Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

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Capitol A
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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby Capitol A » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:52 pm

scammedhard wrote:
Capitol A wrote:I can't argue with your points. I am however rather hesitant to push for regulation of a product or service that people are voluntarily buying, and that is not a life/death decision. Particularly when the truth is available if one is willing to do the research. Market forces may eventually cause schools to be more honest if prospective students were more demanding of transperancy. At this point, sites like LST are making the information available for those intelligent enough to seek it out. I think LST is doing the right thing by putting pressure on the schools and encouraging students to do the same.

Sorry to jump in, but I take issue with you point. The truth is not available. LST helps, but it is also incomplete. Can you be kind enough to tell me where I can do this research? What is the site/journal/etc that disseminates accurate, transparent data regarding employment prospects for particular schools?
I, and others, are not asking the ABA to force schools to close, at least not yet. I believe the market will take care of the problem. We just want the ABA, as the designated regulator of legal education in the US, to force schools to provide basic consumer information and stop them from presenting "massaged" employment data because that, to me, constitutes false representation of facts.

A reasonable person can make reasonable assumptions about the gaps in LST data. There was a brief discussion of this on page 1 of this thread. Again, the fact that the ABA currently regulates legal education doesn't mean that they have to (1) continue, (2) increase/expand regulation.

Capitol A
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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby Capitol A » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:54 pm

scammedhard wrote:
Capitol A wrote:
scammedhard wrote:I also think law schools should more regulated because their product has direct public implications. After all, do you want a bunch of awful, incompetent lawyers running around? Like Joseph Rakofsky?

Market forces can force awful lawyers to stop practicing due to lack of clients.

Yes, but only after they caused some harm...
Well, I believe we have discovered that we have a fundemental difference in the way we believe the world (or at least this Country) ought to run. The discussion of these differences is far to vast for the purposes of this thread.

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Stringer Bell
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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby Stringer Bell » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:54 pm

I have a libertarian lean for a lot of things, but I think markets function better when people make informed decisions. Requiring schools which are only in business due to government subsidized loans to provide accurate and pertinent employment statistics isn't violating some fundamental right.

scammedhard
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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby scammedhard » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:59 pm

Capitol A wrote:A reasonable person can make reasonable assumptions about the gaps in LST data. There was a brief discussion of this on page 1 of this thread. Again, the fact that the ABA currently regulates legal education doesn't mean that they have to (1) continue, (2) increase/expand regulation.

Yes. But why rely on assumptions when that data can be easily provided? Again, where are not asking for much here, just the truth, and when there is misrepresentation, there should be penalties.

Capitol A
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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby Capitol A » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:02 pm

Stringer Bell wrote:I have a libertarian lean for a lot of things, but I think markets function better when people make informed decisions. Requiring schools which are only in business due to government subsidized loans to provide accurate and pertinent employment statistics isn't violating some fundamental right.

hmmm...you actually make a really strong point re: their business depends on government subsidized loans. As a libertarian, isn't the point that the loans should not be subsidized by the government? This clearly creates an increase in tuition prices, among MANY other problems.
Also-if students stopped attending dishonest schools and/or schools which with hold pertinent information, wouldn't that drastically decrease the amount of money that schools receive (from loans or otherwise)?

Capitol A
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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby Capitol A » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:03 pm

scammedhard wrote:
Capitol A wrote:A reasonable person can make reasonable assumptions about the gaps in LST data. There was a brief discussion of this on page 1 of this thread. Again, the fact that the ABA currently regulates legal education doesn't mean that they have to (1) continue, (2) increase/expand regulation.

Yes. But why rely on assumptions when that data can be easily provided? Again, where are not asking for much here, just the truth, and when there is misrepresentation, there should be penalties.

With this, I whole heartedly agree.

scammedhard
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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby scammedhard » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:05 pm

Capitol A wrote:
Stringer Bell wrote:I have a libertarian lean for a lot of things, but I think markets function better when people make informed decisions. Requiring schools which are only in business due to government subsidized loans to provide accurate and pertinent employment statistics isn't violating some fundamental right.

hmmm...you actually make a really strong point re: their business depends on government subsidized loans. As a libertarian, isn't the point that the loans should not be subsidized by the government? This clearly creates an increase in tuition prices, among MANY other problems.
Also-if students stopped attending dishonest schools and/or schools which with hold pertinent information, wouldn't that drastically decrease the amount of money that schools receive (from loans or otherwise)?

I personally believe that there should not be federal gov student loans. All should be private AND eligible for cancellation during bankruptcy, but that's another thread.

Capitol A
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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby Capitol A » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:09 pm

scammedhard wrote:
Capitol A wrote:
Stringer Bell wrote:I have a libertarian lean for a lot of things, but I think markets function better when people make informed decisions. Requiring schools which are only in business due to government subsidized loans to provide accurate and pertinent employment statistics isn't violating some fundamental right.

hmmm...you actually make a really strong point re: their business depends on government subsidized loans. As a libertarian, isn't the point that the loans should not be subsidized by the government? This clearly creates an increase in tuition prices, among MANY other problems.
Also-if students stopped attending dishonest schools and/or schools which with hold pertinent information, wouldn't that drastically decrease the amount of money that schools receive (from loans or otherwise)?

I personally believe that there should not be federal gov student loans. All should be private AND eligible for cancellation during bankruptcy, but that's another thread.

Maybe we're not so different after all.

aliarrow
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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby aliarrow » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:11 pm

Bro hug

scammedhard
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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby scammedhard » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:19 pm

Capitol A wrote:Maybe we're not so different after all.

And why did you think we were?
These law school problems, and the whole higher education with outrageous, unchecked costs with few benefits, have been largely created by the federal government. Students loans are the lifeblood of the system and, because schools get paid upfront, create an incentive to open as many diploma mills as possible.
Anyhow, best luck to you...

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bk1
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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby bk1 » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:22 pm

scammedhard wrote:
bk1 wrote:
scammedhard wrote:What is the site/journal/etc that disseminates accurate, transparent data regarding employment prospects for particular schools?


I think paid subscrip to USNWR online is the est you can do.

And isn't that sad. A for-profit MAGAZINE is what gives prospective law students the "best" data. Data that affects how they spend up to 250K for a product.


I think it's sad that USNWR hides it behind an online paywall, though I don't think it is necessarily sad that a for-profit provides the best data.

Capitol A
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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby Capitol A » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:31 pm

scammedhard wrote:
Capitol A wrote:Maybe we're not so different after all.

And why did you think we were?
These law school problems, and the whole higher education with outrageous, unchecked costs with few benefits, have been largely created by the federal government. Students loans are the lifeblood of the system and, because schools get paid upfront, create an incentive to open as many diploma mills as possible.
Anyhow, best luck to you...

Based on some of your previous posts i'm surprised you have this view, that's all. You are 100% correct on this point. Same goes for government backed home loans, but that is definitely a different thread.

Capitol A
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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby Capitol A » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:32 pm

scammedhard wrote:
Capitol A wrote:Maybe we're not so different after all.

And why did you think we were?
These law school problems, and the whole higher education with outrageous, unchecked costs with few benefits, have been largely created by the federal government. Students loans are the lifeblood of the system and, because schools get paid upfront, create an incentive to open as many diploma mills as possible.
Anyhow, best luck to you...

And best of luck to you as well.
I think I'm pretty well set. I'm going to attend the University of Phoenix online JD/MBA program. It's only going to cost me like $120k over the next 3 yrs.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby DoubleChecks » Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:51 pm

Capitol A wrote:
scammedhard wrote:
Capitol A wrote:Maybe we're not so different after all.

And why did you think we were?
These law school problems, and the whole higher education with outrageous, unchecked costs with few benefits, have been largely created by the federal government. Students loans are the lifeblood of the system and, because schools get paid upfront, create an incentive to open as many diploma mills as possible.
Anyhow, best luck to you...

Based on some of your previous posts i'm surprised you have this view, that's all. You are 100% correct on this point. Same goes for government backed home loans, but that is definitely a different thread.


aw man, i want some of this brah luv, i support this too! lol

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nOO law
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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby nOO law » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:55 pm

Capitol A wrote:
scammedhard wrote:
Capitol A wrote:Maybe we're not so different after all.

And why did you think we were?
These law school problems, and the whole higher education with outrageous, unchecked costs with few benefits, have been largely created by the federal government. Students loans are the lifeblood of the system and, because schools get paid upfront, create an incentive to open as many diploma mills as possible.
Anyhow, best luck to you...

And best of luck to you as well.
I think I'm pretty well set. I'm going to attend the University of Phoenix online JD/MBA program. It's only going to cost me like $120k over the next 3 yrs.



:shock:

UoP has a 3yr JD/MBA!

*checks online for app deadline*

Capitol A
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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby Capitol A » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:07 pm

nOO law wrote:
Capitol A wrote:
scammedhard wrote:
Capitol A wrote:Maybe we're not so different after all.

And why did you think we were?
These law school problems, and the whole higher education with outrageous, unchecked costs with few benefits, have been largely created by the federal government. Students loans are the lifeblood of the system and, because schools get paid upfront, create an incentive to open as many diploma mills as possible.
Anyhow, best luck to you...

And best of luck to you as well.
I think I'm pretty well set. I'm going to attend the University of Phoenix online JD/MBA program. It's only going to cost me like $120k over the next 3 yrs.



:shock:

UoP has a 3yr JD/MBA!

*checks online for app deadline*

Yeah. I ED'd. Just got in off the priority waitlist.

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nOO law
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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby nOO law » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:27 pm

Capitol A wrote:Yeah. I ED'd. Just got in off the priority waitlist.


Damn, now all you have to do is figure out how to manage all the models and bottles.

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romothesavior
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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby romothesavior » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:36 pm

Re-take. All of you.

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nOO law
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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby nOO law » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:40 pm

romothesavior wrote:Re-take. All of you.


:roll:

You dont understand my circumstances... I have full ride scholarship with a top 1% stip. Plus, UoP is well known in my secondary market.

NoJob
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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby NoJob » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:51 pm

Bravo to OP!

Unfortunately, short of government regulation, I don't see the law schools properly disclosing their employment stats.

A simple fix would be stipulating accurate reporting to the BLS in accordance with privacy laws for continued access to federal education money.

Stringer Bell makes a great point.

Capitol A
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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby Capitol A » Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:00 pm

nOO law wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Re-take. All of you.


:roll:

You dont understand my circumstances... I have full ride scholarship with a top 1% stip. Plus, UoP is well known in my secondary market.

Plus they are top 10 in international animal law, which is definitely where I see myself practicing.

Capitol A
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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby Capitol A » Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:01 pm

romothesavior wrote:Re-take. All of you.

I did. Didn't you read where I said I got in to University of Phoenix?

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:31 pm

Capitol A wrote:
nOO law wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Re-take. All of you.


:roll:

You dont understand my circumstances... I have full ride scholarship with a top 1% stip. Plus, UoP is well known in my secondary market.

Plus they are top 10 in international animal law, which is definitely where I see myself practicing.


Screw that. I'm in international sports human rights law. I wield dual law school certificates in sports law and international law and I plan on getting an LLM simultaneously in both topics (sports LLM full time and international LLM part time). I want to represent disadvantaged international athletes.

blsingindisguise
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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby blsingindisguise » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:52 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
Screw that. I'm in international sports human rights law. I wield dual law school certificates in sports law and international law and I plan on getting an LLM simultaneously in both topics (sports LLM full time and international LLM part time). I want to represent disadvantaged international athletes.


Are you mocking the plight of Rwandan Jai Alai players?

No, seriously though, i find it a bit frustrating how many people stick their fingers in their ears and hum "WEEE ALREADY KNEW THIS LALALALALA." I mean, really? I've been a law school skeptic for a few years and I didn't know the numbers were THIS bad. 45% in legit full-time legal employment 9 months out folks. That includes legal aid, insurance defense firms starting at $40K, etc., not just NLJ 250 firms. And don't get all smug and chalk it up to the Cooleys and Peoples' Colleges -- there are only 198 accredited law schools at all, and it's clearly not the case that the bottom 110 schools are at 100% unemployment, so significant numbers of tier 1 and tier 2 grads aren't getting jobs.

Besides, if you'd read the article, you'd see that the numbers are, in fact, pretty new, because they're based on USNews's newly revised data methods (just last month, apparently). So this is not "old news" at all. Yes, we all knew the numbers were massaged, but it was pretty difficult to find out how and to what extent before now.

AND FURTHER, the class of 2011 stats are only going to be worse -- remember that '11 was the first class to have OCI recruiting take place after the bloodbath.

If you've made your mind up about law school already you're going to justify it to yourself, and I guess you might as well do so. If you haven't, think a little harder and don't be a Polylanna.

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bk1
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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby bk1 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:02 pm

blsingindisguise wrote:No, seriously though, i find it a bit frustrating how many people stick their fingers in their ears and hum "WEEE ALREADY KNEW THIS LALALALALA." I mean, really? I've been a law school skeptic for a few years and I didn't know the numbers were THIS bad. 45% in legit full-time legal employment 9 months out folks. That includes legal aid, insurance defense firms starting at $40K, etc., not just NLJ 250 firms. And don't get all smug and chalk it up to the Cooleys and Peoples' Colleges -- there are only 198 accredited law schools at all, and it's clearly not the case that the bottom 110 schools are at 100% unemployment, so significant numbers of tier 1 and tier 2 grads aren't getting jobs.


The 45% is for a single school, presumably either Davis or Hastings. Prior to seeing the 2009 data I didn't realize it was that bad either (at least for NorCal specifically), but it makes sense and kind of bears out that NorCal is far worse off than the rest of the country (look at the 2009 data then compare Davis/Hastings to their peers and compare SCU/USF to their peers and it shows it pretty clearly).

I'm not trying to say things are rosy, but at least read it correctly.




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