly effects someon else negatively. For example, I can gaurantee you that if no one who sat for the LSAT on the same day I did took aderall (prescribed or otherwise) my score would have been considerably higher.

*To clarify, I'm talking about bogus disabilities like ADD.
Last edited by apl6783 on Wed May 11, 2011 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Kallpayoq
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby Kallpayoq » Wed May 11, 2011 11:45 am

Desert Fox wrote:
apl6783 wrote:
krasivaya wrote:
glitter178 wrote:
interesting. you have no problem making a snap judgment about me, regardless of your line of work.
i'm not against real-world accommodations for those who need them. give me a break. we're not talking about eliminating the budget for wheel chair ramps and special education classes from public schools. we're talking about a test for professional school, which is designed, as so many other things in life, as a gatekeeper (a diminishing one, at that).
You're not even talking about accomodated testing that will allow you to get into any law school-- a la Thomas Jefferson. you're talking about HYS, which nearly EVERYONE is kept out of by virtue of some genetic or other shortcoming.


Academic and exam accommodations are some of the most important accommodations provided by ADA. Without them, many people with disabilities would be effectively excluded from higher education.

And I'm asking about HYS because I've always been shooting for HYS. I can tell you though, that without accommodations, I wouldn't finish and would probably get like a 135 which would certainly keep me out of just about everywhere. If I'm intellectually capable of T14, there's no way in hell I'm going to Cooley because I'm not physically capable of rapidly filling in bubbles.


I want to go to Harvard too. I can tell you though, that without accomodations, I wouldn't have time to both finish the test AND get enough questions right to score high enough to get in. If I'm physically capable of filling out the bubbles fast enough though, I'm not going to settle for Cooley just because I'm not smart enough to answer all the questions correctly in the allotted time.

So, I should be accomodated with both aderall and extra time. Oh, and don't try to say that my disability isn't real because it is. I was born dumb as a rock. I can still be a lawyer though, I'll just have to put more hours in than other lawyers because it takes me longer to think about things. Firms will like that, though, because I'll bill twice the hours!


^ is an example of a gray area. How smart a person is almost entirely genetic, or the result of how they developed early in life. Getting extra time because you are dumb as rocks makes no sense because everyone who scores under 150 is dumb as rocks. Hell the entire point of the LSAT is to separate people on their natural ability. And the whole point of accommodations is to avoid punishing people for disabilities that don't harm their intelligence, but harm their ability to perform with the speed necessary.


Agreed.

One thing that I think many people don't realize is how the extra time is actually utilized. My son has cerebral palsy, which makes holding a pencil and filling in something small like a bubble on a scantron extremely difficult and even painful. However, he has perfectly normal intelligence and can type faster than most people I know, so it's not as though he would be incapable of working as an attorney (or any other professional position) since, as far as I know, business people generally aren't required to draw tiny images with pencils. :)

When he has extra time on a test, which has been EXTREMELY difficult for him to attain, it's used to fill in the bubbles, not to figure out the answers to the questions. While you and I can write without even thinking about it, he has to really concentrate and think about which muscles to move in order to grip the pencil and then how to move that pencil carefully enough as to not go outside the lines of those tiny bubbles. That's how the extra time is used, to fill in the bubbles not to think longer about each question.

How anybody can justify denying him the time necessary to fill in that dang scantron is beyond me.

apl6783
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby apl6783 » Wed May 11, 2011 11:48 am

No one could or would deny your son extra time. He has a true disability.

Most peoples' gripe is with "disabilities" like ADD.

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Kallpayoq
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby Kallpayoq » Wed May 11, 2011 11:54 am

apl6783 wrote:No one could or would deny your son extra time. He has a true disability.

Most peoples' gripe is with "disabilities" like ADD.


Unfortunately, he has been denied accommodations before, most recently on the SAT. :(
Last edited by Kallpayoq on Wed May 11, 2011 12:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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krasivaya
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby krasivaya » Wed May 11, 2011 11:54 am

Kallpayoq wrote:
Agreed.

One thing that I think many people don't realize is how the extra time is actually utilized. My son has cerebral palsy, which makes holding a pencil and filling in something small like a bubble on a scantron extremely difficult and even painful. However, he has perfectly normal intelligence and can type faster than most people I know, so it's not as though he would be incapable of working as an attorney (or any other professional position) since, as far as I know, business people generally aren't required to draw tiny images with pencils. :)

When he has extra time on a test, which has been EXTREMELY difficult for him to attain, it's used to fill in the bubbles, not to figure out the answers to the questions. While you and I can write without even thinking about it, he has to really concentrate and think about which muscles to move in order to grip the pencil and then how to move that pencil carefully enough as to not go outside the lines of those tiny bubbles. That's how the extra time is used, to fill in the bubbles not to think longer about each question.

How anybody can justify denying him the time necessary to fill in that dang scantron is beyond me.


This is excellent and spot on. You sound like an amazing parent.

@apl6783: If your IQ is 70 or below, feel free to claim intellectual disability. Otherwise, please stop trolling. It's incredibly offensive to people actually living with mental retardation.

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krasivaya
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby krasivaya » Wed May 11, 2011 11:55 am

Kallpayoq wrote:
apl6783 wrote:No one could or would deny your son extra time. He has a true disability.

Most peoples' gripe is with "disabilities" like ADD.


Unfortunately, he has been denied accommodations before, most recently on the SAT. :(


I heard the SAT is incredibly hard to get accommodations for like the LSAT, they seriously tried to deny giving a girl I work with who is visually impaired a large-text test.

She ultimately got it with persistence and with contacting state advocacy groups. Good luck :|

apl6783
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby apl6783 » Wed May 11, 2011 11:57 am

Kallpayoq wrote:
apl6783 wrote:No one could or would deny your son extra time. He has a true disability.

Most peoples' gripe is with "disabilities" like ADD.


Unfortunately, he has been denied accommodations before. :(


The day someone denied him extra time was a sad day for humanity.

apl6783
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby apl6783 » Wed May 11, 2011 12:05 pm

krasivaya wrote:
Kallpayoq wrote:
Agreed.

One thing that I think many people don't realize is how the extra time is actually utilized. My son has cerebral palsy, which makes holding a pencil and filling in something small like a bubble on a scantron extremely difficult and even painful. However, he has perfectly normal intelligence and can type faster than most people I know, so it's not as though he would be incapable of working as an attorney (or any other professional position) since, as far as I know, business people generally aren't required to draw tiny images with pencils. :)

When he has extra time on a test, which has been EXTREMELY difficult for him to attain, it's used to fill in the bubbles, not to figure out the answers to the questions. While you and I can write without even thinking about it, he has to really concentrate and think about which muscles to move in order to grip the pencil and then how to move that pencil carefully enough as to not go outside the lines of those tiny bubbles. That's how the extra time is used, to fill in the bubbles not to think longer about each question.

How anybody can justify denying him the time necessary to fill in that dang scantron is beyond me.


This is excellent and spot on. You sound like an amazing parent.

@apl6783: If your IQ is 70 or below, feel free to claim intellectual disability. Otherwise, please stop trolling. It's incredibly offensive to people actually living with mental retardation.


No. I'm tired of this attitude that people with "learning disabilities" have that they're special and that they deserve this or they deserve that and that I don't understand. Garbage.

Taking the LSAT unmedicated is like running a race where the rest of the field is on steroids. I'm tired of competing with people who have "learning disabilities." No one likes to study. I have a hard time focusing too. Humans were not built to sit in a room and study all day.

The people I know with "ADD" all did better than my non-disabled friends on the LSAT.

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Kallpayoq
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby Kallpayoq » Wed May 11, 2011 12:12 pm

apl6783 wrote:
Kallpayoq wrote:
Unfortunately, he has been denied accommodations before. :(


The day someone denied him extra time was a sad day for humanity.


I agree; however, the silver lining to fighting with school districts (and other entities) for the past 2 decades to get my son the services he needs and the education he deserves has taught him how to advocate for himself. And it's what prompted me to return to college in my 30s to get a degree and go to law school. So, at least some good things have come out of it.

apl6783
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby apl6783 » Wed May 11, 2011 12:16 pm

Kallpayoq wrote:
apl6783 wrote:
Kallpayoq wrote:
Unfortunately, he has been denied accommodations before. :(


The day someone denied him extra time was a sad day for humanity.


I agree; however, the silver lining to fighting with school districts (and other entities) for the past 2 decades to get my son the services he needs and the education he deserves has taught him how to advocate for himself. And it's what prompted me to return to college in my 30s to get a degree and go to law school. So, at least some good things have come out of it.


You should sue the SAT's for discrimination. You'd probably win, literally no one likes those guys.

emfall
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby emfall » Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:23 pm

ADD is real. you should be able to get accomodations. There needs to be more education about mental illness and mental disabilities. Extra time doesn't mean the person will get a higher score or are getting special treatment just that they have a chance to complete the test without hearing all the background noise in another room and seeing people finish ahead of them. Anyone can become mentally ill at any time.

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Patriot1208
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby Patriot1208 » Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:26 pm

emfall wrote:ADD is real. you should be able to get accomodations. There needs to be more education about mental illness and mental disabilities. Extra time doesn't mean the person will get a higher score or are getting special treatment just that they have a chance to complete the test without hearing all the background noise in another room and seeing people finish ahead of them. Anyone can become mentally ill at any time.

No one said ADD was fictitious, simply that tons of people who claim to have it don't. And because it's become so easier to get diagnosed and that every parent with a slow kid automatically assumes their kid has ADD, those that really do have it bad suffer.

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mountaintime
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby mountaintime » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:42 am

never tell any of your classmates. you will be shunned.




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