My observation about the people on this board

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silenttimer
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My observation about the people on this board

Postby silenttimer » Tue May 03, 2011 12:40 pm

Before I begin my thoughts, I would like to introduce myself. I started reading TLS in the Fall of 2006, when I was applying to law schools. I graduated in 2010 from a top 30 school (my school fluctuates within the top 20-30 range) in the top 35-40% of my class. I'm currently clerking at the state level. Like may others from the class of 2010, I was no-offered by my summer firm (NLJ 250). I graduated with substantial debt (over 100K).

I DO NOT REGRET GOING TO LAW SCHOOL!!! I've came back to this board a few days back, hoping to offer some advice. As I began reading the threats, it struck me how much mis-information (or at the very least, exaggerated information) are actually being spread on this forum. While I understand that the market is tough and jobs are hard to come by, it really irritates me when I read a post from a 0L talking about how impossible it is to get a job if you come out great non-T14 schools (BC, BU, W&M, W&L, Emory, UNC, etc). And the level of perceived-prestige is out of control, especially when I hear things like: "so and so firm or position is pretty much out of reached if you are not top 10% at so and so school." While that may be true to an extent, it comes off as uninformed and ignorant to make such an assertion as a 0L. My point is this: Questioning the law school and employment process is a great thing to do, but please refrain from being a know-it-all, especially when you have not gone through the process yourself.

It is not doomsday if you graduated from a very good regional school without a job. You will not get rich right away, but with time, you WILL BE FINE if you want to be a lawyer. Some of my friends are struggling (as expected in this economy) and some are doing really well despite this economy and not having gone to a non-T14 school. Yes, even a few people who graduated from the bottom half of my class got big law (grasp!).

My advice to those who are applying to school is to read the information on this forum with a grain of salt. Most are being posted by 0L with no experience, and are simply regurgitating (sometimes in a very exaggerative fashion) information that they read and/or heard from a fourth party. Don't get me wrong, things are tough. But if you want to be a lawyer and have gotten into a good school, the debt may be worth it. Ultimately, so long as you make an inform decision, you cannot go wrong.

Good luck to you, class of 2014! I look forward to you all joining this great profession.

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almightypush
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby almightypush » Tue May 03, 2011 12:44 pm

silenttimer wrote:Before I begin my thoughts, I would like to introduce myself. I started reading TLS in the Fall of 2006, when I was applying to law schools. I graduated in 2010 from a top 30 school (my school fluctuates within the top 20-30 range) in the top 35-40% of my class. I'm currently clerking at the state level. Like may others from the class of 2010, I was no-offered by my summer firm (NLJ 250). I graduated with substantial debt (over 100K).

I DO NOT REGRET GOING TO LAW SCHOOL!!! I've came back to this board a few days back, hoping to offer some advice. As I began reading the threats, it struck me how much mis-information (or at the very least, exaggerated information) are actually being spread on this forum. While I understand that the market is tough and jobs are hard to come by, it really irritates me when I read a post from a 0L talking about how impossible it is to get a job if you come out great non-T14 schools (BC, BU, W&M, W&L, Emory, UNC, etc). And the level of perceived-prestige is out of control, especially when I hear things like: "so and so firm or position is pretty much out of reached if you are not top 10% at so and so school." While that may be true to an extent, it comes off as uninformed and ignorant to make such an assertion as a 0L. My point is this: Questioning the law school and employment process is a great thing to do, but please refrain from being a know-it-all, especially when you have not gone through the process yourself.

It is not doomsday if you graduated from a very good regional school without a job. You will not get rich right away, but with time, you WILL BE FINE if you want to be a lawyer. Some of my friends are struggling (as expected in this economy) and some are doing really well despite this economy and not having gone to a non-T14 school. Yes, even a few people who graduated from the bottom half of my class got big law (grasp!).

My advice to those who are applying to school is to read the information on this forum with a grain of salt. Most are being posted by 0L with no experience, and are simply regurgitating (sometimes in a very exaggerative fashion) information that they read and/or heard from a fourth party. Don't get me wrong, things are tough. But if you want to be a lawyer and have gotten into a good school, the debt may be worth it. Ultimately, so long as you make an inform decision, you cannot go wrong.

Good luck to you, class of 2014! I look forward to you all joining this great profession.


Image

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bk1
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby bk1 » Tue May 03, 2011 12:46 pm

How distorted do you think your view is because your debt is about half of what sticker price is at law school these days?

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glitter178
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby glitter178 » Tue May 03, 2011 12:47 pm

silenttimer wrote:Before I begin my thoughts, I would like to introduce myself. I started reading TLS in the Fall of 2006, when I was applying to law schools. I graduated in 2010 from a top 30 school (my school fluctuates within the top 20-30 range) in the top 35-40% of my class. I'm currently clerking at the state level. Like may others from the class of 2010, I was no-offered by my summer firm (NLJ 250). I graduated with substantial debt (over 100K).

I DO NOT REGRET GOING TO LAW SCHOOL!!! I've came back to this board a few days back, hoping to offer some advice. As I began reading the threats, it struck me how much mis-information (or at the very least, exaggerated information) are actually being spread on this forum. While I understand that the market is tough and jobs are hard to come by, it really irritates me when I read a post from a 0L talking about how impossible it is to get a job if you come out great non-T14 schools (BC, BU, W&M, W&L, Emory, UNC, etc). And the level of perceived-prestige is out of control, especially when I hear things like: "so and so firm or position is pretty much out of reached if you are not top 10% at so and so school." While that may be true to an extent, it comes off as uninformed and ignorant to make such an assertion as a 0L. My point is this: Questioning the law school and employment process is a great thing to do, but please refrain from being a know-it-all, especially when you have not gone through the process yourself.

It is not doomsday if you graduated from a very good regional school without a job. You will not get rich right away, but with time, you WILL BE FINE if you want to be a lawyer. Some of my friends are struggling (as expected in this economy) and some are doing really well despite this economy and not having gone to a non-T14 school. Yes, even a few people who graduated from the bottom half of my class got big law (grasp!).

My advice to those who are applying to school is to read the information on this forum with a grain of salt. Most are being posted by 0L with no experience, and are simply regurgitating (sometimes in a very exaggerative fashion) information that they read and/or heard from a fourth party. Don't get me wrong, things are tough. But if you want to be a lawyer and have gotten into a good school, the debt may be worth it. Ultimately, so long as you make an inform decision, you cannot go wrong.

Good luck to you, class of 2014! I look forward to you all joining this great profession.

Just curious, what do you think helped some students get biglaw despite poor grades, while others suffered? I'm not being snarky; I'm genuinely curious. If, for example, it was based on networking, good interviewing, etc, then that's great. But if these students got jobs because they happened to have PhDs in engineering, it says more about them and less about prospects for the typical student, regardless of grades.

aliarrow
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby aliarrow » Tue May 03, 2011 12:48 pm

I am disappoint.

I was really hoping this thread would be by taxguy.

ETA: I actually read it and I appreciate your perspective.

silenttimer
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby silenttimer » Tue May 03, 2011 1:04 pm

glitter178 wrote:
silenttimer wrote:Before I begin my thoughts, I would like to introduce myself. I started reading TLS in the Fall of 2006, when I was applying to law schools. I graduated in 2010 from a top 30 school (my school fluctuates within the top 20-30 range) in the top 35-40% of my class. I'm currently clerking at the state level. Like may others from the class of 2010, I was no-offered by my summer firm (NLJ 250). I graduated with substantial debt (over 100K).

I DO NOT REGRET GOING TO LAW SCHOOL!!! I've came back to this board a few days back, hoping to offer some advice. As I began reading the threats, it struck me how much mis-information (or at the very least, exaggerated information) are actually being spread on this forum. While I understand that the market is tough and jobs are hard to come by, it really irritates me when I read a post from a 0L talking about how impossible it is to get a job if you come out great non-T14 schools (BC, BU, W&M, W&L, Emory, UNC, etc). And the level of perceived-prestige is out of control, especially when I hear things like: "so and so firm or position is pretty much out of reached if you are not top 10% at so and so school." While that may be true to an extent, it comes off as uninformed and ignorant to make such an assertion as a 0L. My point is this: Questioning the law school and employment process is a great thing to do, but please refrain from being a know-it-all, especially when you have not gone through the process yourself.

It is not doomsday if you graduated from a very good regional school without a job. You will not get rich right away, but with time, you WILL BE FINE if you want to be a lawyer. Some of my friends are struggling (as expected in this economy) and some are doing really well despite this economy and not having gone to a non-T14 school. Yes, even a few people who graduated from the bottom half of my class got big law (grasp!).

My advice to those who are applying to school is to read the information on this forum with a grain of salt. Most are being posted by 0L with no experience, and are simply regurgitating (sometimes in a very exaggerative fashion) information that they read and/or heard from a fourth party. Don't get me wrong, things are tough. But if you want to be a lawyer and have gotten into a good school, the debt may be worth it. Ultimately, so long as you make an inform decision, you cannot go wrong.

Good luck to you, class of 2014! I look forward to you all joining this great profession.

Just curious, what do you think helped some students get biglaw despite poor grades, while others suffered? I'm not being snarky; I'm genuinely curious. If, for example, it was based on networking, good interviewing, etc, then that's great. But if these students got jobs because they happened to have PhDs in engineering, it says more about them and less about prospects for the typical student, regardless of grades.



One person in particular was at the bottom 70% of my class during 2L-interview season. He had exactly ONE interview during OCI. He did not get a call back, but he wrote the guy he was interviewing with a few weeks later, stating that he really liked the firm and that he would be interested in coming to work even as a part-time paralegal for the summer. The firm took him up on the offer and hired him in as a summer at $20/hour rather than $3,000/week. At the end of the summer when I and 70% of the people who went biglaw got no-offered, the firm offered a full-associate position in the San Diego office. I understand that this is rare and somewhat unconventional, but the point is opportunity is there if you make of it. BTW, he does not have a Ph.D or any other ridiculous background.

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Ginj
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby Ginj » Tue May 03, 2011 1:12 pm

aliarrow wrote:I am disappoint.

I was really hoping this thread would be by taxguy.


Samesies. :(

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Eviix
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby Eviix » Tue May 03, 2011 1:44 pm

Ginj wrote:
aliarrow wrote:I am disappoint.
I was really hoping this thread would be by taxguy.


Samesies. :(

haha me too

but I do agree with this thread; credibility is rather questionable for some of the information here but I think "Discuss your Law School" is one of the better parts :D especially for applicants who aren't hesitant about the legal field

scammedhard
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby scammedhard » Tue May 03, 2011 1:58 pm

silenttimer wrote:While I understand that the market is tough and jobs are hard to come by, it really irritates me when I read a post from a 0L talking about how impossible it is to get a job if you come out great non-T14 schools (BC, BU, W&M, W&L, Emory, UNC, etc).

Can you please provide a quote when someone has said/written this? I have never seen such a thing. What I have seen is lots of people telling others not to go WITHOUT SUBSTANTIAL SCHOLARSHIP (or in-state tuition, if applicable) to places like Mississippi College, or Cleveland Marshall, or Vermont, or Tulane, or even GWU, etc, etc, etc.

EDIT: Also how do you know all the people providing the advice are 0Ls?

rose711
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby rose711 » Tue May 03, 2011 2:05 pm

You did read the article about how on average less than 50% of graduates get full-time, permanent jobs requiring a JD? And, unless you are clerking for a state supreme court, you are one of them?

People are trying to keep people from ending up in a situation like yours 6 figures of debt and no permanent job. If you think you are in a great position to advise people how to deal with this job market, and how they will be "fine", I would disagree.

To me, your story is one of the examples of what can go wrong in law; a cautionary tale.
Last edited by rose711 on Tue May 03, 2011 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dpk711
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby dpk711 » Tue May 03, 2011 2:08 pm

Egregious Emory trolling.

scammedhard
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby scammedhard » Tue May 03, 2011 2:08 pm

rose711 wrote:You did read the article about how on average less than 50% of graduates get full-time, permanent jobs requiring a JD? And, unless you are clerking for a state supreme court, you are one of them?

People are trying to keep people from ending up in a situation like yours 6 figures of debt and no permanent job. If you think you are in a great position to advise people how to deal with this job market, I would disagree.

To me, your story is one of the examples of what can go wrong in law; a cautionary tale.

Exactly. This dude went to a really good school and he/she ended up "clerking at the state level" with over 100K in debt. Wow, gosh, TLSers are totally out of control!

tittsburghfeelers
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby tittsburghfeelers » Tue May 03, 2011 2:13 pm

rose711 wrote:You did read the article about how on average less than 50% of graduates get full-time, permanent jobs requiring a JD? And, unless you are clerking for a state supreme court, you are one of them?

People are trying to keep people from ending up in a situation like yours 6 figures of debt and no permanent job. If you think you are in a great position to advise people how to deal with this job market, I would disagree.

To me, your story is one of the examples of what can go wrong in law; a cautionary tale.



OUCH, why did OPs post piss you off so much? If OP has 6 figures in debt and is happy about his job prospects, my guess would be that he does have a permanent job and is making enough money to live comfortably enough to maintain a satisfying lifestyle while paying off his loans. No need to slam someone who has been through the law school process already and is simply offering a different perspective than the majority of the negative sentiment that exists on this site.

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AntipodeanPhil
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby AntipodeanPhil » Tue May 03, 2011 2:14 pm

dpk711 wrote:Egregious Emory trolling.

LOL - I made the same assumption.

Still, the OP has valuable information, even if it's only anecdotal. Perhaps especially valuable for those - like me - considering applying to Emory next cycle.

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kwais
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby kwais » Tue May 03, 2011 2:16 pm

tittsburghfeelers wrote:
rose711 wrote:You did read the article about how on average less than 50% of graduates get full-time, permanent jobs requiring a JD? And, unless you are clerking for a state supreme court, you are one of them?

People are trying to keep people from ending up in a situation like yours 6 figures of debt and no permanent job. If you think you are in a great position to advise people how to deal with this job market, I would disagree.

To me, your story is one of the examples of what can go wrong in law; a cautionary tale.



OUCH, why did OPs post piss you off so much? If OP has 6 figures in debt and is happy about his job prospects, my guess would be that he does have a permanent job and is making enough money to live comfortably enough to maintain a satisfying lifestyle while paying off his loans. No need to slam someone who has been through the law school process already and is simply offering a different perspective than the majority of the negative sentiment that exists on this site.


+1 OP offered a fairly middle of the road perspective and is still getting hammered. People need to CTFO

scammedhard
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby scammedhard » Tue May 03, 2011 2:17 pm

AntipodeanPhil wrote:
dpk711 wrote:Egregious Emory trolling.

LOL - I made the same assumption.

Still, the OP has valuable information, even if it's only anecdotal. Perhaps especially valuable for those - like me - considering applying to Emory next cycle.

Yes. We got some valuable info:
n=1
Emory=clerking at the state level with over 100K in debt.

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Grizz
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby Grizz » Tue May 03, 2011 2:19 pm

silenttimer wrote:I look forward to you all joining this great profession.


This great profession?

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Don't act like this horse shit that law school is or that the cut-and-paste horse shit that most lawyers do is somehow ennobling.

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AntipodeanPhil
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby AntipodeanPhil » Tue May 03, 2011 2:21 pm

scammedhard wrote:Yes. We got some valuable info:
n=1
Emory=clerking at the state level with over 100K in debt.

Hey, the OP talked vaguely about his/her friends!

Also, the story about the person who PTed into Biglaw was interesting. Perhaps I'll try that, if I luck out at OCI.

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98234872348
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby 98234872348 » Tue May 03, 2011 2:21 pm

scammedhard wrote:
AntipodeanPhil wrote:
dpk711 wrote:Egregious Emory trolling.

LOL - I made the same assumption.

Still, the OP has valuable information, even if it's only anecdotal. Perhaps especially valuable for those - like me - considering applying to Emory next cycle.

Yes. We got some valuable info:
n=1
Emory=clerking at the state level with over 100K in debt.

Okay, you clerk for two years making 45-55k, then lateral to a firm paying ~80k, you'll probably still be making about 100k 5-6 years out. Granted it's not the best possible outcome, but the debt is manageable in that scenario.

scammedhard
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby scammedhard » Tue May 03, 2011 2:24 pm

AntipodeanPhil wrote:
scammedhard wrote:Yes. We got some valuable info:
n=1
Emory=clerking at the state level with over 100K in debt.

Hey, the OP talked vaguely about his/her friends!

Also, the story about the person who PTed into Biglaw was interesting. Perhaps I'll try that, if I luck out at OCI.

You read this story about Emory students and their wonderful job prospects:
http://abovethelaw.com/2010/07/emory-la ... need-jobs/

username99
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby username99 » Tue May 03, 2011 2:24 pm

Is the GW hate because of cost or prospects? Or both?

scammedhard
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby scammedhard » Tue May 03, 2011 2:28 pm

username99 wrote:Is the GW hate because of cost or prospects? Or both?

Both: the job/salary prospects are not in line with the sticker price.

rose711
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby rose711 » Tue May 03, 2011 3:37 pm

I could have been misreading the article but I think the point is that clerking for a state judge, other than the supreme court, is in no way a definite lateral to a permanent full time job. I think the author distinguished clerking for state courts from clerking for federal courts or state supreme court because people don't those jobs if they could find other full time work. Edit to add the quote I was thinking of:

. (Some of these graduates are temporarily employed as judicial clerks, and, in those cases where the clerkships were with federal courts or state supreme courts, I have treated this as equivalent to permanent full-time legal employment. Such clerkships are difficult to obtain, and considered desirable credentials by legal employers. I have treated state trial court clerkships as genuinely temporary employment, since few law graduates will accept such a clerkship if they have the option of taking a full-time permanent legal job instead. I have excluded the tiny percentage of graduates in state appellate court clerkships altogether, because the desirability of such positions compared to a full-time legal job is ambiguous.)



My observation was based on the statistics in that article. Note that people were claiming that the statistics from the article only applied to a certain school, possibly because of the hiring conditions in Northern California. OP is from a higher ranked school than the one discussed in the article. And still OP does not have a full-time permanent job.

I think that OP is not in a great position to repay that 6-figure debt, despite going to a top-30 school and being top third of the class (without help from a spouse or relative or other person.)

I'm glad OP is happy. I sincerely didn't mean it as a personal attack on OP. I can see that OP has struggled with the pain of being no-offered and now has a full-time, temporary job. That is great for OP. I am sorry if it sounded like a personal attack.

I wanted to clarify that OP's job situation is not optimal and follows exactly what the article was saying regarding less than 45-50% employment rates for full-time, permanent jobs. OP's current job and job search is a good example of why people need to be very careful about taking on 6 figures of debt.

This is the article: http://www.tnr.com/article/87251/law-sc ... georgetown

This is the thread discussing it: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=154102
Last edited by rose711 on Tue May 03, 2011 3:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby DoubleChecks » Tue May 03, 2011 3:44 pm

it seems OP is happy to be where he's at -- good for him. what i dont get his, his post and his story kind of...validate and support the idea behind most of the posts on TLS, no? lol thats what i actually took away from it (he and lots got no-offered, clerking at state, over $100k in debt, etc.).

ppl arent telling TLSers to NOT go to law school outside T14, but rather make informed decisions. once again, im glad OP is happy with his life right now, but the point of TLS is to 'warn' those who would NOT be happy if they ended up in OP's situation. (and by warn i mean do due diligence before committing to a big life decision)

too many ppl read a handful of threads on here for a few days and then make blanket statements about TLS posters in general. ehhh

silenttimer
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Re: My observation about the people on this board

Postby silenttimer » Tue May 03, 2011 6:12 pm

My point is exemplified by the fact that even some people on this thread feels that clerking for a state judge is somehow a waste of a year or that it's not an "ideal" position. This is of course a personal judgment, but I think people on here underestimate the value of a clerkship at the state level. I just want to stress the point that I had made earlier--that perceived-prestige on this Board is out of control. Before claiming that state clerkship is worthless, have you in fact heard from firms that they don't view favorably on a state clerkship?

This is anecdotal as well, but I'm beginning to look for post-clerkship employment now, and have been on 4 interviews (a vault 100 firm, two midsize firms 30-60 attorneys, and a small firm). They all seem interested in a state level clerkship. A friend of mine who graduated in 2009 and clerked fro 2 years at the state level was just hired to a vault 100 firm.

I want to emphasize that you should go to law school if you want to be a lawyer. Find something you are passionate about, learn, do it well, and things will fall your way. This is true despite being in a less than "ideal" position of being $100k in debt with only a measly state clerkship.




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