NLJ 250 cliff

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upyours
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NLJ 250 cliff

Postby upyours » Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:36 pm

After reading through a small portion of TLS I have come to understand that the conciseness of TLS posters is that beyond the NLJ 250 there is a cliff that drops to 60K? Is this correct?

Top 250 firms = 6 figys starting
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Are there 6 figure police after the NLJ 250 that tell firms they can't pay 1st year associates more than 60k?

09042014
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Re: NLJ 250 cliff

Postby 09042014 » Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:42 pm

upyours wrote:After reading through a small portion of TLS I have come to understand that the conciseness of TLS posters is that beyond the NLJ 250 there is a cliff that drops to 60K? Is this correct?

Top 250 firms = 6 figys starting
___________________
l
l
l
l
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l All other firms are <60k
___________________________________


Are there 6 figure police after the NLJ 250 that tell firms they can't pay 1st year associates more than 60k?


NLJ is a terrible method of determining quality of a firm, but it's a fairly good rough estimate for big law. There are plenty of firms that pay 160K that aren't NLJ250, and there are some NLJ250 who probably aren't big law. Boutique firms aren't NLJ250, but they pay well. They aren't exactly big law but they are similar enough.

But midlaw is mostly a myth.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: NLJ 250 cliff

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:53 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
upyours wrote:After reading through a small portion of TLS I have come to understand that the conciseness of TLS posters is that beyond the NLJ 250 there is a cliff that drops to 60K? Is this correct?

Top 250 firms = 6 figys starting
___________________
l
l
l
l
l
l All other firms are <60k
___________________________________


Are there 6 figure police after the NLJ 250 that tell firms they can't pay 1st year associates more than 60k?


NLJ is a terrible method of determining quality of a firm, but it's a fairly good rough estimate for big law. There are plenty of firms that pay 160K that aren't NLJ250, and there are some NLJ250 who probably aren't big law. Boutique firms aren't NLJ250, but they pay well. They aren't exactly big law but they are similar enough.

But midlaw is mostly a myth.


I agree with everything except for the last part. There are many "mid law" firms if mid law is defined as a firm that pays a salary of less than $160,000 but more than $60,000 while simultaneously having less than the required amount of attorneys to be NLJ. Do they hire as many summer associates/full time attorneys as the NLJ firms? Ha no. But they exist and generally hire a few SAs.

09042014
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Re: NLJ 250 cliff

Postby 09042014 » Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:01 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
upyours wrote:After reading through a small portion of TLS I have come to understand that the conciseness of TLS posters is that beyond the NLJ 250 there is a cliff that drops to 60K? Is this correct?

Top 250 firms = 6 figys starting
___________________
l
l
l
l
l
l All other firms are <60k
___________________________________


Are there 6 figure police after the NLJ 250 that tell firms they can't pay 1st year associates more than 60k?


NLJ is a terrible method of determining quality of a firm, but it's a fairly good rough estimate for big law. There are plenty of firms that pay 160K that aren't NLJ250, and there are some NLJ250 who probably aren't big law. Boutique firms aren't NLJ250, but they pay well. They aren't exactly big law but they are similar enough.

But midlaw is mostly a myth.


I agree with everything except for the last part. There are many "mid law" firms if mid law is defined as a firm that pays a salary of less than $160,000 but more than $60,000 while simultaneously having less than the required amount of attorneys to be NLJ. Do they hire as many summer associates/full time attorneys as the NLJ firms? Ha no. But they exist and generally hire a few SAs.


That definition of midlaw is retarded though. Calling the best, largest firm in St Louis mid law is just silly.

Midlaw is supposedly a smaller firm, yet still not small, who pays under market (which varies by city), but isn't as stressful with hours etc.

Nobody, not one person, from Northwestern Class of 09 started off with a salary lower than 120K but higher than 80K. Midlaw is a myth unless you redefine big law into law, which is just semantics.

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nealric
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Re: NLJ 250 cliff

Postby nealric » Sun May 01, 2011 3:54 pm

Top 250 firms = 6 figys starting


A few of the firms in the bottom 50-100 of the NLJ don't pay 6-figures.

bdubs
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Re: NLJ 250 cliff

Postby bdubs » Sun May 01, 2011 5:10 pm

nealric wrote:
Top 250 firms = 6 figys starting


A few of the firms in the bottom 50-100 of the NLJ don't pay 6-figures.


To add to this.

Big <> prestigious/lucrative. There are a few pretty crappy firms in the NLJ 250.

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tea_drinker
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Re: NLJ 250 cliff

Postby tea_drinker » Sun May 01, 2011 7:17 pm

upyours wrote:After reading through a small portion of TLS I have come to understand that the conciseness of TLS posters is that beyond the NLJ 250 there is a cliff that drops to 60K? Is this correct?

Top 250 firms = 6 figys starting
___________________
l
l
l
l
l
l All other firms are <60k
___________________________________


Are there 6 figure police after the NLJ 250 that tell firms they can't pay 1st year associates more than 60k?



Just want to say I like your screen name :mrgreen:

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nealric
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Re: NLJ 250 cliff

Postby nealric » Sun May 01, 2011 8:04 pm

Big <> prestigious/lucrative. There are a few pretty crappy firms in the NLJ 250.


Indeed- there are a few insurance defense mills in there.

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RVP11
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Re: NLJ 250 cliff

Postby RVP11 » Mon May 02, 2011 2:15 pm

Desert Fox wrote: there are some NLJ250 who probably aren't big law.


Everyone always says this. No one names names.

I see a lot of national BigLaw and regional BigLaw, and then a bunch of firms I don't know.

I'd bet that there aren't more than 15-20 insurance defense (or "crappy") firms in the NLJ250, and they're all at the bottom end of it. See here:

--LinkRemoved-- (old)

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RVP11
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Re: NLJ 250 cliff

Postby RVP11 » Mon May 02, 2011 2:28 pm

nealric wrote:
Top 250 firms = 6 figys starting


A few of the firms in the bottom 50-100 of the NLJ don't pay 6-figures.


They also aren't in expensive cities, though. A lot of firms in the South and Midwest down there.

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Gecko of Doom
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Re: NLJ 250 cliff

Postby Gecko of Doom » Mon May 02, 2011 2:35 pm

.
Last edited by Gecko of Doom on Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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98234872348
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Re: NLJ 250 cliff

Postby 98234872348 » Mon May 02, 2011 2:35 pm

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Last edited by 98234872348 on Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

JD2014
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Re: NLJ 250 cliff

Postby JD2014 » Mon May 02, 2011 3:26 pm

A list of all the NLJ250 firms and their starting salaries can be found here: http://www.ilrg.com/nlj250/Salary_High/asc

Infirmation probably isn't the least reliable salary database out there: http://www.infirmation.com/shared/insider/payscale.tcl

Vault would probably also be helpful, though I think it requires an account.

Most of these firms pay between $120 and $160. However, those that pay less tend to be in downmarkets. For example $73,000 from Jackson Kelley probably goes reasonably far in Charleston, West Virginia.

If anyone has a LOT of time on their hands, they could make a list of every office of every NLJ 250 firm, find the number of attorneys in every office and and compare it to either an average cost of living in that city or to the median wage in that city to arrive at more nuanced data about attorney salaries.

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ahduth
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Re: NLJ 250 cliff

Postby ahduth » Mon May 02, 2011 3:59 pm

I am confused and frightened by this entire line of questioning. Are we saying the NLJ250 is relevant somehow?

bdubs
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Re: NLJ 250 cliff

Postby bdubs » Mon May 02, 2011 4:00 pm

I find OP's tar oddly unsettling

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RVP11
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Re: NLJ 250 cliff

Postby RVP11 » Mon May 02, 2011 4:32 pm

ahduth wrote:Are we saying the NLJ250 is relevant somehow?


It's the listing of the 250 largest American law firms. How is that not relevant?

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AreJay711
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Re: NLJ 250 cliff

Postby AreJay711 » Mon May 02, 2011 4:35 pm

Actually, something like half of all starting salaries are between 120 and 60 K but people just don't understand how it adds up. It is bimodal though and likely large firms in smaller markets rather than "midlaw".

dooood
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Re: NLJ 250 cliff

Postby dooood » Mon May 02, 2011 4:42 pm

bdubs wrote:I find OP's tar oddly unsettling

seriously, what is that all about

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: NLJ 250 cliff

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Mon May 02, 2011 5:04 pm

Gecko of Doom wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:That definition of midlaw is retarded though. Calling the best, largest firm in St Louis mid law is just silly.

Uh, Bryan Cave? Definitely in the top 250. That wouldn't fit Aberzombie's definition.


Yeah I don't understand why it's retarded either. Maybe he only read the first part and assumed he knew what the rest of it said?

SupraVln180
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Re: NLJ 250 cliff

Postby SupraVln180 » Mon May 02, 2011 10:28 pm

MidLaw does exist, but like everyone else said, they are few and far between.


Example of MidLaw in NYC.
---> Carter, Ledyard & Milburn: http://www.clm.com/

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niederbomb
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Re: NLJ 250 cliff

Postby niederbomb » Mon May 02, 2011 11:10 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
upyours wrote:After reading through a small portion of TLS I have come to understand that the conciseness of TLS posters is that beyond the NLJ 250 there is a cliff that drops to 60K? Is this correct?

Top 250 firms = 6 figys starting
___________________
l
l
l
l
l
l All other firms are <60k
___________________________________


Are there 6 figure police after the NLJ 250 that tell firms they can't pay 1st year associates more than 60k?


NLJ is a terrible method of determining quality of a firm, but it's a fairly good rough estimate for big law. There are plenty of firms that pay 160K that aren't NLJ250, and there are some NLJ250 who probably aren't big law. Boutique firms aren't NLJ250, but they pay well. They aren't exactly big law but they are similar enough.

But midlaw is mostly a myth.


In some regional markets (such as Minnesota, TX, Florida), anecdotal evidence suggests that many of the top firms are non-NLJ 250 firms that pay a salary more than $60,000 and less than $160,000. However, on the coasts (most of TLS is coast-centric), there is much less need for Midlaw and, thus, it is rare.

The chart that everyone cites to supposedly prove the "bimodal" distribution of salaries is a little misleading because the "spike" at $160,000 is due to the top firms matching offers whereas the area in-between has more variation, so it looks like it involves fewer firms, even though it doesn't.

09042014
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Re: NLJ 250 cliff

Postby 09042014 » Mon May 02, 2011 11:39 pm

niederbomb wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
upyours wrote:After reading through a small portion of TLS I have come to understand that the conciseness of TLS posters is that beyond the NLJ 250 there is a cliff that drops to 60K? Is this correct?

Top 250 firms = 6 figys starting
___________________
l
l
l
l
l
l All other firms are <60k
___________________________________


Are there 6 figure police after the NLJ 250 that tell firms they can't pay 1st year associates more than 60k?


NLJ is a terrible method of determining quality of a firm, but it's a fairly good rough estimate for big law. There are plenty of firms that pay 160K that aren't NLJ250, and there are some NLJ250 who probably aren't big law. Boutique firms aren't NLJ250, but they pay well. They aren't exactly big law but they are similar enough.

But midlaw is mostly a myth.


In some regional markets (such as Minnesota, TX, Florida), anecdotal evidence suggests that many of the top firms are non-NLJ 250 firms that pay a salary more than $60,000 and less than $160,000. However, on the coasts (most of TLS is coast-centric), there is much less need for Midlaw and, thus, it is rare.

The chart that everyone cites to supposedly prove the "bimodal" distribution of salaries is a little misleading because the "spike" at $160,000 is due to the top firms matching offers whereas the area in-between has more variation, so it looks like it involves fewer firms, even though it doesn't.


Dude getting 130K in Minneapolis is big law. So is 145K in chicago.

Mid law would like that firm Carter, or whatever that someone posted earlier.

Like I said nobody in NW c/o made more than 80 yet less than 120K. Mid law is mostly myth.

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: NLJ 250 cliff

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Mon May 02, 2011 11:49 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Dude getting 130K in Minneapolis is big law. So is 145K in chicago.

Mid law would like that firm Carter, or whatever that someone posted earlier.

Like I said nobody in NW c/o made more than 80 yet less than 120K. Mid law is mostly myth.

Second this. Only a couple markets (DC, NYC, Chicago?) go up to 160. Atlanta/Miami firms who pay 130 are still biglaw, firms in even smaller cities (Orlando/Tampa/Birmingham) who starts 90-120 are still respectively biglaw for their area because they're the highest paying and the most prestigious work for their respective area.

I've seen a good handful of firms with 20-40 lawyers who are "midlaw", and even applied at a handful for this summer. But their stake in the hiring field is incredibly small.

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niederbomb
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Re: NLJ 250 cliff

Postby niederbomb » Tue May 03, 2011 12:05 am

Mickey Quicknumbers wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Dude getting 130K in Minneapolis is big law. So is 145K in chicago.

Mid law would like that firm Carter, or whatever that someone posted earlier.

Like I said nobody in NW c/o made more than 80 yet less than 120K. Mid law is mostly myth.

Second this. Only a couple markets (DC, NYC, Chicago?) go up to 160. Atlanta/Miami firms who pay 130 are still biglaw, firms in even smaller cities (Orlando/Tampa/Birmingham) who starts 90-120 are still respectively biglaw for their area because they're the highest paying and the most prestigious work for their respective area.

I've seen a good handful of firms with 20-40 lawyers who are "midlaw", and even applied at a handful for this summer. But their stake in the hiring field is incredibly small.


If this is the definition of Big Law, then it makes more sense. Cutting both ways, NLJ 250 =! Big Law.

My cousin in Philly graduated from one of the lousy schools in Florida. She now works at an NLJ 250 firm doing some sort of lousy job. I'm not sure they even consider her a lawyer or some kind of paralegal.

Also, I have a friend recently graduated from Cornell who works in a small city in the South who works for a local firm with about 20 lawyers who makes $80,000/year (it involvesoil money, so maybe it's really not typical). Thus, the legal market is much more complicated than people make it out to be.

EDIT: I looked at her letter, and she didn't say it was "contract" work, so I won't make any assumptions.




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