If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Grant me a brief panic: if law is failing, what will I do?

Postby DoubleChecks » Sat May 07, 2011 11:08 pm

AlabamaIceman wrote:This forum has been a wellspring of information for me as a long-time lurker, but as the pressure of my June LSAT approaches and my senior year looms on the horizon, I only see to be able to find the completely fucking depressing parts of the forum regarding the future of the legal profession.

A bit of background: Big surprise, I was a public speaking/competitive debate kid in high school and even the first part of college, and while me and my peers were busy giving speeches on the history of Snickers bars and thinking we were the shit for doing so, the legal profession seemed to be my natural idol for a wealthy future. The reality started to set in that it was going to be a lot of work, but I just futzed around during my first two years, changing from one useless liberal arts major to another, until I settled on Political Science and brashly began proclaiming myself to be "pre-law."

Truth is, I'm an academic mutt, and I'm the stupidest smart person you'll ever meet. I didn't work or retain anything at all during my primary education, I just faked my way to a 33 on the ACT and then proceeded to binge cram and shit out A's during my undergraduate career thus far, to this moment I still feel like I have a nonexistent repository of factual knowledge, I'm the liberal arts major that the science majors actually have good reason to mock, seeing as I know little to nothing offhand about the subject matter of any of the various majors I have been under.

But still, I'm decent at logic and linear thinking, and because I tend to feel like I would be diagnosed with ADHD should I ever get myself looked at, I tend to favor less of the reading and writing and more of the public speaking and bullshitting. I'm an intelligent person, but not a smart person. Law school has until recently been my ivory tower in the sense that I thought "well once I kick the LSAT's ass and get there, I'll get real, learn a bunch of good shit, and then graduate and make bank." But this forum is telling me more and more of the opposite, basically that I'm a loon, and that I deserved to be laughed at to my face.

So yeah. If not lawl school, then what for me? I'm not dense to the point of ignoring the reality of the posts the decry the future of the profession, but some part of me still wants to make a wager of some sort and hope that the hell I would be forcing upon myself would be better than trying to wave my undergrad degree in the face of a corporate employer and then end up as a Costco manager.


wow reading this, wont lie, you sound like RDJ (or at least i read your whole post with his voice in my head, making it pretty badass). um, iunno OP, why dont you take the LSAT first and see where it lands you. doing what you love is important, etc. etc., but being good at what you do will make you love it too :P maybe law is for you, maybe it's not. you should look into that after you get an LSAT score. seeing as how you arent "in love" with law, getting into a tip top school looks to be your real shot of retaining law as your own personal goal haha.

rose711
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Re: Grant me a brief panic: if law is failing, what will I do?

Postby rose711 » Sat May 07, 2011 11:16 pm

What is your GPA? This matters. Got any LSAT practice test scores? Have you started to study for the LSAT yet? If you think you have ADD you need to get tested, it could be a big part of the issues you are having with school, even though you are smart enough to do well.

Look, law isn't for everyone. Just to get into law school is a huge amount of effort in LSAT prep and application prep. If you get accepted, you have to figure out carefully the cost:benefit ratios of where you want to attend. Then after you get in, law school is really demanding and highly pressurized. Then you have to go to OCI while still in school, knowing that your grades from last year may seal your fate. Then you have to shine at your SA (if you get one.) In any case, getting a job after graduation is terrifically competitive no matter where you go to school. And after all of that, after you graduate and have a job, you have to pass the bar exam, which is another grueling slog to the finish line.

Reading your post, I honestly don't think you are ready for any of those aspects of law school or building a career right now.

You need to find a job. You sound too ambitious to be satisfied with working a (relatively) low paying job for very long. So don't make the excuse that if you don't go to law school now, you will never go.

IMHO, the only reason to go to law school because you want to practice law. If you can find a job that will help you learn what that means, that is a good route to take. On the other hand, if you can manage to find something else that appeals to your more - do that - you aren't making your law school applications worse by taking time off and working.

Perhaps graduate school would be a better road to go for you?

I don't have more constructive or practical advice. Still, to go to law school because you think it fits your skill set - when you don't even really know what practicing law is all about - would be a mistake.
Last edited by rose711 on Sat May 07, 2011 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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AlabamaIceman
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Re: Grant me a brief panic: if law is failing, what will I do?

Postby AlabamaIceman » Sat May 07, 2011 11:19 pm

What is your GPA? This matters. Got any LSAT practice test scores? Have you started to study for the LSAT yet?


3.98, 165 on my first proctored practice exam.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Grant me a brief panic: if law is failing, what will I do?

Postby DoubleChecks » Sat May 07, 2011 11:20 pm

AlabamaIceman wrote:
What is your GPA? This matters. Got any LSAT practice test scores? Have you started to study for the LSAT yet?


3.98, 165 on my first proctored practice exam.


you'll be fine then, probs. also, it sounds to me, that you're worried more about the financial prospects of law rather than the 'love' for the law. that's fine. if you find it to be an intellectually challenging field (or something you could do for the rest of your life), then personally i say go for it if you're hitting the top.

rose711
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Re: Grant me a brief panic: if law is failing, what will I do?

Postby rose711 » Sat May 07, 2011 11:24 pm

AlabamaIceman wrote:
What is your GPA? This matters. Got any LSAT practice test scores? Have you started to study for the LSAT yet?


3.98, 165 on my first proctored practice exam.



Well, damn, maybe you are better at school than you think you are? Strong GPA will help with admissions, so at least you are good there. :)

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amers73
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Re: Grant me a brief panic: if law is failing, what will I do?

Postby amers73 » Sat May 07, 2011 11:37 pm

AlabamaIceman wrote:
What is your GPA? This matters. Got any LSAT practice test scores? Have you started to study for the LSAT yet?


3.98, 165 on my first proctored practice exam.


I wish I had your GPA. Retake, score 170+ and enjoy the t14 with $$. (if you decide that you really want to go to LS).

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Grant me a brief panic: if law is failing, what will I do?

Postby DoubleChecks » Sat May 07, 2011 11:41 pm

amers73 wrote:
AlabamaIceman wrote:
What is your GPA? This matters. Got any LSAT practice test scores? Have you started to study for the LSAT yet?


3.98, 165 on my first proctored practice exam.


I wish I had your GPA. Retake, score 170+ and enjoy the t14 with $$. (if you decide that you really want to go to LS).


lol its not even retake, 165 is his first practice exam

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BruceWayne
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby BruceWayne » Sun May 08, 2011 12:00 am

PKSebben wrote:
It seems like the natural progression of the skillset, albeit limited, that I have displayed in the past consisting of public speaking, logic, and argumentation skills.


I'm a lawyer and don't really use any of these things. How good are you at three-hole punching? Do you know how to use the find and replace feature of word? Can you stomach working 60-80 hours a week doing repetitive tasks? Would you be able to live with the feeling that you and your ilk are a drain on the economy?


The problem that so many people on here fail to recognize, is that this describes 90 percent of the jobs that one can work that pay a good deal of money. The other ten percent are not realistic goals for most people (doctor, professional athlete, CEO, actor, singer).

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DoubleChecks
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby DoubleChecks » Sun May 08, 2011 12:04 am

BruceWayne wrote:
PKSebben wrote:
It seems like the natural progression of the skillset, albeit limited, that I have displayed in the past consisting of public speaking, logic, and argumentation skills.


I'm a lawyer and don't really use any of these things. How good are you at three-hole punching? Do you know how to use the find and replace feature of word? Can you stomach working 60-80 hours a week doing repetitive tasks? Would you be able to live with the feeling that you and your ilk are a drain on the economy?


The problem that so many people on here fail to recognize, is that this describes 90 percent of the jobs that one can work that pay a good deal of money. The other ten percent are not realistic goals for most people (doctor, professional athlete, CEO, actor, singer).


wait, why is being a doctor less of a realistic goal than being a successful attorney? (i inferred successful because you're talking about jobs that pay a good deal of money)

if by good deal you even mean jobs that pay a bit less, get masters for clinical psychology, or do dentistry/optometry/pharmacy/engineering, etc. i can think of a lot of jobs -- iunno why they are less "accessible" lol

if you meant with a liberal arts degree that didnt involve office work of that nature, then it gets a bit tougher (besides aforementioned clinical psych) to think of a close to or at six-figure job...hmm...but im also from an immigrant family so my view of possible jobs is already biased, someone else care to enlighten?

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BruceWayne
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby BruceWayne » Sun May 08, 2011 12:14 am

DoubleChecks wrote:wait, why is being a doctor less of a realistic goal than being a successful attorney? (i inferred successful because you're talking about jobs that pay a good deal of money)

if by good deal you even mean jobs that pay a bit less, get masters for clinical psychology, or do dentistry/optometry/pharmacy/engineering, etc. i can think of a lot of jobs -- iunno why they are less "accessible" lol

if you meant with a liberal arts degree that didnt involve office work of that nature, then it gets a bit tougher (besides aforementioned clinical psych) to think of a close to or at six-figure job...hmm...but im also from an immigrant family so my view of possible jobs is already biased, someone else care to enlighten?


All of those fields you mentioned have a much higher barrier to entry than law. All you need for law is an undergraduate degree and an LSAT score. In addition far fewer people have the intellectual capacity to pass the hurdles needed to be accepted to medical school. It is a far more intellectually difficult subject to excel in (which you must to be accepted to any med school--not just a high ranking one). Although people in here go into these long rants about how law is the worst profession alive and how there are so many other options for making a comparable salary, they're aren't. The truth is that a lot of the people on here are out of touch with reality and/or attended elite undergrad institutions where they did have a variety of other employment options.
Last edited by BruceWayne on Sun May 08, 2011 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PKSebben
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby PKSebben » Sun May 08, 2011 12:17 am

BruceWayne wrote:
PKSebben wrote:
It seems like the natural progression of the skillset, albeit limited, that I have displayed in the past consisting of public speaking, logic, and argumentation skills.


I'm a lawyer and don't really use any of these things. How good are you at three-hole punching? Do you know how to use the find and replace feature of word? Can you stomach working 60-80 hours a week doing repetitive tasks? Would you be able to live with the feeling that you and your ilk are a drain on the economy?


The problem that so many people on here fail to recognize, is that this describes 90 percent of the jobs that one can work that pay a good deal of money. The other ten percent are not realistic goals for most people (doctor, professional athlete, CEO, actor, singer).


I'm disgustingly overpaid and ridiculously underpaid at the same time. It's fascinating, really. To be fair, I've gotten to do some cool stuff way ahead of my class year, but most of what I do is pretty standard low-level stuff. It's really not that bad. But it's horrible. You'll understand one day.

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ResolutePear
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby ResolutePear » Sun May 08, 2011 12:20 am

DoubleChecks wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
PKSebben wrote:
It seems like the natural progression of the skillset, albeit limited, that I have displayed in the past consisting of public speaking, logic, and argumentation skills.


I'm a lawyer and don't really use any of these things. How good are you at three-hole punching? Do you know how to use the find and replace feature of word? Can you stomach working 60-80 hours a week doing repetitive tasks? Would you be able to live with the feeling that you and your ilk are a drain on the economy?


The problem that so many people on here fail to recognize, is that this describes 90 percent of the jobs that one can work that pay a good deal of money. The other ten percent are not realistic goals for most people (doctor, professional athlete, CEO, actor, singer).


wait, why is being a doctor less of a realistic goal than being a successful attorney? (i inferred successful because you're talking about jobs that pay a good deal of money)

if by good deal you even mean jobs that pay a bit less, get masters for clinical psychology, or do dentistry/optometry/pharmacy/engineering, etc. i can think of a lot of jobs -- iunno why they are less "accessible" lol

if you meant with a liberal arts degree that didnt involve office work of that nature, then it gets a bit tougher (besides aforementioned clinical psych) to think of a close to or at six-figure job...hmm...but im also from an immigrant family so my view of possible jobs is already biased, someone else care to enlighten?


I agree. Being a CEO, Prof. Athelete, etc. have an amount of luck attributed to them - even if it is being "at the right place at the right time."

Being a doctor on the other hand, does offer stability at the cost of maximum potential. Regardless, it's not a "get rich" profession.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby DoubleChecks » Sun May 08, 2011 12:20 am

BruceWayne wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:wait, why is being a doctor less of a realistic goal than being a successful attorney? (i inferred successful because you're talking about jobs that pay a good deal of money)

if by good deal you even mean jobs that pay a bit less, get masters for clinical psychology, or do dentistry/optometry/pharmacy/engineering, etc. i can think of a lot of jobs -- iunno why they are less "accessible" lol

if you meant with a liberal arts degree that didnt involve office work of that nature, then it gets a bit tougher (besides aforementioned clinical psych) to think of a close to or at six-figure job...hmm...but im also from an immigrant family so my view of possible jobs is already biased, someone else care to enlighten?


All of those fields you mentioned have a much higher barrier to entry than law. All you need for law is an undergraduate degree and an LSAT score. In addition far fewer people have the intellectual capacity to pass the hurdles needed to be accepted to medical school. It is a far more intellectually difficult subject to excel in (which you must to be accepted to any med school--not just a high ranking one). Although people in here go into these long rants about how law is the worst profession alive and how there are so many other options for making a comparable salary, they're aren't.


well no, because we're not comparing any law school to any medical school right? not really, right? going by conventional TLS wisdom, it would be more like comparing any medical school to a GOOD law school (wherever you want to make that cutoff) because the bad ones (and there are many) do NOT lead to jobs that pay a good deal of money

i disagree with the bolded. a lot of TLSers are ranting about the salary prospects coming out of TTTs or the like, in which case i agree and can imagine a LOT of other jobs that end up paying the same amount or more than law

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Ty Webb
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby Ty Webb » Sun May 08, 2011 12:30 am

ResolutePear wrote:
Being a doctor on the other hand, does offer stability at the cost of maximum potential. Regardless, it's not a "get rich" profession.


You have a strange definition of "rich."

Do you know how much net worth you have at age 50 if you're a good doctor without a coke/heroin/gambling problem?

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DoubleChecks
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby DoubleChecks » Sun May 08, 2011 12:33 am

Ty Webb wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
Being a doctor on the other hand, does offer stability at the cost of maximum potential. Regardless, it's not a "get rich" profession.


You have a strange definition of "rich."

Do you know how much net worth you have at age 50 if you're a good doctor without a coke/heroin/gambling problem?


tbf, everyone's definition of "rich" may vary dramatically lol

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ResolutePear
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby ResolutePear » Sun May 08, 2011 12:38 am

Ty Webb wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
Being a doctor on the other hand, does offer stability at the cost of maximum potential. Regardless, it's not a "get rich" profession.


You have a strange definition of "rich."

Do you know how much net worth you have at age 50 if you're a good doctor without a coke/heroin/gambling problem?


In relation to a successful lawyer, CEO, actress, professional athlete?

They're fucking poor when taking averages.

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Ty Webb
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby Ty Webb » Sun May 08, 2011 12:39 am

AlabamaIceman wrote:Edit:

tl;dr I'm being whiny and am not sure if law school is for me, rabble rabble.


People on high school debate teams actually thought they were cool for doing it?

Do yourself a favor and pretend that you played football, or golf, or did anything other than debate team as a high schooler.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby DoubleChecks » Sun May 08, 2011 12:43 am

ResolutePear wrote:
Ty Webb wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
Being a doctor on the other hand, does offer stability at the cost of maximum potential. Regardless, it's not a "get rich" profession.


You have a strange definition of "rich."

Do you know how much net worth you have at age 50 if you're a good doctor without a coke/heroin/gambling problem?


In relation to a successful lawyer, CEO, actress, professional athlete?

They're fucking poor when taking averages.


wait, iunno about a doctor vs. lawyer avg comparison though lol

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ResolutePear
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby ResolutePear » Sun May 08, 2011 12:45 am

DoubleChecks wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
Ty Webb wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
Being a doctor on the other hand, does offer stability at the cost of maximum potential. Regardless, it's not a "get rich" profession.


You have a strange definition of "rich."

Do you know how much net worth you have at age 50 if you're a good doctor without a coke/heroin/gambling problem?


In relation to a successful lawyer, CEO, actress, professional athlete?

They're fucking poor when taking averages.


wait, iunno about a doctor vs. lawyer avg comparison though lol


How about now?

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DoubleChecks
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby DoubleChecks » Sun May 08, 2011 12:47 am

ResolutePear wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:
In relation to a successful lawyer, CEO, actress, professional athlete?

They're fucking poor when taking averages.


wait, iunno about a doctor vs. lawyer avg comparison though lol


How about now?


wait, are you comparing an average doctor to a successful lawyer now? thats not fair :P

edited for emphasis
Last edited by DoubleChecks on Sun May 08, 2011 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

rose711
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby rose711 » Sun May 08, 2011 12:47 am

FWIW - I thought the unedited first post by OP raised some excellent questions. The problem is that we don't necessarily have the answers to these questions, and can only make suggestions.

Somehow I got the feeling that OP is going to be very successful once he gets it all sorted out.

I think he could be a good lawyer if that is what he wants to do.

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ResolutePear
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby ResolutePear » Sun May 08, 2011 12:49 am

The averages of successful lawyers to successful doctors.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby DoubleChecks » Sun May 08, 2011 12:53 am

ResolutePear wrote:The averages of successful lawyers to successful doctors.


hm, that sounds fair

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Ty Webb
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby Ty Webb » Sun May 08, 2011 1:01 am

ResolutePear wrote:The averages of successful lawyers to successful doctors.


I tend to think you are very, very wrong about this, even with the inclusion of the unworkably subjective "successful" distinction.

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ResolutePear
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Re: If law is failing, what would be my best alternative?

Postby ResolutePear » Sun May 08, 2011 1:15 am

Ty Webb wrote:
ResolutePear wrote:The averages of successful lawyers to successful doctors.


I tend to think you are very, very wrong about this, even with the inclusion of the unworkably subjective "successful" distinction.


Go research.

Studentdoctor.com is a decent place to start. There are articles on this as well.

There are restrictions on what a doctor can charge vs. what a lawyer can charge.




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