My observation about the people on this board

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whymeohgodno
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby whymeohgodno » Wed May 04, 2011 12:55 pm

bk1 wrote:Tiger Dad: Life is random, things can work out even if you make bad choices.

Me: Why make bad choices in the first place?


Gross oversimplification + strawmen all in one. Cheers.

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geoduck
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby geoduck » Wed May 04, 2011 12:56 pm

bk1 wrote:Tiger Dad: Life is random, things can work out even if you make bad choices.

Me: Why make bad choices in the first place?


Risk V Reward is very important. For some, law school may truly be a bad choice. You may end up not doing law at all and paying off your loans for 25 years and then getting a 5 year payment plan from the IRS for the forgiven debt tax.

Really, though, it's hard to know for sure. I agree with many here that if you really want to be a lawyer and aren't just drawn to models and bottles, you should do it even if you accrue the debt. However this is a board that self-selects for overachievers, so obviously we'd be biased to creating low risk-high reward situations :D

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bk1
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby bk1 » Wed May 04, 2011 12:56 pm

kwais wrote:
bk1 wrote:Tiger Dad: Life is random, things can work out even if you make bad choices.

Me: Why make bad choices in the first place?


oh sweet! problem solved, don't make bad choices! amazing


Dude, he seriously advocated that going to schools where less than 1/4 of graduates get full time legal positions within 9 months. He is telling people to make absolutely atrocious decisions and that things will work out in the end.

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BackToTheOldHouse
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby BackToTheOldHouse » Wed May 04, 2011 12:57 pm

Patriot, I think you hit it on the head--I am more laid back than most. I see your side completely. I also, however, find a bit of wisdom in what Tiger dad had to say. Maybe that's just the fatherly instinct showing itself in me. :D

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BackToTheOldHouse
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby BackToTheOldHouse » Wed May 04, 2011 12:58 pm

bk1 wrote:
kwais wrote:
bk1 wrote:Tiger Dad: Life is random, things can work out even if you make bad choices.

Me: Why make bad choices in the first place?


oh sweet! problem solved, don't make bad choices! amazing


Dude, he seriously advocated that going to schools where less than 1/4 of graduates get full time legal positions within 9 months. He is telling people to make absolutely atrocious decisions and that things will work out in the end.

Egregious hyperbole.

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thecilent
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby thecilent » Wed May 04, 2011 12:59 pm

Tiger dad wrote:I know the last thing you want to read are posts from adults who read this forum because they have a son applying to law school. And I don't think I can possibly be as interesting as tax guy but after many months lurking and cheering silently for all of you, I felt a need to post on this thread.

Life, in my experience is random not linear. I grew up in a lower middle class family, attended a decent State University and a second tier Graduate School. I was unemployed/underemployed for periods during my 20s, changed jobs several times due to family issues and made some mistakes along the way including a failed first marriage. Noone on TLS would have approved of my choices and probably would have predicted that I was doomed to be mired in mediocrity.

I worked hard and had some luck but am never the smartest, best educated or best looking person in a room. Nontheless, I am an executive with a Fortune 200 company earning well over $1 million per year and have had a truly rewarding, fulfilling and enriching career. After 30 years I am still excited to go to work most days.

Even if you graduate from a 20-100 law school with some debt and don't get your dream big-law job right away, do what you love ( or at least like), be determined and resilient, try to find some balance and things will work out for you in the end.

YFWGI

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98234872348
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby 98234872348 » Wed May 04, 2011 12:59 pm

BackToTheOldHouse wrote:
bk1 wrote:
kwais wrote:
bk1 wrote:Tiger Dad: Life is random, things can work out even if you make bad choices.

Me: Why make bad choices in the first place?


oh sweet! problem solved, don't make bad choices! amazing


Dude, he seriously advocated that going to schools where less than 1/4 of graduates get full time legal positions within 9 months. He is telling people to make absolutely atrocious decisions and that things will work out in the end.

Egregious hyperbole.

no.

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bk1
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby bk1 » Wed May 04, 2011 12:59 pm

I reiterate, Tiger Dad said that if you go to a law school ranked 20-100 and like being a lawyer, then things will work out. At many of these schools, less than 1/2 of grads get full time legal employment within 9 months, and for a chunk of them it is less than 1/4.

How can things work out at these schools even if you went for free, let alone if you paid $200,000+?

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kwais
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby kwais » Wed May 04, 2011 1:02 pm

bk1 wrote:
kwais wrote:
bk1 wrote:Tiger Dad: Life is random, things can work out even if you make bad choices.

Me: Why make bad choices in the first place?


oh sweet! problem solved, don't make bad choices! amazing


Dude, he seriously advocated that going to schools where less than 1/4 of graduates get full time legal positions within 9 months. He is telling people to make absolutely atrocious decisions and that things will work out in the end.


Wow, way to completely refashion the man's argument to fit your purposes. He never said anything of the sort. He simply said, "hey for all of you who are sure that sky is falling, here is a single story of how it worked out for me, enjoy". I am 99% on board with TLS "wisdom". I just turned down bog money at T20 for sticker at T6 for fear of job prospects. But this attack on Tiger Dad just makes you all look like you have completely lost all perspective on what life is really about

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BackToTheOldHouse
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby BackToTheOldHouse » Wed May 04, 2011 1:03 pm

bk1 wrote:I reiterate, Tiger Dad said that if you go to a law school ranked 20-100 and like being a lawyer, then things will work out. At many of these schools, less than 1/2 of grads get full time legal employment within 9 months, and for a chunk of them it is less than 1/4.

How can things work out at these schools even if you went for free, let alone if you paid $200,000+?

If a student went to, say, Santa Clara University for free, you don't see how things could possibly work out?

Also, using "absolutely atrocious" is overkill.

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bk1
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby bk1 » Wed May 04, 2011 1:03 pm

mistergoft wrote:
BackToTheOldHouse wrote:Egregious hyperbole.

no.


Thank you. To respond to the egregious hyperbole part, random T100 schools and their full time legal employment within 9 months percentage (culled from LST):

American - 58
Arizona - 59
Santa Clara - 23
Loyola Marymount - 60

aliarrow
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby aliarrow » Wed May 04, 2011 1:04 pm

kwais wrote:Wow, way to completely refashion the man's argument to fit your purposes. He never said anything of the sort. He simply said, "hey for all of you who are sure that sky is falling, here is a single story of how it worked out for me, enjoy". I am 99% on board with TLS "wisdom". I just turned down bog money at T20 for sticker at T6 for fear of job prospects. But this attack on Tiger Dad just makes you all look like you have completely lost all perspective on what life is really about


This. That's why my recent posts sounded like something from... taxguy *shutters*

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BackToTheOldHouse
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby BackToTheOldHouse » Wed May 04, 2011 1:04 pm

kwais wrote:
bk1 wrote:
kwais wrote:
bk1 wrote:Tiger Dad: Life is random, things can work out even if you make bad choices.

Me: Why make bad choices in the first place?


oh sweet! problem solved, don't make bad choices! amazing


Dude, he seriously advocated that going to schools where less than 1/4 of graduates get full time legal positions within 9 months. He is telling people to make absolutely atrocious decisions and that things will work out in the end.


Wow, way to completely refashion the man's argument to fit your purposes. He never said anything of the sort. He simply said, "hey for all of you who are sure that sky is falling, here is a single story of how it worked out for me, enjoy". I am 99% on board with TLS "wisdom". I just turned down bog money at T20 for sticker at T6 for fear of job prospects. But this attack on Tiger Dad just makes you all look like you have completely lost all perspective on what life is really about

I agree with this position.

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bk1
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby bk1 » Wed May 04, 2011 1:06 pm

Okay I will quote the part that is most problematic:

Tiger dad wrote:Even if you graduate from a 20-100 law school with some debt and don't get your dream big-law job right away, do what you love ( or at least like), be determined and resilient, try to find some balance and things will work out for you in the end.


And yes, I do think that spending 3 years of your life at SCU for a less than 1 in 4 chance at full time legal employment, even with 0 debt, is probably a bad idea financially. Would I advise somebody to take it? Sure if they really really wanted to be a lawyer and that was their bast chance they could possibly get. But I find it highly suspect that someone could get that as their best offer, not to mention that most of these schools have scholarship stipulations and almost none of them offer stipends to cover CoL.

Maybe him and I differ from the definition of what "working out in the end" is.

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kwais
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby kwais » Wed May 04, 2011 1:12 pm

bk1 wrote:Okay I will quote the part that is most problematic:

Tiger dad wrote:Even if you graduate from a 20-100 law school with some debt and don't get your dream big-law job right away, do what you love ( or at least like), be determined and resilient, try to find some balance and things will work out for you in the end.


And yes, I do think that spending 3 years of your life at SCU for a less than 1 in 4 chance at full time legal employment, even with 0 debt, is probably a bad idea financially. Would I advise somebody to take it? Sure if they really really wanted to be a lawyer and that was their bast chance they could possibly get. But I find it highly suspect that someone could get that as their best offer, not to mention that most of these schools have scholarship stipulations and almost none of them offer stipends to cover CoL.

Maybe him and I differ from the definition of what "working out in the end" is.


Clearly you do differ. Things working out in the end could either mean "enjoying your job, having healthy kids, having hobbies, having strong relationships" or "being guaranteed a legal job within 4 hours of graduation" . Granted Tiger Dad makes bank, but I do believe he was leaning towards definition A while you are firmly tied to definition B.

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Patriot1208
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby Patriot1208 » Wed May 04, 2011 1:14 pm

kwais wrote:
bk1 wrote:Okay I will quote the part that is most problematic:

Tiger dad wrote:Even if you graduate from a 20-100 law school with some debt and don't get your dream big-law job right away, do what you love ( or at least like), be determined and resilient, try to find some balance and things will work out for you in the end.


And yes, I do think that spending 3 years of your life at SCU for a less than 1 in 4 chance at full time legal employment, even with 0 debt, is probably a bad idea financially. Would I advise somebody to take it? Sure if they really really wanted to be a lawyer and that was their bast chance they could possibly get. But I find it highly suspect that someone could get that as their best offer, not to mention that most of these schools have scholarship stipulations and almost none of them offer stipends to cover CoL.

Maybe him and I differ from the definition of what "working out in the end" is.


Clearly you do differ. Things working out in the end could either mean "enjoying your job, having healthy kids, having hobbies, having strong relationships" or "being guaranteed a legal job within 4 hours of graduation" . Granted Tiger Dad makes bank, but I do believe he was leaning towards definition A while you are firmly tied to definition B.

Maybe he is and i'd like him to clarify. But I view education as a monetary investment because that's what it is. I pay something in hopes of making more later. Tiger Dad made a point of telling us how much he made so I assumed that he was speaking monetarily as well.

whymeohgodno
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby whymeohgodno » Wed May 04, 2011 1:14 pm

Perhaps we need tigerdad to come back and clarify :D . "Working out in the end" is pretty ambiguous.

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kwais
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby kwais » Wed May 04, 2011 1:15 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
kwais wrote:
bk1 wrote:Okay I will quote the part that is most problematic:

Tiger dad wrote:Even if you graduate from a 20-100 law school with some debt and don't get your dream big-law job right away, do what you love ( or at least like), be determined and resilient, try to find some balance and things will work out for you in the end.


And yes, I do think that spending 3 years of your life at SCU for a less than 1 in 4 chance at full time legal employment, even with 0 debt, is probably a bad idea financially. Would I advise somebody to take it? Sure if they really really wanted to be a lawyer and that was their bast chance they could possibly get. But I find it highly suspect that someone could get that as their best offer, not to mention that most of these schools have scholarship stipulations and almost none of them offer stipends to cover CoL.

Maybe him and I differ from the definition of what "working out in the end" is.


Clearly you do differ. Things working out in the end could either mean "enjoying your job, having healthy kids, having hobbies, having strong relationships" or "being guaranteed a legal job within 4 hours of graduation" . Granted Tiger Dad makes bank, but I do believe he was leaning towards definition A while you are firmly tied to definition B.

Maybe he is and i'd like him to clarify. But I view education as a monetary investment because that's what it is. I pay something in hopes of making more later. Tiger Dad made a point of telling us how much he made so I assumed that he was speaking monetarily as well.


fair enough, you may be right

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geoduck
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby geoduck » Wed May 04, 2011 1:17 pm

To be fair, it's a vast simplification to say that he simply stated that if you go to a Top 100 school that things will work out in the end. He had several conditions to that working out bit and craftily didn't define working out as necessarily having anything to do with being an accomplished lawyer. Also the whole "end" part of that statement sort of makes the 9 month employment numbers rather irrelevant.

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BackToTheOldHouse
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby BackToTheOldHouse » Wed May 04, 2011 1:20 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
kwais wrote:
bk1 wrote:Okay I will quote the part that is most problematic:

Tiger dad wrote:Even if you graduate from a 20-100 law school with some debt and don't get your dream big-law job right away, do what you love ( or at least like), be determined and resilient, try to find some balance and things will work out for you in the end.


And yes, I do think that spending 3 years of your life at SCU for a less than 1 in 4 chance at full time legal employment, even with 0 debt, is probably a bad idea financially. Would I advise somebody to take it? Sure if they really really wanted to be a lawyer and that was their bast chance they could possibly get. But I find it highly suspect that someone could get that as their best offer, not to mention that most of these schools have scholarship stipulations and almost none of them offer stipends to cover CoL.

Maybe him and I differ from the definition of what "working out in the end" is.


Clearly you do differ. Things working out in the end could either mean "enjoying your job, having healthy kids, having hobbies, having strong relationships" or "being guaranteed a legal job within 4 hours of graduation" . Granted Tiger Dad makes bank, but I do believe he was leaning towards definition A while you are firmly tied to definition B.

Maybe he is and i'd like him to clarify. But I view education as a monetary investment because that's what it is. I pay something in hopes of making more later. Tiger Dad made a point of telling us how much he made so I assumed that he was speaking monetarily as well.

Awesome logic. I view marriage as a monetary investment because that's what it is. I view exercise and fitness as a monetary investment because that's what it is. I view going to the movies as a monetary investment because that's what it is. I pay something in hopes of making more later.

No, law school is not the same as these things, but to boil down going to law school as a strictly monetary investment is probably not the best thing to do. But what do I know, I'm an 0L. :wink:

whymeohgodno
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby whymeohgodno » Wed May 04, 2011 1:22 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
kwais wrote:
bk1 wrote:Okay I will quote the part that is most problematic:

Tiger dad wrote:Even if you graduate from a 20-100 law school with some debt and don't get your dream big-law job right away, do what you love ( or at least like), be determined and resilient, try to find some balance and things will work out for you in the end.


And yes, I do think that spending 3 years of your life at SCU for a less than 1 in 4 chance at full time legal employment, even with 0 debt, is probably a bad idea financially. Would I advise somebody to take it? Sure if they really really wanted to be a lawyer and that was their bast chance they could possibly get. But I find it highly suspect that someone could get that as their best offer, not to mention that most of these schools have scholarship stipulations and almost none of them offer stipends to cover CoL.

Maybe him and I differ from the definition of what "working out in the end" is.


Clearly you do differ. Things working out in the end could either mean "enjoying your job, having healthy kids, having hobbies, having strong relationships" or "being guaranteed a legal job within 4 hours of graduation" . Granted Tiger Dad makes bank, but I do believe he was leaning towards definition A while you are firmly tied to definition B.

Maybe he is and i'd like him to clarify. But I view education as a monetary investment because that's what it is. I pay something in hopes of making more later. Tiger Dad made a point of telling us how much he made so I assumed that he was speaking monetarily as well.


If you view law school purely as a monetary interest, there are much more worthwhile things to do unless you get into HYS.

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Patriot1208
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby Patriot1208 » Wed May 04, 2011 1:24 pm

whymeohgodno wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:
kwais wrote:Clearly you do differ. Things working out in the end could either mean "enjoying your job, having healthy kids, having hobbies, having strong relationships" or "being guaranteed a legal job within 4 hours of graduation" . Granted Tiger Dad makes bank, but I do believe he was leaning towards definition A while you are firmly tied to definition B.

Maybe he is and i'd like him to clarify. But I view education as a monetary investment because that's what it is. I pay something in hopes of making more later. Tiger Dad made a point of telling us how much he made so I assumed that he was speaking monetarily as well.


If you view law school purely as a monetary interest, there are much more worthwhile things to do unless you get into HYS.

I view all education as a monetary investment, including UG. And it depends on what your other options are.

whymeohgodno
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby whymeohgodno » Wed May 04, 2011 1:25 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
whymeohgodno wrote:
Patriot1208 wrote:
kwais wrote:Clearly you do differ. Things working out in the end could either mean "enjoying your job, having healthy kids, having hobbies, having strong relationships" or "being guaranteed a legal job within 4 hours of graduation" . Granted Tiger Dad makes bank, but I do believe he was leaning towards definition A while you are firmly tied to definition B.

Maybe he is and i'd like him to clarify. But I view education as a monetary investment because that's what it is. I pay something in hopes of making more later. Tiger Dad made a point of telling us how much he made so I assumed that he was speaking monetarily as well.


If you view law school purely as a monetary interest, there are much more worthwhile things to do unless you get into HYS.

I view all education as a monetary investment, including UG. And it depends on what your other options are.


You probably should have majored in engineering then.

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bk1
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby bk1 » Wed May 04, 2011 1:25 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:Maybe he is and i'd like him to clarify. But I view education as a monetary investment because that's what it is. I pay something in hopes of making more later. Tiger Dad made a point of telling us how much he made so I assumed that he was speaking monetarily as well.


Well I think it is both monetary and personal. I mean you could look at it from a purely monetary perspective but I think that's poor. I think the point is personal (e.g. you should go to school because it helps you get a job that you want), but that you can't just ignore the monetary investment either.

The personal part is that you pay something in hopes that you will do something you want to later. The monetary part is that you pay something that won't break the bank. In an ideal situation you would recoup your investment, but assuming that you are okay with a certain standard of living, as long as you aren't breaking the bank and ending up destitute I don't see anything wrong with paying for a certain degree.

My problem with certain schools is that a significant chunk of them don't even become lawyers (they end up either unemployed or employed nonlegal or employed in dead-end part time work). I guess you could lump in the part timers and say that they are actual lawyers but that seems to be a bit optimistic.

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Moral_Midgetry
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby Moral_Midgetry » Wed May 04, 2011 1:25 pm

Has taxguy created an alt?




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