Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

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Strange
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Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby Strange » Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:25 pm

--LinkRemoved--


This month, thousands of ambitious young people are asking themselves the same question: Does it make sense to invest $100,000 to $250,000, and the next three years of my life, to become officially qualified to work as a lawyer? For most people considering law school, this question is hardly an easy one. Law schools, however, make it much harder than it needs to be by publishing misleading data about their employment statistics. Many law schools all but explicitly promise that, within a few months of graduation, practically all their graduates will obtain jobs as lawyers, by trumpeting employment figures of 95 percent, 97 percent, and even 99.8 percent. The truth is that less than half will.

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bk1
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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:27 pm

WHAT?!

aliarrow
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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby aliarrow » Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:28 pm

bk1 wrote:WHAT?!


Quoted and bolded for emphasis

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powerlawyer06
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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby powerlawyer06 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:29 pm

Law schools lie about employment data? This is news to me. I better go change my life plan accordingly.

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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:31 pm

powerlawyer06 wrote:Law schools lie about employment data? This is news to me. I better go change my life plan accordingly.

It may not be news, but the article does a pretty good job of explaining how they do it.

Thanks OP, good find.

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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:33 pm

romothesavior wrote:It may not be news, but the article does a pretty good job of explaining how they do it.

Thanks OP, good find.


I'm actually reading it because you said this. And I agree, it's pretty good.

What I don't get is why it has Harvard-Yale in the link's URL. To get more hits?

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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:47 pm

bk1 wrote:I'm actually reading it because you said this. And I agree, it's pretty good.

The most shocking conclusion made in the article is that well less than 50% of 2010 graduates found full-time, permanent employment that requires a J.D. That is downright appalling.

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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby aliarrow » Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:48 pm

romothesavior wrote:
bk1 wrote:I'm actually reading it because you said this. And I agree, it's pretty good.

The most shocking conclusion made in the article is that well less than 50% of law school graduates found full-time, permanent employment that requires a J.D. That is downright appalling.


Of one T50 school. I'm pretty confident its a not-so-great Cali school.

Not that I think this would be that much of a stretch for the other schools.

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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:49 pm

romothesavior wrote:The most shocking conclusion made in the article is that well less than 50% of law school graduates found full-time, permanent employment that requires a J.D. That is downright appalling.


I was also a bit shocked by the fact that he found people who stretched the truth and said they were full time when they were really part time, though in retrospect I shouldn't really have been surprised by that.

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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby northwood » Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:49 pm

romothesavior wrote:
powerlawyer06 wrote:Law schools lie about employment data? This is news to me. I better go change my life plan accordingly.

It may not be news, but the article does a pretty good job of explaining how they do it.

Thanks OP, good find.



good find op- and great job posting the link in the cleveland marshall or mississippi college thread romo.

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romothesavior
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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:49 pm

aliarrow wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
bk1 wrote:I'm actually reading it because you said this. And I agree, it's pretty good.

The most shocking conclusion made in the article is that well less than 50% of law school graduates found full-time, permanent employment that requires a J.D. That is downright appalling.


Of one T50 school. I'm pretty confident its a not-so-great Cali school.

Not that I think this would be that much of a stretch for the other schools.

It may be for one T50 school, but that T50 probably has better job stats than at least 100 other law schools.

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bk1
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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:50 pm

aliarrow wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
bk1 wrote:I'm actually reading it because you said this. And I agree, it's pretty good.

The most shocking conclusion made in the article is that well less than 50% of law school graduates found full-time, permanent employment that requires a J.D. That is downright appalling.


Of one T50 school. I'm pretty confident its a not-so-great Cali school.

Not that I think this would be that much of a stretch for the other schools.


Why must CA be so bumfucked? And yeah it is probably either Davis or Hastings.

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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby powerlawyer06 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:53 pm

The reason why I am underwhelmed by the article is because I feel like every TLS user has heard this one million times. We are all more informed than the average law school applicant. I feel like this is a dead horse we are beating.

Posting another "law schools lie" article on TLS is like going into a christian church and saying "Have you guys heard about this Jesus guy?"

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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby DoubleChecks » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:02 pm

powerlawyer06 wrote:The reason why I am underwhelmed by the article is because I feel like every TLS user has heard this one million times. We are all more informed than the average law school applicant. I feel like this is a dead horse we are beating.

Posting another "law schools lie" article on TLS is like going into a christian church and saying "Have you guys heard about this Jesus guy?"


The idea of course is known, but I liked the short article on how they do it. It also gives me some catchy concrete %'s I can now throw around, like how only 62.9% of law school graduates are doing full time legal work according to NALP data...and how possibly ~45% or less of them are actually doing full time legal work if you take into account liars/temporary full time workers. lol

I've heard of so many sketchy law practices it's funny, like how some hound students who graduated at the top of their class for employment stats but snail mail once to those in the bottom.

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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby Capitol A » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:07 pm

I believe that this is important information, and that there are probably a lot of people that still think a law degree (ANY law degree) is a ticket to fame and fortune. Those people would definitely benefit from a wake up call before taking on hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt pursuing a path in which the odds are stacked against them ever securing gainful employment.
All this being said, I don't think I have a similar reaction to this type of info that most TLSers seem to. You see a lot of TLS posts that say things like: "If you attend school X you only have a 1 in 10 chance at BigLaw" as if there is some type of raffle at the school to determine who gets the 'good' jobs. It doesn't work like that. This same logic would have given the same advice to me and to George Clooney regarding pursuing careers in acting: "don't do it. You have a 1 in a million chance of actually making money." When the truth is that he is talented and good looking. I, on the other hand am just good looking-no talent. So we don't each have an equal shot as in the case of some type of lottery system.
My point is, if you are going to Cooley or to Phoenix SOL, you are making a terrible investment; but if you are going to Ohio State, or Alabama, or some other mid-range T50 where they are realistically putting 40% or so of their grads into full time legal employment, then it is at least in part up to you, and your talent and your work ethic to determine whether you are in the group that makes the school proud or you are in the group that they report as being employed even though you are walking behind the elephants at the local circus. No one is going to hand you anything on a silver platter or write you check just because you have a JD, but if you are willing to bust your butt to ensure you are a standout perfomer in class and in your internships/externships etc. Some people are getting good jobs, and you can be one of those people.

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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby Capitol A » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:11 pm

powerlawyer06 wrote:The reason why I am underwhelmed by the article is because I feel like every TLS user has heard this one million times. We are all more informed than the average law school applicant. I feel like this is a dead horse we are beating.

Posting another "law schools lie" article on TLS is like going into a christian church and saying "Have you guys heard about this Jesus guy?"

Now that's funny.
DoubleChecks wrote:
powerlawyer06 wrote:The reason why I am underwhelmed by the article is because I feel like every TLS user has heard this one million times. We are all more informed than the average law school applicant. I feel like this is a dead horse we are beating.

Posting another "law schools lie" article on TLS is like going into a christian church and saying "Have you guys heard about this Jesus guy?"


The idea of course is known, but I liked the short article on how they do it. It also gives me some catchy concrete %'s I can now throw around, like how only 62.9% of law school graduates are doing full time legal work according to NALP data...and how possibly ~45% or less of them are actually doing full time legal work if you take into account liars/temporary full time workers. lol

I've heard of so many sketchy law practices it's funny, like how some hound students who graduated at the top of their class for employment stats but snail mail once to those in the bottom.

You make some really good points, but wouldn't you say that most TLS users would tell you that at least 45% of all law schools are dog sh*t and not worth attending? So based on that, it's not really surprising that 45% of all grads aren't working in law. People are on here saying don't attend anything outside the t14 or at least T50. There are over 200 accredited law schools. Based on these numbers there are a lot of people graduating from schools 51-200 and getting jobs when most of TLS would have told them that they were wasting their time and money by going to school at all.

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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby DoubleChecks » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:13 pm

Capitol A wrote:
powerlawyer06 wrote:The reason why I am underwhelmed by the article is because I feel like every TLS user has heard this one million times. We are all more informed than the average law school applicant. I feel like this is a dead horse we are beating.

Posting another "law schools lie" article on TLS is like going into a christian church and saying "Have you guys heard about this Jesus guy?"

Now that's funny.
DoubleChecks wrote:
powerlawyer06 wrote:The reason why I am underwhelmed by the article is because I feel like every TLS user has heard this one million times. We are all more informed than the average law school applicant. I feel like this is a dead horse we are beating.

Posting another "law schools lie" article on TLS is like going into a christian church and saying "Have you guys heard about this Jesus guy?"


The idea of course is known, but I liked the short article on how they do it. It also gives me some catchy concrete %'s I can now throw around, like how only 62.9% of law school graduates are doing full time legal work according to NALP data...and how possibly ~45% or less of them are actually doing full time legal work if you take into account liars/temporary full time workers. lol

I've heard of so many sketchy law practices it's funny, like how some hound students who graduated at the top of their class for employment stats but snail mail once to those in the bottom.

You make some really good points, but wouldn't you say that most TLS users would tell you that at least 45% of all law schools are dog sh*t and not worth attending? So based on that, it's not really surprising that 45% of all grads aren't working in law. People are on here saying don't attend anything outside the t14 or at least T50. There are over 200 accredited law schools. Based on these numbers there are a lot of people graduating from schools 51-200 and getting jobs when most of TLS would have told them that they were wasting their time and money by going to school at all.


Sure, but I'm just saying it is nice to have a semblance of facts/data to base it on. The more the merrier. It's like someone walking into a Christian Church and saying, "Dude, I found Christ's tomb and there ain't no body!"

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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:17 pm

powerlawyer06 wrote:The reason why I am underwhelmed by the article is because I feel like every TLS user has heard this one million times. We are all more informed than the average law school applicant. I feel like this is a dead horse we are beating.

Posting another "law schools lie" article on TLS is like going into a christian church and saying "Have you guys heard about this Jesus guy?"

No, actually it's not. That'd be like reading an article talking about some breakthrough in evolutionary biology and saying, "Ugh, evolution is so old news. This is like beating a dead horse!"

I'm probably one of the most pessimistic on TLS re: job prospects for law students, and these numbers even shock (and scare) me. I knew that high paying jobs are scarce. I've knew that legal employment is tough. But 50% of law school graduates or less getting real, full-time legal jobs? That's pretty crazy. Also, yes, the article's main conclusion (law schools number fudge) isn't new. But it does a better job of showing how than I've seen before, and it also does a really good job of breaking apart the most recent NALP data.

So while you're right that this is an old subject of conversation around here, it is a new perspective with some new numbers, so it is not at all beating a dead horse.

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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby Capitol A » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:22 pm

romothesavior wrote:
powerlawyer06 wrote:The reason why I am underwhelmed by the article is because I feel like every TLS user has heard this one million times. We are all more informed than the average law school applicant. I feel like this is a dead horse we are beating.

Posting another "law schools lie" article on TLS is like going into a christian church and saying "Have you guys heard about this Jesus guy?"

No, actually it's not. That'd be like reading an article talking about some breakthrough in evolutionary biology and saying, "Ugh, evolution is so old news. This is like beating a dead horse!"

I'm probably one of the most pessimistic on TLS re: job prospects for law students, and these numbers even shock (and scare) me. I knew that high paying jobs are scarce. I've knew that legal employment is tough. But 50% of law school graduates or less getting real, full-time legal jobs? That's pretty crazy. Also, yes, the article's main conclusion (law schools number fudge) isn't new. But it does a better job of showing how than I've seen before, and it also does a really good job of breaking apart the most recent NALP data.

So while you're right that this is an old subject of conversation around here, it is a new perspective with some new numbers, so it is not at all beating a dead horse.


Sure, but I'm just saying it is nice to have a semblance of facts/data to base it on. The more the merrier. It's like someone walking into a Christian Church and saying, "Dude, I found Christ's tomb and there ain't no body!"


Sounds like you're both sort of saying the same things...Yes this is an old concept, but nice interesting to have better/new hard evidence.

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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby aliarrow » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:23 pm

romothesavior wrote:
powerlawyer06 wrote:The reason why I am underwhelmed by the article is because I feel like every TLS user has heard this one million times. We are all more informed than the average law school applicant. I feel like this is a dead horse we are beating.

Posting another "law schools lie" article on TLS is like going into a christian church and saying "Have you guys heard about this Jesus guy?"

No, actually it's not. That'd be like reading an article talking about some breakthrough in evolutionary biology and saying, "Ugh, evolution is so old news. This is like beating a dead horse!"

I'm probably one of the most pessimistic on TLS re: job prospects for law students, and these numbers even shock (and scare) me. I knew that high paying jobs are scarce. I've knew that legal employment is tough. But 50% of law school graduates or less getting real, full-time legal jobs? That's pretty crazy. Also, yes, the article's main conclusion (law schools number fudge) isn't new. But it does a better job of showing how than I've seen before, and it also does a really good job of breaking apart the most recent NALP data.

So while you're right that this is an old subject of conversation around here, it is a new perspective with some new numbers, so it is not at all beating a dead horse.


Would you really be that surprised to learn someone at Median at say Cardozo or UC Hastings isn't working in a full time legal job?
That's why I don't think this is that shocking, it just phrases things differently and uses a different approach.

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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby DoubleChecks » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:24 pm

Capitol A wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
powerlawyer06 wrote:The reason why I am underwhelmed by the article is because I feel like every TLS user has heard this one million times. We are all more informed than the average law school applicant. I feel like this is a dead horse we are beating.

Posting another "law schools lie" article on TLS is like going into a christian church and saying "Have you guys heard about this Jesus guy?"

No, actually it's not. That'd be like reading an article talking about some breakthrough in evolutionary biology and saying, "Ugh, evolution is so old news. This is like beating a dead horse!"

I'm probably one of the most pessimistic on TLS re: job prospects for law students, and these numbers even shock (and scare) me. I knew that high paying jobs are scarce. I've knew that legal employment is tough. But 50% of law school graduates or less getting real, full-time legal jobs? That's pretty crazy. Also, yes, the article's main conclusion (law schools number fudge) isn't new. But it does a better job of showing how than I've seen before, and it also does a really good job of breaking apart the most recent NALP data.

So while you're right that this is an old subject of conversation around here, it is a new perspective with some new numbers, so it is not at all beating a dead horse.


Sure, but I'm just saying it is nice to have a semblance of facts/data to base it on. The more the merrier. It's like someone walking into a Christian Church and saying, "Dude, I found Christ's tomb and there ain't no body!"


Sounds like you're both sort of saying the same things...Yes this is an old concept, but nice interesting to have better/new hard evidence.


lol well seeing as how i am not arguing with romo and happen to agree with him, i dont mind it at all! :P but if your point was that having both romo and me in this thread = redundant, then shame on you! we both bring so much personal flair and eccentricities to threads we visit :X

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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby nOO law » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:26 pm

romothesavior wrote:
powerlawyer06 wrote:The reason why I am underwhelmed by the article is because I feel like every TLS user has heard this one million times. We are all more informed than the average law school applicant. I feel like this is a dead horse we are beating.

Posting another "law schools lie" article on TLS is like going into a christian church and saying "Have you guys heard about this Jesus guy?"

No, actually it's not. That'd be like reading an article talking about some breakthrough in evolutionary biology and saying, "Ugh, evolution is so old news. This is like beating a dead horse!"

I'm probably one of the most pessimistic on TLS re: job prospects for law students, and these numbers even shock (and scare) me. I knew that high paying jobs are scarce. I've knew that legal employment is tough. But 50% of law school graduates or less getting real, full-time legal jobs? That's pretty crazy. Also, yes, the article's main conclusion (law schools number fudge) isn't new. But it does a better job of showing how than I've seen before, and it also does a really good job of breaking apart the most recent NALP data.

So while you're right that this is an old subject of conversation around here, it is a new perspective with some new numbers, so it is not at all beating a dead horse.



So tl;dr... Are you calling this article a breakthrough?

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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby DoubleChecks » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:26 pm

aliarrow wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
powerlawyer06 wrote:The reason why I am underwhelmed by the article is because I feel like every TLS user has heard this one million times. We are all more informed than the average law school applicant. I feel like this is a dead horse we are beating.

Posting another "law schools lie" article on TLS is like going into a christian church and saying "Have you guys heard about this Jesus guy?"

No, actually it's not. That'd be like reading an article talking about some breakthrough in evolutionary biology and saying, "Ugh, evolution is so old news. This is like beating a dead horse!"

I'm probably one of the most pessimistic on TLS re: job prospects for law students, and these numbers even shock (and scare) me. I knew that high paying jobs are scarce. I've knew that legal employment is tough. But 50% of law school graduates or less getting real, full-time legal jobs? That's pretty crazy. Also, yes, the article's main conclusion (law schools number fudge) isn't new. But it does a better job of showing how than I've seen before, and it also does a really good job of breaking apart the most recent NALP data.

So while you're right that this is an old subject of conversation around here, it is a new perspective with some new numbers, so it is not at all beating a dead horse.


Would you really be that surprised to learn someone at Median at say Cardozo or UC Hastings isn't working in a full time legal job?
That's why I don't think this is that shocking, it just phrases things differently and uses a different approach.


you were more pessimistic than me lol

and 62.9% overall is surprisingly low for me...like in a way, it is not shocking and is rather expected, yet at the same time...

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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby DoubleChecks » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:27 pm

nOO law wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
powerlawyer06 wrote:The reason why I am underwhelmed by the article is because I feel like every TLS user has heard this one million times. We are all more informed than the average law school applicant. I feel like this is a dead horse we are beating.

Posting another "law schools lie" article on TLS is like going into a christian church and saying "Have you guys heard about this Jesus guy?"

No, actually it's not. That'd be like reading an article talking about some breakthrough in evolutionary biology and saying, "Ugh, evolution is so old news. This is like beating a dead horse!"

I'm probably one of the most pessimistic on TLS re: job prospects for law students, and these numbers even shock (and scare) me. I knew that high paying jobs are scarce. I've knew that legal employment is tough. But 50% of law school graduates or less getting real, full-time legal jobs? That's pretty crazy. Also, yes, the article's main conclusion (law schools number fudge) isn't new. But it does a better job of showing how than I've seen before, and it also does a really good job of breaking apart the most recent NALP data.

So while you're right that this is an old subject of conversation around here, it is a new perspective with some new numbers, so it is not at all beating a dead horse.



So tl;dr... Are you calling this article a breakthrough?


tl;dr -- no

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Re: Article: How Law Schools Misrepresent Employment Prospects

Postby ThomasMN » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:38 pm

Someone should hit up TNR for hardcore plagiarism. I swear I read an article with the same facts, though somewhat less vitriolic, months ago. It throws around a lot of anecdotal evidence to create a storm of "controversy." I have to agree with the posters above: just another person stirring the pot that going to a ttt law school, or even a "t50" school, is probably not a good idea if you it will leave you $100,000 - $250,000 in debt.

That being said, the job market BLOWS, PERIOD. I know this article is old: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/25/busin ... djobs.html . We are in a general crunch, and the sad reality is that most people who are entering the job market right now or who entered the job market over the last few years are in a generally bad spot. Some majors are certainly better off than others. I know that Gallup has the U.S. underemployment rate at somewhere around %20. That does not mean don't be a lawyer, it means make a smart, educated choice when it comes to attending law school. I think a lot of TLS posters do exactly that.




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