If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

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Grizz
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby Grizz » Sun May 08, 2011 1:31 am

Only a 33 on the ACT?

PUSSY.

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AreJay711
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby AreJay711 » Sun May 08, 2011 1:36 am

Anything can make you a lot of money. I know a janitor making damn near 7 figures after he started his own company.

shoeshine
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby shoeshine » Sun May 08, 2011 1:40 am

AreJay711 wrote:Anything can make you a lot of money. I know a janitor making damn near 7 figures after he started his own company.

So he isn't a janitor then. He is a business owner, entrepreneur, or ceo.

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ResolutePear
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby ResolutePear » Sun May 08, 2011 1:52 am

shoeshine wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:Anything can make you a lot of money. I know a janitor making damn near 7 figures after he started his own company.

So he isn't a janitor then. He is a business owner, entrepreneur, or ceo.


Those are his positions.

His profession would still be that of a 'janitor'

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Ty Webb
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby Ty Webb » Sun May 08, 2011 1:57 am

ResolutePear wrote:
Ty Webb wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:The averages of successful lawyers to successful doctors.


I tend to think you are very, very wrong about this, even with the inclusion of the unworkably subjective "successful" distinction.


Go research.

Studentdoctor.com is a decent place to start. There are articles on this as well.

There are restrictions on what a doctor can charge vs. what a lawyer can charge.


My future father in law is a doctor. I know how much money he earns each year and it's more than all but the tippy top of the lawyering profession. And he's not even a high-end surgeon, nor does he live in a place where cost of living necessitates high-cost healthcare. Sure, there no legal limits on what a lawyer can charge, but there are practical limits on what he can charge.

Though you don't seem to have gathered it even after multiple posts, the point I'm trying to impart to you is that your points are overly broad. Saying that becoming a doctor is not a "get rich" profession and claiming that "successful" lawyers make more than "successful" doctors are arguments that leave a lot of room for you to be wrong. This is mostly because you're importing your own subjective judgments of "successful" and "rich" (and not even reasonable judgments in the case of "rich") into a discussion, acting as if those subjective judgments are factual. They're not. Most people would say that having $5mm in net worth at age 50 is rich and this is easily attainable for a financially savvy physician.

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ResolutePear
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby ResolutePear » Sun May 08, 2011 2:13 am

Ty Webb wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
Ty Webb wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:The averages of successful lawyers to successful doctors.


I tend to think you are very, very wrong about this, even with the inclusion of the unworkably subjective "successful" distinction.


Go research.

Studentdoctor.com is a decent place to start. There are articles on this as well.

There are restrictions on what a doctor can charge vs. what a lawyer can charge.


My future father in law is a doctor. I know how much money he earns each year and it's more than all but the tippy top of the lawyering profession. And he's not even a high-end surgeon, nor does he live in a place where cost of living necessitates high-cost healthcare. Sure, there no legal limits on what a lawyer can charge, but there are practical limits on what he can charge.

Though you don't seem to have gathered it even after multiple posts, the point I'm trying to impart to you is that your points are overly broad. Saying that becoming a doctor is not a "get rich" profession and claiming that "successful" lawyers make more than "successful" doctors are arguments that leave a lot of room for you to be wrong. This is mostly because you're importing your own subjective judgments of "successful" and "rich" (and not even reasonable judgments in the case of "rich") into a discussion, acting as if those subjective judgments are factual. They're not. Most people would say that having $5mm in net worth at age 50 is rich and this is easily attainable for a financially savvy physician.


You're basing your entire opinion of doctors on your "future father in law." I'd rather remain broad than introduce bias into this conversation.

Regardless, this has been spoken about in depth on this forum so I won't go into it here.

shoeshine
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby shoeshine » Sun May 08, 2011 2:53 am

ResolutePear wrote:
shoeshine wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:Anything can make you a lot of money. I know a janitor making damn near 7 figures after he started his own company.

So he isn't a janitor then. He is a business owner, entrepreneur, or ceo.


Those are his positions.

His profession would still be that of a 'janitor'


His profession would only be that of a janitor if he kept being a janitor after he started a company that made him 7 figures. I am guessing that running a company probably doesn't leave you much time to mop floors and plunge toilets.

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glitched
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby glitched » Sun May 08, 2011 3:10 am

just out of curiosity, if you could go to harvard law or harvard medicine, which would you choose?

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ResolutePear
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby ResolutePear » Sun May 08, 2011 3:13 am

shoeshine wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
shoeshine wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:Anything can make you a lot of money. I know a janitor making damn near 7 figures after he started his own company.

So he isn't a janitor then. He is a business owner, entrepreneur, or ceo.


Those are his positions.

His profession would still be that of a 'janitor'


His profession would only be that of a janitor if he kept being a janitor after he started a company that made him 7 figures. I am guessing that running a company probably doesn't leave you much time to mop floors and plunge toilets.


So, what is his profession then?

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Lawquacious
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby Lawquacious » Sun May 08, 2011 3:49 am

glitched wrote:just out of curiosity, if you could go to harvard law or harvard medicine, which would you choose?


I'd personally choose law, just because I think I would absolutely hate the lab-based science courses involved in medical school. Would much rather pontificate hypotheticals all other things aside.... but then again, LWLR almost pushed me over the edge.. :lol:

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DoubleChecks
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby DoubleChecks » Sun May 08, 2011 10:42 am

ResolutePear wrote:
shoeshine wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:Anything can make you a lot of money. I know a janitor making damn near 7 figures after he started his own company.

So he isn't a janitor then. He is a business owner, entrepreneur, or ceo.


Those are his positions.

His profession would still be that of a 'janitor'


ok, even if so, for the purposes of the earlier conversation, he'd be treated as a business entrepreneur/CEO, etc.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby DoubleChecks » Sun May 08, 2011 10:43 am

glitched wrote:just out of curiosity, if you could go to harvard law or harvard medicine, which would you choose?


um, Harvard Dental of course :lol:

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ahduth
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby ahduth » Sun May 08, 2011 7:24 pm

If the law is failing, your best alternative is to arm yourself, and stock up on canned goods.

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cinephile
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby cinephile » Sun May 08, 2011 7:30 pm

ahduth wrote:If the law is failing, your best alternative is to arm yourself, and stock up on canned goods.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

bmore
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby bmore » Sun May 08, 2011 8:11 pm

You want a bunch of strangers to tell you what to be when you grow up?

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minnbills
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby minnbills » Sun May 08, 2011 9:22 pm

I think at the end of the day it comes down to managing expectations.

If you want to be wealthy, you need to start a business that takes off or achieve a high management position in finance or one of the highest positions in the corporate power structure, among other things.

Law is not, and never has been, a path to riches.

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Lawquacious
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby Lawquacious » Sun May 08, 2011 9:42 pm

minnbills wrote:Law is not, and never has been, a path to riches.


That's not necessarily true. Business is usually the field to focus on (in terms of advanced degree) if interested in trying to become very wealthy, but I think there are plenty of lawyers who have become successful 'principals' in the corporate world after years of transactional work. In fact, I've met two lawyers recently who fit this description (who only have a JD as the terminal degree). I believe one of them is a multi-multi-multi-millionare. Obviously it's not a safe bet, but I'm sure plenty of people have gone into law with the hope of making tons of money, and for some it has paid off (think also about lawyers who bring major corporate class-actions on contingent fee agreements). It is not the right reason to go into law IMO, and law often won't lead to riches, but to say it never does is an overstatement. But I will grant that when a lawyer does get very wealthy it is generally through a business-type application of the degree and post-lawschool experience, rather than through the practice of law per se.

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PKSebben
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby PKSebben » Sun May 08, 2011 10:20 pm

Lawquacious wrote:
minnbills wrote:Law is not, and never has been, a path to riches.


That's not necessarily true. Business is usually the field to focus on (in terms of advanced degree) if interested in trying to become very wealthy, but I think there are plenty of lawyers who have become successful 'principals' in the corporate world after years of transactional work. In fact, I've met two lawyers recently who fit this description (who only have a JD as the terminal degree). I believe one of them is a multi-multi-multi-millionare. Obviously it's not a safe bet, but I'm sure plenty of people have gone into law with the hope of making tons of money, and for some it has paid off (think also about lawyers who bring major corporate class-actions on contingent fee agreements). It is not the right reason to go into law IMO, and law often won't lead to riches, but to say it never does is an overstatement. But I will grant that when a lawyer does get very wealthy it is generally through a business-type application of the degree and post-lawschool experience, rather than through the practice of law per se.


I agree with this. Although minnbills was talking in generalities. So you're talking past either other a bit. Law isn't a sure bet for $$$ anymore, but there are some who can make bank transitioning from law to business. I've seen this happen, especially in the transaction to principal side. I suspect the law degree didn't have much to do with it -- these dudes would have run up the MBA -> finance/consulting ladder in much the same way, I suspect.

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AlabamaIceman
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby AlabamaIceman » Sun May 08, 2011 10:46 pm

PKSebben wrote:I agree with this. Although minnbills was talking in generalities. So you're talking past either other a bit. Law isn't a sure bet for $$$ anymore, but there are some who can make bank transitioning from law to business. I've seen this happen, especially in the transaction to principal side. I suspect the law degree didn't have much to do with it -- these dudes would have run up the MBA -> finance/consulting ladder in much the same way, I suspect.


So what practical hope is there for me then if I am not a business major and don't seem to have the "rain man" sort of mind needed to break the bank on Wall Street? (Obvious overstatement there, but truly I really don't know the first thing about economics or high-level banking/consulting.)

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Patriot1208
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby Patriot1208 » Sun May 08, 2011 10:52 pm

AlabamaIceman wrote:
PKSebben wrote:I agree with this. Although minnbills was talking in generalities. So you're talking past either other a bit. Law isn't a sure bet for $$$ anymore, but there are some who can make bank transitioning from law to business. I've seen this happen, especially in the transaction to principal side. I suspect the law degree didn't have much to do with it -- these dudes would have run up the MBA -> finance/consulting ladder in much the same way, I suspect.


So what practical hope is there for me then if I am not a business major and don't seem to have the "rain man" sort of mind needed to break the bank on Wall Street? (Obvious overstatement there, but truly I really don't know the first thing about economics or high-level banking/consulting.)

Practical hope for what?

You can make a good living being a lawyer. If you don't have a killer business instinct you aren't going to get mega rich. But plenty of people are succesful and live happy lives making middle class wages.

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AlabamaIceman
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby AlabamaIceman » Sun May 08, 2011 10:55 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
AlabamaIceman wrote:
PKSebben wrote:I agree with this. Although minnbills was talking in generalities. So you're talking past either other a bit. Law isn't a sure bet for $$$ anymore, but there are some who can make bank transitioning from law to business. I've seen this happen, especially in the transaction to principal side. I suspect the law degree didn't have much to do with it -- these dudes would have run up the MBA -> finance/consulting ladder in much the same way, I suspect.


So what practical hope is there for me then if I am not a business major and don't seem to have the "rain man" sort of mind needed to break the bank on Wall Street? (Obvious overstatement there, but truly I really don't know the first thing about economics or high-level banking/consulting.)

Practical hope for what?

You can make a good living being a lawyer. If you don't have a killer business instinct you aren't going to get mega rich. But plenty of people are succesful and live happy lives making middle class wages.


Again, I need to break my bad habit of unintentional miscommunication through overstatement... I meant what were my chances of gaining this business savvy that allows these individuals to branch out from a JD. So I guess your comment on business sense still applies... but I wonder if my inability thus far to wrap my head around that sort of thing is just an indication of not trying hard enough, or rather a similar inability to potentially remember and use all that they might try to teach me in law school.

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ResolutePear
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby ResolutePear » Sun May 08, 2011 10:57 pm

You go into law to practice law. You go into business to do business.

I sense as if many people are surprised that business professionals(especially those in finance) have high ceilings in this regard.

IB/Equities are especially lucrative imo.

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PKSebben
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby PKSebben » Sun May 08, 2011 10:58 pm

ResolutePear wrote:You go into law to practice law. You go into business to do business.

I sense as if many people are surprised that business professionals(especially those in finance) have high ceilings in this regard.

IB/Equities are especially lucrative imo.


Right, but you still gotta make it out of the Analyst / Associate ranks. Any idea what percentage get out of that?

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ResolutePear
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby ResolutePear » Sun May 08, 2011 11:01 pm

PKSebben wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:You go into law to practice law. You go into business to do business.

I sense as if many people are surprised that business professionals(especially those in finance) have high ceilings in this regard.

IB/Equities are especially lucrative imo.


Right, but you still gotta make it out of the Analyst / Associate ranks. Any idea what percentage get out of that?


I haven't looked it up; but to make an educated guess, I'd wager more than those who make big law partner.

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Patriot1208
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby Patriot1208 » Sun May 08, 2011 11:03 pm

AlabamaIceman wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:
AlabamaIceman wrote:So what practical hope is there for me then if I am not a business major and don't seem to have the "rain man" sort of mind needed to break the bank on Wall Street? (Obvious overstatement there, but truly I really don't know the first thing about economics or high-level banking/consulting.)

Practical hope for what?

You can make a good living being a lawyer. If you don't have a killer business instinct you aren't going to get mega rich. But plenty of people are succesful and live happy lives making middle class wages.


Again, I need to break my bad habit of unintentional miscommunication through overstatement... I meant what were my chances of gaining this business savvy that allows these individuals to branch out from a JD. So I guess your comment on business sense still applies... but I wonder if my inability thus far to wrap my head around that sort of thing is just an indication of not trying hard enough, or rather a similar inability to potentially remember and use all that they might try to teach me in law school.


Undergraduate business schools don't teach business savvy. Plenty of consultants and bankers came from liberal arts education. That really isn't a big deal. I think the only thing business school gave me was a couple years head start on learning details and facts, but not really learning any critical skills. It's pretty much something you have or you don't. And most people won't know it if they have it or not till they are thrust into the fire. If you are interested in finance, start reading finance books. If you are interested in consulting, well, there aren't a lot of good consulting books. I think it's just something you acquire or not, not really something that's necessarily learned. There is no quantifiable number on what your chances are, but you at least should make an effort to immerse yourself and learn what you can.

Honestly, it sounds like you need to take time off. I came on this site awhile ago convinced I was going to law school after graduation and now i'm trying to hustle myself into a consulting job instead. It will be tougher for you because I doubt there are any investment banks or consultanting firms that do a lot of recruiting at Auburn but with your GPA and some perserverance you can land something decent even with a TTT major. Then assess how you like it and then you can pursue graduate education in whatever field you may want to go into at that point.




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