Misdemeanors and Law School

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txadv11
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Re: Misdemeanors and Law School

Postby txadv11 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:14 pm

AreJay711 wrote:
flexityflex86 wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:I didn't read this thread but it looked good and self righteous. If they were all dismissed it probably won't show up anywhere. Do what you want with that info.

Ehh that's still lying brah.


What is? Giving him some info? I just put it there for his consideration with no attached advice.

FWIW my dismissed ticket still showed up when I asked the court for a record.

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dood
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Re: Misdemeanors and Law School

Postby dood » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:15 pm

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Last edited by dood on Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

flexityflex86
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Re: Misdemeanors and Law School

Postby flexityflex86 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:15 pm

If you could somehow write this in a way they're all explained by one addendum, that would be good.

Show what you learned. You seem to have taken responsibility which is good. You also have been clean for 3 years which shows u may have matured.

I'd get an LOR from someone who can verify your new maturity.

Also, if the app says convicted, you don't need to disclose.

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AreJay711
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Re: Misdemeanors and Law School

Postby AreJay711 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:18 pm

dood wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:I didn't read this thread but it looked good and self righteous. If they were all dismissed it probably won't show up anywhere. Do what you want with that info.


quite the opposite. the bar will look at ur nationwide rap sheet at the DOJ, which lists every crime u've been charged with, regardless of dismissal, expungement, etc. u can check ur record using the procedure here (requires ur fingerprints and about 4 weeks):
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/g ... cgbrochure


Well if they use that then obviously you should disclose. My local area doesn't keep a record of dismissed cases but for so long but every area is differnet and that database obviously won't erase it. Thanks for setting me straight on that one.

flexityflex86
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Re: Misdemeanors and Law School

Postby flexityflex86 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:27 pm

AreJay711 wrote:
dood wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:I didn't read this thread but it looked good and self righteous. If they were all dismissed it probably won't show up anywhere. Do what you want with that info.


quite the opposite. the bar will look at ur nationwide rap sheet at the DOJ, which lists every crime u've been charged with, regardless of dismissal, expungement, etc. u can check ur record using the procedure here (requires ur fingerprints and about 4 weeks):
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/g ... cgbrochure


Well if they use that then obviously you should disclose. My local area doesn't keep a record of dismissed cases but for so long but every area is differnet and that database obviously won't erase it. Thanks for setting me straight on that one.

i don't really think the law schools will care sooooo much. the shoplifting might look bad, because it shows dishonesty and law schools have expensive shit.

also how were they dismissed if u had to perform certain duties as punishment?

uncjtd20
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Re: Misdemeanors and Law School

Postby uncjtd20 » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:39 am

For the record, I'm planning on disclosing everything if asked. If only asked for convictions, I won't have too much too worry about until it comes time for C & F.

I forgot to mention that I'm currently overseas teaching English, so going to talk to a lawyer is a somewhat difficult proposition, although I suppose I could have someone go on my behalf.

And believe me, I am in total agreement that my shoplifting charge is/looks the worst.

My thanks to all of you that have offered (constructive) advice

PleaseHelpThanks
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Re: Misdemeanors and Law School

Postby PleaseHelpThanks » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:43 am

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Last edited by PleaseHelpThanks on Thu May 19, 2011 7:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

uncjtd20
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Re: Misdemeanors and Law School

Postby uncjtd20 » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:48 am

PleaseHelpThanks wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:
flexityflex86 wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:I didn't read this thread but it looked good and self righteous. If they were all dismissed it probably won't show up anywhere. Do what you want with that info.

Ehh that's still lying brah.


What is? Giving him some info? I just put it there for his consideration with no attached advice.


Well it was the wrong info. If a case is dismissed it can 100% be looked at on the internet in about 2.5 seconds. Do what you want with that info.

FWIW, I, a measly 0L, can look up your case right now from my computer.


Yea, I'm completely aware you can see any disposition of my cases besides expungements, which I might still have to disclose depending on what a given application requests.

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Ty Webb
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Re: Misdemeanors and Law School

Postby Ty Webb » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:55 am

flexityflex86 wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:
dood wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:I didn't read this thread but it looked good and self righteous. If they were all dismissed it probably won't show up anywhere. Do what you want with that info.


quite the opposite. the bar will look at ur nationwide rap sheet at the DOJ, which lists every crime u've been charged with, regardless of dismissal, expungement, etc. u can check ur record using the procedure here (requires ur fingerprints and about 4 weeks):
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/g ... cgbrochure


Well if they use that then obviously you should disclose. My local area doesn't keep a record of dismissed cases but for so long but every area is differnet and that database obviously won't erase it. Thanks for setting me straight on that one.

i don't really think the law schools will care sooooo much. the shoplifting might look bad, because it shows dishonesty and law schools have expensive shit.

also how were they dismissed if u had to perform certain duties as punishment?


Lots of pre-trial intervention programs offer to dismiss charges if a person completes community service, writes a letter of apology, undergoes counseling, etc.

uncjtd20
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Re: Misdemeanors and Law School

Postby uncjtd20 » Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:45 am

dood wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:I didn't read this thread but it looked good and self righteous. If they were all dismissed it probably won't show up anywhere. Do what you want with that info.


quite the opposite. the bar will look at ur nationwide rap sheet at the DOJ, which lists every crime u've been charged with, regardless of dismissal, expungement, etc. u can check ur record using the procedure here (requires ur fingerprints and about 4 weeks):
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/g ... cgbrochure


^ This is false. I've had an FBI fingerprint background check for my current job overseas, and my rap sheet came bank completely clean. The reason? The FBI only has on file offenses which are connected to a set of fingerprints. Therefore it's up to the state agency making the arrest to not only take the detainee's fingerprints, but also send them to the Feds to have on file. This explains why I've been charged with the aforementioned offenses, but didn't appear to have a record in the FBI database. The Bar's investigation process is certainly more thorough.

However, I do appreciate you discrediting yourself. It makes your whole, "u'r fucked and will continue to be fucked for the rest of your life" post a lot more comical.

uncjtd20
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Re: Misdemeanors and Law School

Postby uncjtd20 » Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:48 am

SHarry3666 wrote:This might be helpful:

From the AD interview with Jannell Roberts @ Loyola Law School

AD How should an applicant explain criminal or academic probationary issues in the application? Do you recommend an addendum for this?

JR I definitely recommend an addendum. In fact, we require it in such circumstances. There is a part of our application that specifically addresses criminal charges or any disciplinary sanctions in their academic history -- then we require an addendum. If a candidate has one of these, then they must submit an explanation. We care about the applicant’s explanation about whatever that instance was.

Of course, it makes applicants nervous if they have something in their past that they may not be particularly proud of, but I think the key is for that person to be entirely honest about what happened and to show an appropriate level of remorse and regret. If they do that, then the admissions committee will take that into consideration. Bad things in a person’s past are not immediately prohibitive -- it only becomes a problem when the applicant is either dishonest by failing to reveal the incident(s) or where it’s clear that the person is not giving all of the relevant information surrounding that incident. Because the person appears evasive and dishonest it becomes problematic and, again, these are not qualities you want in someone you’re considering for admission to a law school.

AD And it also presents a problem for them down the road when they go before the character and fitness committee of the bar.

JR Absolutely. Which is another thing that I think applicants don’t understand. As thorough as we are in our review of an application for admission, the bar examiners are even more thorough. They will even ask about expunged charges or convictions -- every single thing that the applicant may have been involved in. So, the earlier a student reports it in the admissions process, the less likely it will cause a problem later on down the road. Even things that might seem minor that a candidate doesn’t report on the law school application, they might get discovered when they apply to become members of the bar. Then the applicant’s non-disclosure becomes the issue and this can really cause problems with him or her getting certified to practice law.

AD From your description, it sounds like they need to report any “charges” regardless of whether the applicant was actually ever convicted. Is that correct?

JR We specifically ask for charges where the person has pled, settled, or were found guilty. In those cases, we’d want to know what happened. If the charges were dropped, then at our particular school, we don’t necessarily have to know about the incident. It’s important to note that if the person is applying to several schools, the other schools might have disclosure standards that are very different than ours. Law schools purposely craft their disclosure standards based on their own state’s bar requirements or that school’s requirements. So, it’s in the applicant’s best interest to read that section of the application very carefully and make sure they respond accordingly. Law school applications are by no means uniform -- especially when it comes to disclosing these types of things.


Thanks man. This is an excellent piece, and more or less serves to confirm what I expected: the admission of the offenses being more important than the offenses themselves

03121202698008
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Re: Misdemeanors and Law School

Postby 03121202698008 » Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:47 pm

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Last edited by 03121202698008 on Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

pasteurizedmilk
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Re: Misdemeanors and Law School

Postby pasteurizedmilk » Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:56 pm

dood wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:I didn't read this thread but it looked good and self righteous. If they were all dismissed it probably won't show up anywhere. Do what you want with that info.


quite the opposite. the bar will look at ur nationwide rap sheet at the DOJ, which lists every crime u've been charged with, regardless of dismissal, expungement, etc. u can check ur record using the procedure here (requires ur fingerprints and about 4 weeks):
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/g ... cgbrochure

It lists every crime that: 1) you were booked for; 2) the booking involved fingerprints, and; 3) the police department transfers the fingerprints in a quality, readable way. Any one of these three can not occur for any given arrest.

OP - talk to a C&F attorney who practices in the state you hope to land in. After acceptance to a school, you can also contact ethics counsel at the school that accepted you and ask for their opinion as well.

Ignore d00d. He's speaking of things he clearly knows little about, or is just trolling you for fun. He's not subtle with his trolling - e.g., he's run the "if you have less than a 700 credit score you'll be dinged at C&F" schtick a few times. Anything he says you should basically just disregard entirely.

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KingMenes
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Re: Misdemeanors and Law School

Postby KingMenes » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:56 pm

Before you consult an attorney, you should contact the C&F Boards located in those states you want to practice law in. For example, an anonymous call would likely put you in contact with someone more informed about these issues. I'm sure they receive calls or emails from curious JD candidates every day inquiring about misdemeanor criminal records. Likewise, the state statutes will provide plenty of information on the character and fitness rules as required by the laws of that state.

By the way, here is an interesting story about a guy who went to prison, law school, and is sitting for the bar in Florida:

--LinkRemoved--

too old for this sh*
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Re: Misdemeanors and Law School

Postby too old for this sh* » Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:56 pm

look, the reality is that there are a LOT of attorneys out there who are admitted to the Bar with felony drug offenses. They may have a period of probationary admission with special conditions (I know one who just completed that with the Bar here), but they were still admitted.

As to databases, not all offenses are reported to either the State CIC or to NCIC, but it is usually safer to act on the presumption that they will be there. Even expunged offenses are not always removed from the record. I have posted in the past about a client we had where the file we got from a North Texas agency included an offense report that was 'expunged.' yeah it referenced the expunction and redacted his name, but the fact was that we got it on a simple file request for ALL records related to our client. And if that could still be tracked, then it tells you expunged files don't just go 'poof.'

Also on databases, a full rap sheet shows more than just convictions. We have a lot of clients where the conviction datasheet is empty but the rap will have a series of arrests that were later dismissed or resulted in an acquittal.

Counsel in the appropriate jurisdiction who handle C&F issues can give a much better feel as to the tenor of the Bar where you hope to practice, but when you can have peeps with a felony conviction who are admitted, then a series of transgressions as a minor should not be the 'ur fuct' be-all, end-all to your prospective career.

flexityflex86
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Re: Misdemeanors and Law School

Postby flexityflex86 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:53 am

As somebody who overcame heavy disciplinary action to get into some really great schools with really great offers, the best advise I would give to anyone is as follows:

Disciplinary action and applying to law school is quite analogous to being a professional athlete who faced disciplinary action.

If Albert Pujols were arrested today, and spent the rest of the season in a federal prison (but was released next year) would this influence his contract for next year? The most likely scenario is yes, but it wouldn't influence it too much. He would still likely be the highest paid first baseman in the league, but he might not receive the record breaking contract he seeks.

In the NFL, Vick's "baggage" certainly played a role in his only receiving a one year offer. That said it is still an above average contract for a starter, and there were other factors involved (older, being injury prone, etc.) Further, his actions greatly angered the public, and might actually drive some fans away where as a law school applicants baggage is likely under the radar - i.e. the law school isn't hurt. Still, no one will argue Vick would not have made more money had he never went to jail.

So the answer is yes, there will be an impact on applications for your misdemeanors. Some schools will flat out reject you, because of them much like some professional sport teams flat out reject a player who has some character concerns as it goes against their team philosophy. However, this does not mean you'll automatically be shunned out of the t-14. The fact is you won't be. Different schools and different evaluators have different philosophies, and there's nothing like "this is Columbia - we only accept students who have not had legal trouble." This is much like how some top sport franchises won't take on character concerns, while others really just evaluate the athlete as a player on the field.

Also, like sports talent does supersede character. There are many great character ball players who can't get a job, while Ray Lewis who may have killed a man was the highest paid defensive player for a while after this - nobody mentioned what he did as all they could focus on was that 2000 superbowl. Law school is similar. Just like how that great applicant who saved orphans and started a charity with a 2.5 and 145 will get rejected from School A, an applicant with a 4.0 and 180 who did something egregious will likely be too good to pass up.

Of course, people change and with the exception of a school like an Illinois who is vocal in saying they want people who have made smart choices from a young age, most do forgive mistakes if they believe an applicant really changed. A player like Josh Hamilton comes to mind as someone who made some pretty egregious mistakes, but nobody would argue his past crack addiction will stand in the way of a 20 million dollar contract (his back problems might!) Rather, some teams might even see his journey of overcoming his drug addiction as a great marketing ploy, and many fans like him more because of it - if anything he's at least more interesting, a trait that top law schools favor a great deal.




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