How do schools look at accommodated testing?

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krasivaya
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How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby krasivaya » Tue May 10, 2011 3:10 pm

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Last edited by krasivaya on Mon May 16, 2011 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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glitter178
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby glitter178 » Tue May 10, 2011 3:14 pm

you're seriously upset that you have to disclose that you get extra time on the LSAT because of how it will look to HYS or other schools?

very little from here on out is going to be "fair" as in everyone who participates wins. law school is based on your performance on little more than a few timed exams; i can't imagine why it shouldn't be relevant to the schools that you require more time than the average test taker. Graduate school is largely dependent on papers with looser time limits; its entrance exam standard is irrelevant

bmore
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby bmore » Tue May 10, 2011 3:21 pm

Get the 180 first, then worry.

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krasivaya
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby krasivaya » Tue May 10, 2011 3:22 pm

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Last edited by krasivaya on Mon May 16, 2011 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bhangra23
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby bhangra23 » Tue May 10, 2011 3:24 pm

Personally I think extra time is cheating. The LSAT is a challenge because of the time crunch, many on here could add serious pts to their scores with more time. They r going to look at it that way too, u should just take it like everyone else, a few pts lower won't hurt you as much as needing more time

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AreJay711
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby AreJay711 » Tue May 10, 2011 3:25 pm

I mean it sucks but I bet that for LSATs with extra time allowed the correlation between LSAT and 1L GPA falls apart so they don't count it for as much. At the same time is there any reason you feel your undergrad gpa is less representative of your ability than the LSAT? I think that is a fair compromise.

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krasivaya
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby krasivaya » Tue May 10, 2011 3:27 pm

bhangra23 wrote:Personally I think extra time is cheating. The LSAT is a challenge because of the time crunch, many on here could add serious pts to their scores with more time. They r going to look at it that way too, u should just take it like everyone else, a few pts lower won't hurt you as much as needing more time


I'm just going to lol and disregard you.

So a blind student should suck it up and forgo a braille packet? A student with limited mobility should just not finish their exams, not because they don't understand the material but because their hands don't move as fast as yours?

Many on here could add serious points to their scores with more time because they don't need more time.

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krasivaya
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby krasivaya » Tue May 10, 2011 3:30 pm

AreJay711 wrote:I mean it sucks but I bet that for LSATs with extra time allowed the correlation between LSAT and 1L GPA falls apart so they don't count it for as much. At the same time is there any reason you feel your undergrad gpa is less representative of your ability than the LSAT? I think that is a fair compromise.


True, I can see this logic.

It would be so excellent if LSAC didn't take my random for-credit classes in high school into account, I'd have a 4.0 :3

LSATfromNC
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby LSATfromNC » Tue May 10, 2011 3:32 pm

krasivaya wrote:
bhangra23 wrote:Personally I think extra time is cheating. The LSAT is a challenge because of the time crunch, many on here could add serious pts to their scores with more time. They r going to look at it that way too, u should just take it like everyone else, a few pts lower won't hurt you as much as needing more time


I'm just going to lol and disregard you.

So a blind student should suck it up and forgo a braille packet? A student with limited mobility should just not finish their exams, not because they don't understand the material but because their hands don't move as fast as yours?

Many on here could add serious points to their scores with more time because they don't need more time.


How would this impact billing? If it takes someone an hour to do something that normally takes 5 minutes, would you still bill the whole hour? Just interested, not trying to pick a fight.

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AreJay711
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby AreJay711 » Tue May 10, 2011 3:32 pm

krasivaya wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:I mean it sucks but I bet that for LSATs with extra time allowed the correlation between LSAT and 1L GPA falls apart so they don't count it for as much. At the same time is there any reason you feel your undergrad gpa is less representative of your ability than the LSAT? I think that is a fair compromise.


True, I can see this logic.

It would be so excellent if LSAC didn't take my random for-credit classes in high school into account, I'd have a 4.0 :3


Sometimes I think being an idiot in H.S. paid off lol

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kwais
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby kwais » Tue May 10, 2011 3:34 pm

I really don't think everyone is attacking you or your advocacy. These are some serious questions to bring up. Indeed, much of what the LSAT is testing is speed. Do those with disabilities get extra time on law school exams or longer deadlines from future employers (serious question).

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Kabuo
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby Kabuo » Tue May 10, 2011 3:34 pm

krasivaya wrote:
bhangra23 wrote:Personally I think extra time is cheating. The LSAT is a challenge because of the time crunch, many on here could add serious pts to their scores with more time. They r going to look at it that way too, u should just take it like everyone else, a few pts lower won't hurt you as much as needing more time


I'm just going to lol and disregard you.

So a blind student should suck it up and forgo a braille packet? A student with limited mobility should just not finish their exams, not because they don't understand the material but because their hands don't move as fast as yours?

Many on here could add serious points to their scores with more time because they don't need more time.


Almost didn't want to talk about this because you gave a fun rebuttal, but what I think he's trying to say is that after you've studied enough, literally the only thing preventing a lot of 167+ scorers from getting 180s is the amount of time they spend getting to the right answer. If you were blind or couldn't transfer answers to the paper as quickly because of some physical disability, then your rebuttal would be fun and spot on. But if it's ADD or something, and you just get more time to think about it because it takes you more time to think about things, people don't buy it for a variety of reasons, fair or unfair.

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krasivaya
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby krasivaya » Tue May 10, 2011 3:36 pm

@AreJay711: I knoow. If I knew all that overachieving was going to bite me, I would've had a much better go of high school.

@LSATfromNC: That's a good question, I don't know how firms would approach that. My assumption is no, though. They would probably bill the amount of time it takes another lawyer and those with disabilities would just have to put in longer hours (something we're used to anyway). My 5 minutes to an hour was slight exaggeration though ;)

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kwais
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby kwais » Tue May 10, 2011 3:37 pm

krasivaya wrote:@AreJay711: I knoow. If I knew all that overachieving was going to bite me, I would've had a much better go of high school.

@LSATfromNC: That's a good question, I don't know how firms would approach that. My assumption is no, though. They would probably bill the amount of time it takes another lawyer and those with disabilities would just have to put in longer hours (something we're used to anyway). My 5 minutes to an hour was slight exaggeration though ;)


If this is how they would do billing, this seems fair

LSATfromNC
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby LSATfromNC » Tue May 10, 2011 3:40 pm

krasivaya wrote:@AreJay711: I knoow. If I knew all that overachieving was going to bite me, I would've had a much better go of high school.

@LSATfromNC: That's a good question, I don't know how firms would approach that. My assumption is no, though. They would probably bill the amount of time it takes another lawyer and those with disabilities would just have to put in longer hours (something we're used to anyway). My 5 minutes to an hour was slight exaggeration though ;)


I remember a article about a lawyer who was paralyzed from the neck down, even prior to law school. Throughout his career, and the LSAT, he had someone basically transcribing his words into writing. They didn't add anything to the paper that he did not say, or help analyze, they just put down verbatim what he told them to. I think the article had something to do with getting extra time on the LSAT, but this was years ago I read this, so my memory might be off regarding some of the details. I always wondered how he billed out his time, thanks :)

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Jack Smirks
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby Jack Smirks » Tue May 10, 2011 3:42 pm

There was a deaf guy at my testing center who couldn't hear the proctor call time and just kept filling in bubbles 1-2 minutes after the section was over. The proctor was forced to go tell him time had expired after every section. His replies were very loud and disturbing to the other test takers and personally I think he was faking the whole thing just to get extra time. Was this fair or unfair?

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krasivaya
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby krasivaya » Tue May 10, 2011 3:43 pm

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Last edited by krasivaya on Mon May 16, 2011 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bk1
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby bk1 » Tue May 10, 2011 3:43 pm

krasivaya wrote:My GPA is right at median for HYS, but I just recently learned that accommodated tests don't count toward medians. I was hoping to do really well on the LSAT to make my application more attractive, but now it seems that even if I get a 180 it won't help much since the only thing schools can use from me is my GPA which is average by their standards.


If there are any schools that are going to not care as much about how you affect their medians, it would be HYS.

krasivaya wrote:So, basically, does needing accommodations make me significantly less competitive? Or does it allow schools to approach my application more holistically, which could be a benefit?


I don't think anybody on TLS can answer this unless they've been in the situation. And since it is rare, and a bit stigmatized, you may not get an answer at all.

What I would point out is that it doesn't matter. You are going to apply to HYS (and other schools) anyways and it's not like you're going to alter your application based on this information. Knowing the answer to your questions doesn't gain you anything because you aren't going to act on it anwyays so just be okay with not knowing until you actually get acceptances/rejections from schools.

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glitter178
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby glitter178 » Tue May 10, 2011 3:47 pm

krasivaya wrote:
glitter178 wrote:you're seriously upset that you have to disclose that you get extra time on the LSAT because of how it will look to HYS or other schools?

very little from here on out is going to be "fair" as in everyone who participates wins. law school is based on your performance on little more than a few timed exams; i can't imagine why it shouldn't be relevant to the schools that you require more time than the average test taker. Graduate school is largely dependent on papers with looser time limits; its entrance exam standard is irrelevant


People like you are the reason I do the work that I do.

My discomfort with LSAC's policy comes from my position as an advocate who's worked extensively with ADA legislation.

Since disability doesn't qualify as URM status and since having a disability can usually indicate a need for accommodations, there is often a lot of risk associated with disclosing. I advise most students not to disclose in job interviews and wait until after they are hired to request accommodations according to ADA. That way, these people can get accepted based on their merits not rejected based on their circumstances.

I feel like it should be the same for law school. Students with excellent GPA's and softs have proven their abilities, they should have the right to be accepted on merit and to disclose on their own terms. If these students have already put in countless extra hours doing work that able-bodied people could do in minutes to this point in their academic careers, there's no grounds for saying they won't do the same in law school and as a lawyer.


interesting. you have no problem making a snap judgment about me, regardless of your line of work.
i'm not against real-world accommodations for those who need them. give me a break. we're not talking about eliminating the budget for wheel chair ramps and special education classes from public schools. we're talking about a test for professional school, which is designed, as so many other things in life, as a gatekeeper (a diminishing one, at that).
You're not even talking about accomodated testing that will allow you to get into any law school-- a la Thomas Jefferson. you're talking about HYS, which nearly EVERYONE is kept out of by virtue of some genetic or other shortcoming.

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krasivaya
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby krasivaya » Tue May 10, 2011 3:47 pm

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Last edited by krasivaya on Mon May 16, 2011 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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krasivaya
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby krasivaya » Tue May 10, 2011 3:50 pm

glitter178 wrote:
interesting. you have no problem making a snap judgment about me, regardless of your line of work.
i'm not against real-world accommodations for those who need them. give me a break. we're not talking about eliminating the budget for wheel chair ramps and special education classes from public schools. we're talking about a test for professional school, which is designed, as so many other things in life, as a gatekeeper (a diminishing one, at that).
You're not even talking about accomodated testing that will allow you to get into any law school-- a la Thomas Jefferson. you're talking about HYS, which nearly EVERYONE is kept out of by virtue of some genetic or other shortcoming.


Academic and exam accommodations are some of the most important accommodations provided by ADA. Without them, many people with disabilities would be effectively excluded from higher education.

And I'm asking about HYS because I've always been shooting for HYS. I can tell you though, that without accommodations, I wouldn't finish and would probably get like a 135 which would certainly keep me out of just about everywhere. If I'm intellectually capable of T14, there's no way in hell I'm going to Cooley because I'm not physically capable of rapidly filling in bubbles.

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Patriot1208
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby Patriot1208 » Tue May 10, 2011 3:53 pm

A lot of the responses here are because people don't know what your disability is. I think a lot of people (myself included) originally thought ADD or ADHD because we all know kids in college who use these things to get extra time when there isn't anything really wrong with them. But it seems like you probably have a legitimate disability especially considering that LSAC is known to be stingy/strict with kids on ADD or ADHD time constraints. So, good luck to you.

bhangra23
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby bhangra23 » Tue May 10, 2011 3:59 pm

I wasn't talkin about blind/deaf test takers. I was talking about ADD test takers who "need" extra time because they're speeding their balls off. I know a guy who easily got ADD accomodations and merely paid $1,000 for the "ADD test", which isn't as much as prep classes or the $$$ you save for having a better score. As far as a real disability goes, I think extra time is warranted, but I think everyone has some "type" of ADD they can claim. When the teacher is talking to you tend to look at the hot girl in front of you? ADD. When reading do you sometimes have to reread something? ADD. I mean come on, its ridiculous.

Again, not talking about blind/deaf or other real disabilities

09042014
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Re: How do schools look at accommodated testing?

Postby 09042014 » Tue May 10, 2011 3:59 pm

If you have a median GPA for HYS, you shouldn't even worry. First of all HYS aren't rank bitches like the other schools. They actually do care about student quality (HLS less so). And since you already hit their median GPA, you have nothing to worry about.

It's the people whose GPA is low who get screwed. Because their GPA is harmful and the LSAT can't help them as much.

I doubt your cycle will go any different than if you hadn't had the testing modifications.

lawloser22
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Re: accommodated testing

Postby lawloser22 » Tue May 10, 2011 4:18 pm

As I'm sure you've noticed, the discontent over extra time for disabilities largely stems from many people abusing the system to get accommodations for disorders such as ADD that they do not truly have. Like most people who seek extra time accommodations, you are obviously not one of these people -- but a few bad apples seem to ruin it for the rest.

You may find this thread helpful, as well as a good many testimonials from people receiving accommodations (including many active TLS users):

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=117434

AFAIK, the consensus seems to be that your cycle will not be adversely affected in any way.

Hth.




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